Granatelli Turbo Install
11/29/07, 10:03 PM
#221
Former Vendor
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the same kit with the same turbo that everyone gets. We need to look it this - the turbo should make more boost and full boost by 3500. Also it should not jump up to 13.4 psi - I still can't figure out why Scott did not call me while they were experiencing issues on the dyno
11/29/07, 10:13 PM
#222
Bullitt Member
Join Date: October 8, 2007
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is what I don't get. Most people, if they want more, will go get it tuned past the "canned" tune. In this case you knew this up-front. So why again was the tune so bad to begin with, stumbling ??. Yes a "canned" tune is gonna be conservative, ala Ford's Whipple tune, but shouldn't it work out of the box ? Shouldn't someone not HAVE to get it dyno tuned to prevent the car from falling on it's face ?
What if something happened and a guy, myself perhaps, blew his wad on what's in the box and has to live with it for a coupla months. It would make sense to me that out-of-box experience should be important. The car should work without someone worrying about blowing everything up until he can get it on a dyno.
What am I missing here ?
What if something happened and a guy, myself perhaps, blew his wad on what's in the box and has to live with it for a coupla months. It would make sense to me that out-of-box experience should be important. The car should work without someone worrying about blowing everything up until he can get it on a dyno.
What am I missing here ?
11/29/07, 10:27 PM
#223
Team Mustang Source
Its not about wanting more, its about being smart and safe. Lets say you, with a bolt on car, ordered a tune from Joe Sack installed it and ran into some issues. Lets say your car was rich off idle then went lean on top or had a little too much spark. So from the spark and lean condition it rattled up top. On your car no big deal call Joe and get him to fix it. On a FI car you have VERY little room to play with instead of making a call to Joe for a new tune you’re making a call to Boss 330 for a new motor. The simple fact is EVERY car is different and will respond differently. Anything over 400hp IMO must be custom tuned by someone that truly knows what he is doing. What is 300-600 more when you look at the big picture? There is really no kit that makes more than 400 hp that’s just a “fire and forget” job. The Whipple tune from Ford has been very lean on several cars. This is just a fact of life with a FI car.
Originally Posted by gms.com
- 450RWHP on 91 octane and up to 500RWHP on 93 octane @ 8 to 10PSI on otherwise stock 2005-08 Ford Mustang GTs
- EASY bolt-on installation
- 100% COMPLETE up to 480RWHP
- SUPPORTS up to 800RWHP. NOTE: this will require extensive engine, fuel system and powertrain modifications and precision tuning on a chassis dyno).
That being said, when I get FI, because I'm on TMS and because I do my research I will get a custom tune. I feel for the guy that doesn't read these threads, he's screwed.
Originally Posted by google.com
Granatelli Intercooled Single Turbo System 05-07 Mustang GT - $5,400.00 - V8Power.com
Very first item listed when searching for 05 mustang turbo.
11/29/07, 10:34 PM
#224
I'm with habu on this 'canned tune' concern.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
11/30/07, 12:48 AM
#225
Legacy TMS Member
Join Date: May 24, 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 7,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah you have a very valid point. But it's not how it's sold on the site.
Unless it's noted in the package that is delivered, the site makes it all sound cut and dry. Not everyone with $6K logs into these forums and does his research. Luckily Tom had a plan in place. If I'm some poor schmuck that just poured his x-mas bonus into something I found on the web to later find out, yeah you really need to add 500-600 bucks to that total but we're not gonna tell you about it up front, dummy. I'd be ****ed.
That being said, when I get FI, because I'm on TMS and because I do my research I will get a custom tune. I feel for the guy that doesn't read these threads, he's screwed.
Very first item listed when searching for 05 mustang turbo.
Unless it's noted in the package that is delivered, the site makes it all sound cut and dry. Not everyone with $6K logs into these forums and does his research. Luckily Tom had a plan in place. If I'm some poor schmuck that just poured his x-mas bonus into something I found on the web to later find out, yeah you really need to add 500-600 bucks to that total but we're not gonna tell you about it up front, dummy. I'd be ****ed.
That being said, when I get FI, because I'm on TMS and because I do my research I will get a custom tune. I feel for the guy that doesn't read these threads, he's screwed.
Very first item listed when searching for 05 mustang turbo.
I'm with habu on this 'canned tune' concern.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
11/30/07, 08:11 AM
#226
Former Vendor
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless it's noted in the package that is delivered, the site makes it all sound cut and dry. Not everyone with $6K logs into these forums and does his research. Luckily Tom had a plan in place. If I'm some poor schmuck that just poured his x-mas bonus into something I found on the web to later find out, yeah you really need to add 500-600 bucks to that total but we're not gonna tell you about it up front, dummy. I'd be ****ed.
That being said, when I get FI, because I'm on TMS and because I do my research I will get a custom tune. I feel for the guy that doesn't read these threads, he's screwed.
Very first item listed when searching for 05 mustang turbo.
That being said, when I get FI, because I'm on TMS and because I do my research I will get a custom tune. I feel for the guy that doesn't read these threads, he's screwed.
Very first item listed when searching for 05 mustang turbo.
OK - but there is 2 sides (or more) to every story.
1. When Tom purchased this kit direct from Granatelli - we told him going in what to expect
2. Tom said he lived in FL and we said Great call Scott Beer. Scott Beer furnish the original tune from day one - this tune was intended to "get Tom started" not get the car started but get him on the road so he could drive it and get him to Scott and the dyno where it could be made perfect.
3. Granted Scott missed on the base tune. And while I don’t discount this was a hassle for Tom. Come on guys we all make mistakes, the car started and ran, it was just too rich.
4. The fact that Toms boost curve looks upside down and is way sluggish down low could also be the reason why the tune was off.
There are many factors that go into making solid safe turbo kits and proper tuning. GMS and a few of my competitors do a great job at servicing the end user and we do what it takes to make things right. – In this case we made things right as well. Quite honestly there are a few other things that Tom and I went over “off the record” because Tom was a super person about it. He knew if he said I got screwed out of a hose clamp or I wish they included 10 zip ties instead of 8 – there would be 5 or 6 posts from others saying how cheap the manufactures is for not throwing in a few extra parts “just in case”.
In closing – Everyone that order a kit from GMS is told up front they can buy the kit with or without all the tuning stuff. Tom chose to have his car custom tuned by Scott Beer. Scott sent a base tune to get him started.
11/30/07, 09:58 AM
#228
Cobra Member
Join Date: May 17, 2007
Location: Texa$
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with habu on this 'canned tune' concern.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
I understand the importance of getting a custom dyno tune on a FI car for both performance and safety. However, a supplied conservative canned tune should suffice no matter the variations between production engines; basically be drivable.
Guess the guy who orders a FI unit (like this turbo for example) that lives in BFE, USA (or worst.. outside the country) that doesn't live near an experienced dyno tuner is SOL.
FI is a different animal that’s for sure and probably runs to a different set of rules no doubt and that probably equals, most of the time, fine tuning always. But if the marketing promo material says FI works with canned tune provided then it probably should without to much tweaking by the installer (whoever that is) If that is unreasonable then the marketing material needs to be changed to properly reflect what is the expected needs/results and requirements. And if that’s a need for special fine tuning vs. canned then great, all parties know up front and all are off to a great start and a great buying/selling experience.
But hey JMHO and really not trying to pile on or flame, really.
11/30/07, 12:31 PM
#229
Former Vendor
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a tune done by Kurgan Motor Sports for Speed Inc in Chicago. 11psi. There is no spooling issue with the turbo. We just need to figure out why Trooper is having an issue. It is unique to his car not the kit
11/30/07, 12:40 PM
#231
Former Vendor
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
+4 ON this and I hear what you are saying Joe (GMS) but I totally agree with Brian. Base package, base can should work without hiccups regardless of what you and Tom worked off the record.
FI is a different animal that’s for sure and probably runs to a different set of rules no doubt and that probably equals, most of the time, fine tuning always. But if the marketing promo material says FI works with canned tune provided then it probably should without to much tweaking by the installer (whoever that is) If that is unreasonable then the marketing material needs to be changed to properly reflect what is the expected needs/results and requirements. And if that’s a need for special fine tuning vs. canned then great, all parties know up front and all are off to a great start and a great buying/selling experience.
But hey JMHO and really not trying to pile on or flame, really.
FI is a different animal that’s for sure and probably runs to a different set of rules no doubt and that probably equals, most of the time, fine tuning always. But if the marketing promo material says FI works with canned tune provided then it probably should without to much tweaking by the installer (whoever that is) If that is unreasonable then the marketing material needs to be changed to properly reflect what is the expected needs/results and requirements. And if that’s a need for special fine tuning vs. canned then great, all parties know up front and all are off to a great start and a great buying/selling experience.
But hey JMHO and really not trying to pile on or flame, really.
Lastly Tom purchased a 7psi kit and has 13psi at teh top something very less at the bottom. So there is more wrong here then a small tune up. If this was the first kit we sold and the first that was reported on I could see the concern. But my kit has proven to be awsome on so many other cars - I think I have earned the respect from Tom who purchased our kit over all others
. I am not hiding or leaving any stone unturned - we will figure it out
11/30/07, 02:41 PM
#232
GTR Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: January 26, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tom and I worked nothing off the record like that. What I am saying is Tom has not nit-picked the kit apart - he has been honest good and bad and likes what he has. He just feels a bit let down. I do to at 13 psi his car should be up over 100 more then it is. WE WILL FIGURE IT OUT. I will be in Orlando Tuesday to Saturday next week. I don't know exact how far Tom is from there but I hope to meet up. As for the tune being off - Tom said the tune was a bit fat - OK Sorry but don't forget the other 200+ kits that are out there that the tune was spot on at 7psi
Lastly Tom purchased a 7psi kit and has 13psi at teh top something very less at the bottom. So there is more wrong here then a small tune up. If this was the first kit we sold and the first that was reported on I could see the concern. But my kit has proven to be awsome on so many other cars - I think I have earned the respect from Tom who purchased our kit over all others . I am not hiding or leaving any stone unturned - we will figure it out
Lastly Tom purchased a 7psi kit and has 13psi at teh top something very less at the bottom. So there is more wrong here then a small tune up. If this was the first kit we sold and the first that was reported on I could see the concern. But my kit has proven to be awsome on so many other cars - I think I have earned the respect from Tom who purchased our kit over all others
. I am not hiding or leaving any stone unturned - we will figure it outUpset? No. Doesn't solve anything.
Let down? Sure (for now). Figures I'd have the odd-ball car.
Happy with the customer service? Heck yeah!
Happy with the car? Put it this way - it's awesome now! It can only get better when we figure this out!
J.R., I'm right near Orlando... let me know when you can meet!
11/30/07, 05:28 PM
#235
Cobra Member
Join Date: May 17, 2007
Location: Texa$
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unique to Toms GT or something else...............
I'm sure before this is all said and done this will be all sorted out, if we know Tom like we do
11/30/07, 05:44 PM
#236
GTR Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: January 26, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do!
We're working away at it...
I've already verified that I have no intake leaks from the turbo, through the intercooler, to the throttle body via loose/missing hose clamps. What, ME miss a hose clamp??
P'shaw!
I verified via vacuum/boost gauge that the blow off valve IS seeing vacuum AND boost like it should. I hooked one up temporarily to confirm this.
Tomorrow morning, with my wife at the throttle
I will visually verify that the blow off valve is opening and closing properly. Also, I will verify that air is coming out of the blow off valve during the decel of revs from 3000 to 2000 RPM via the "hand in front of the opening of the blow off valve method". This test should confirm or deny a bad BOV.
And here's the major change I will be making: With the consent of Turbonetics, I will be hooking the SIDE port of the waste gate up to manifold vacuum. I do understand that this will limit boost much lower than 13.4 psi. A good thing! When vacuum in the manifold line changes to boost, it will aide the opening of the wastegate's spring. Therefore, peak psi should be in the 8-10 psi range, and not the 13-14 psi range. What I don't understand, is whether this will help the turbo spool faster... and if it does, HOW it does that.
J.R. / Russ / Anybody - please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this!
We're working away at it...
I've already verified that I have no intake leaks from the turbo, through the intercooler, to the throttle body via loose/missing hose clamps. What, ME miss a hose clamp??
P'shaw!I verified via vacuum/boost gauge that the blow off valve IS seeing vacuum AND boost like it should. I hooked one up temporarily to confirm this.
Tomorrow morning, with my wife at the throttle
I will visually verify that the blow off valve is opening and closing properly. Also, I will verify that air is coming out of the blow off valve during the decel of revs from 3000 to 2000 RPM via the "hand in front of the opening of the blow off valve method". This test should confirm or deny a bad BOV.And here's the major change I will be making: With the consent of Turbonetics, I will be hooking the SIDE port of the waste gate up to manifold vacuum. I do understand that this will limit boost much lower than 13.4 psi. A good thing!
When vacuum in the manifold line changes to boost, it will aide the opening of the wastegate's spring. Therefore, peak psi should be in the 8-10 psi range, and not the 13-14 psi range. What I don't understand, is whether this will help the turbo spool faster... and if it does, HOW it does that.J.R. / Russ / Anybody - please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this!
11/30/07, 09:58 PM
#237
Bullitt Member
Join Date: October 8, 2007
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully when this is all sorted out someone can post the findings..........
Unique to Toms GT or something else...............
I think most will agree that every engine is different or unique in its own nature but the bottom line is can a caned tune be supplied for this kit that supplies basic drivable programming? Is that whats being advertised for this kit, a basic tune thats totally drivable........
Seems like the given with all this is if you choose to install this kit or any FI type kit that you will be driven to always have it custom tuned, that you just can't install the kit, load the supplied programming and have it be drivable, or can you? I'm getting confused trying to sort this out ha
I mean most of us here are fairly savoy, some much more then others (you know who you are lol) and realize when you complete the install you need to fine tune the kit to maximize the end results to avoid leaving horsepower on the table as they say. But there are a bunch of us out there who aren't in the increased savoy mode and as such would just install the kit and that would be it, at least it unless it was so bad it was like driving a bucking bronco (errr Mustang)
Sorry but not flaming here, it just doesn't add up for me, but I'm sure before this is all said and done this will be all sorted out, if we know Tom like we do
Probably should just keep my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard but thats no fun and don't all pile on, I can't take it
Unique to Toms GT or something else...............
I think most will agree that every engine is different or unique in its own nature but the bottom line is can a caned tune be supplied for this kit that supplies basic drivable programming? Is that whats being advertised for this kit, a basic tune thats totally drivable........
Seems like the given with all this is if you choose to install this kit or any FI type kit that you will be driven to always have it custom tuned, that you just can't install the kit, load the supplied programming and have it be drivable, or can you? I'm getting confused trying to sort this out ha
I mean most of us here are fairly savoy, some much more then others (you know who you are lol) and realize when you complete the install you need to fine tune the kit to maximize the end results to avoid leaving horsepower on the table as they say. But there are a bunch of us out there who aren't in the increased savoy mode and as such would just install the kit and that would be it, at least it unless it was so bad it was like driving a bucking bronco (errr Mustang)
Sorry but not flaming here, it just doesn't add up for me, but I'm sure before this is all said and done this will be all sorted out, if we know Tom like we do
Probably should just keep my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard but thats no fun and don't all pile on, I can't take it
JR did you make any modifications to the kits at all that would necessitate a touchup of the tune?
12/1/07, 11:56 AM
#239
Team Mustang Source
That sums it up pretty good...
Upset? No. Doesn't solve anything.
Let down? Sure (for now). Figures I'd have the odd-ball car.
Happy with the customer service? Heck yeah!
Happy with the car? Put it this way - it's awesome now! It can only get better when we figure this out!
J.R., I'm right near Orlando... let me know when you can meet!
Upset? No. Doesn't solve anything.
Let down? Sure (for now). Figures I'd have the odd-ball car.
Happy with the customer service? Heck yeah!
Happy with the car? Put it this way - it's awesome now! It can only get better when we figure this out!
J.R., I'm right near Orlando... let me know when you can meet!
