Granatelli

YA - I said look the the intercooler to see if the welds split. The is really the only thing I did not look at when I saw his car. If the turbo is bad it has a 1 year warranty from Turbonetic and I will personally take it there and get it replaced. But I need that one back. Same goes for the BOV and Waste Gate

Granatelli

It was a pure guess but what I said was perhaps the impeller is slipping on the drive shaft.

89Trooper

I'll be able to inspect the intercooler a lot better now with the nose back off. Am I looking for hair-line cracks, or will it be pretty obvious? I'll have my dad look over every weld, too... so we will have a "second set of eyes" - another Disney term.

24 hours from now, I'll know a lot more. I will post all my findings on the intercooler, WG and BOV.

Like I said, for my own curiosity to be satisfied, I want to see what a boost controller does before I start taking off parts. This is only a few days away.

Then we can make an educated decision on what is most likely to be defective.

Boltzman

When you work for the"MOUSE" whats another grand?
My point is ,these shops have all the equipment to help troubleshoot problems and you receive it the way its supposed to be. I do envy your knowledge but don't have a lick of patience.

89Trooper

When you work for the"MOUSE" whats another grand?
And I just got a promotion, too! I used to work on the rides... then I ordered parts for the rides... now I'll tell people to work on the rides!

My point is ,these shops have all the equipment to help troubleshoot problems and you receive it the way its supposed to be. I do envy your knowledge but don't have a lick of patience.
I wouldn't have it any other way. I will know SOOOOO much more about turbos... and waste gates... and blow off valves... and boost controllers... after this is all over!

Granatelli

Hairline - if it were huge you would hear it when you accelerate - trust I want to know as much as you what the heck is going on

89Trooper

We'll look as closely as possible.

And, I'll give you as much info (written, pictures, video) as I can.

USMC0341

Congrats Tom!!

65sohc

The info on the HKS BOV is impressive. That is one killer valve and I think the chance that it is the culprit is pretty slim. It is designed specifically to eliminate loss of pressure under boost. Regardless of what anybody says the wastegate valve does not instantaneously go from full closed to full open like an on/off switch in the absence of a boost controller. It opens progressively but that is completely normal and the effect on rate of spool is modest though noticeable. Lack of a boost controller would not account for the severe lack of midrange torque that Tom has. My money is still on some sort of leak downstream of the compressor discharge. A visual inspection might provide the answer but not necessarily. Cracks can be very difficult to visualize unless the system is pressurized because at rest the metal will contract and the opening virtually disappear. One interesting way I tracked down leaks in my Supra was to release A/C refrigerant into the intake system and use an A/C system leak detector. The detector is extremely sensitive and will react to a few molecules of gas making it especially handy in tracing leaks in hard to reach areas. But with an air compressor you can close off the intake, pressurize the system, and if there are signicant leaks you'll hear them. I think a bad turbo, while possible, is also unlikely. It would probably make noise and you would see evidence of the impellers making contact with the housing. Turbos are awfully rugged and it would seem inconceiveable that one could have passed Turbonetics' inspection process and spontaneously failed as soon as it was installed.

turbo05gt

Id really like to see the AR of his turbo.

65sohc

Below is an excerpt from Wikipedia which confirms exactly my own experience when testing my wastegate:
Principles of operation

Without a boost controller, air pressure is fed from the charge air (compressed side) of the turbocharger directly to the wastegate actuator via a vacuum hose. This air pressure can come from anywhere on the intake after the turbo, including after the throttle body, though that is less common. This air pressure pushes against the force of a spring located in the wastegate actuator to allow the wastegate to open and bypass exhaust gas from reaching the turbine wheel. In this simple configuration, the spring's springrate and preload determine how much boost pressure the system will achieve. Springs are classified by the boost pressure they typically achieve, such as a "7 psi spring" that will allow the turbocharger to reach equilibrium at approximately 7 psi.
One primary problem of this system is the wastegate will start to open well before the actual desired boost pressure is achieved. This negatively affects the threshold of boost onset and also increases turbocharger lag. For instance, a spring rated at 7 psi may allow the wastegate to begin to (but not fully) open at as little as 3.5 psi.

89Trooper

Thanks! Not sure what you call them at Disneyland, but I'll be a Service Manager... or a stupidvisor.

From inspecting the BOV and reading the info on it, I also think it is unlikely that it is bad. I guess older designs would tend to bleed open under boost, but, like you said, this one is designed to seal itself shut the higher the boost gets. I'm also hoping the turbo is fine.

Turbonetics checked the serial numbers and they say it is a .81 ratio. I would love to see it stamped on the turbo somewhere, too, to verify. I need to take that heat shield off to see if I can locate a number somewhere.

Turbo05GT and I spent awhile talking on the phone. I'm really still up in the air on whether the spring is cracking open early. He has twin turbos, but to keep it simple, I'll talk about his system like it is a single:

His WG is hooked up to the intake manifold, through a boost controller, to the SIDE port of the WG. So, the WG basically has NO connection all the way up to 10psi. At 10psi, the boost controller allows that amount of pressure into the side of the WG to help open the spring.

My WG is hooked up from the intake manifold directly to the SIDE port of the WG. So, his is waiting for that 10psi limit to help open the spring, where mine is always getting that help to open. This should explain a lot right here: He is turning on that "switch" at 10psi by applying boost to the SIDE port of the WG. I'm turning that "switch" on the second I start making boost.

In addition, if his spring is cracking open as stated above, then he is also losing pressure and getting some turbo lag, but not as much as I am getting.

That's why, from what I understand, the boost controller that I'm getting goes to the TOP of the WG to prevent the spring from cracking early. Then, when 8psi (in my case) is reached, the boost controller changes the pressure over to the SIDE of the WG. This should eliminate the "primary problem" listed above. Thus, reversing the negative effects of boost onset and turbo lag.

If that "primary problem" above is true, then here's the simple overview:

My car = cracking the spring at 3psi coupled with help getting the spring open ASAP
Turbo05GT's car = cracking the spring at 3psi, but no help getting the spring open until boost controller setting is reached
Boost controller installed = help holding the spring closed, then help getting the spring open at desired psi setting

I'm following the Scientific Method... I've done #1, #2, and #3. Tomorrow I do #4 through #8:

1. Make Observations
2. Make a Hypothesis
3. Design an Experiment
4. Conduct an Experiment
5. Gather Data from Observations
6. Analyze Data
7. Reach a Conclusion
8. Publish the Results

Bullitt995

You mean copied right? Just like all your other parts and most likely the turbo kit you ripped off someone else.

And the impeller on the driveshaft? Come on. Stop trying to pass the blame off on someone else. This isn't turbonetic's fault. Seems like you've considered everyone except yourself in the fault category. We've ruled out that 2+2 does not equal 0, 3654, or -3. Maybe we should try 4?

Boltzman

svopaul

With THAT said JR I'd like to comment here. EVERYWHERE you go there is drama....your primary function appears ONLY as self promotion and you bring the drama into every thread by your actions. You constantly link things that have NO relevance to the topic but promote your own wares. Nobody expects you to just sit and be quiet but it is the way you handle yourself in these threads that brings the response from your potential customers. I too am in business and I will speak my mind...however being in business you are held to a higher standard whether you like it or not and alienating potential customers doesn't help your business and whether you realize it or not you are alienating people in the way you handle yourself on this and other forums. When your threads become the source of entertainment and these smilies start appearing posted by forum members then that should be a clue that things are starting to get out of hand and look bad for you from a PR perspective....or maybe you just don't care?

I found it surprising that a customer service issue was being played out on an internet forum....it should have never gone this far and you shouldn't be gathering an audience on something like this but it's your business and if you like to handle and continue things in this manner then I guess that is your perogative. Now maybe you didn't bring the problem to the public forum but once that happens you have no choice but to handle it and it is HOW you handle it that reflects upon you. I can see that you are trying to fix his problem but at the same time you are adding fuel to the fire with the way you are interacting with other forum members. Remember, it is your reputation that brings about negative responses from others....I'll bet good money that if it were Hellion on this board that you wouldn't see ANY of the negativity shown here...then again it's is most unlikely that you would EVER see a problem from their stuff that would make it nearly 20 pages on an internet board anywhere.

You have a reputation here as evidenced and confirmed by some of the comments made about drama filled threads. You feel it necessary to "return fire" rather than concentrating solely on the topic at hand. Sure there are others firing at you but what I see is a common denominator every time GMS is the topic of a thread and that is you keeping things going with your "speaking out".

65sohc is VERY knowledgeable and has proven such by his posts and with that said I also agree that if the compressor wheel on the turbo was loose or spinning given the tight tolerances of a turbocharger that it would have made contact with the compressor housing. That to me seemed to be an off the wall comment for a potential problem.

JR, think before you type....handle this issue and do it without causing any more drama. I may not be a moderator of THIS forum but that doesn't mean that I don't have input with other mods and management of this site.

tom281

Well said......

65sohc

Your wastegate IS starting to open at around 3 psi, but that is perfectly normal and would not account for your lack of power. The old mechanic's saying, "They all do that," is actually true for once.The effect a boost controller has on spool up time is relatively subtle and varies depending on the type of controller. There is nothing subtle about your situation. Your engine DOES eventually make boost, albeit not very much, but for some reason the horsepower that results is FAR less than what it should be. A boost controller will not FIX a problem. It is more of a tweaking aid. From what I can tell the Granatelli kit is made up of top quality, well-matched components which should produce boost up the wazoo, tremendous power gains and minimal turbo lag.

89Trooper

Here is a video of the BOV at work. Sorry it isn't clearer, but the center purple part starts to open first, then it opens the larger black seal. Then, when it closes, the black part closes first, then the purple section:

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t=DSCN6950.flv

I couldn't do the balloon test since it was trying to suck in the balloon (or plastic baggie).

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t=DSCN6951.flv

It is doing that at idle because of the vacuum line hooked up to the side of the WG. I had my dad pinch off the line to the WG and it stopped the sucking. As soon as he let go (when I yell OK, GO AHEAD), it starts sucking in the bag again:

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...t=DSCN6952.flv

I guess I could have disconnected the line to the side of the WG and then drove the car, but once I saw the bag sucking in, I really didn't want to risk the chance of it getting sucked into the exhaust.

I know what some here are saying about a boost controller. But, I still want to see the effects of it installed. I'll just have to use the boost gauge to see if there are any change at any given RPM.

All of my comments on boost controllers are purely spectulation. I'll have no problem admitting that everything I was saying was total BS!

65sohc

That's bizarre. Why would there be air flowing into the dump tube at idle?

89Trooper

Well, there's suction on the side of the WG from the intake manifold at idle. That suction has to get it's air from somewhere.

Is there less suction on the other side of the throttle plate? Maybe that's why they specifically say to hook the WG there, instead of after the throttle plate? Purely a guess.

Or, perhaps it is proof that something in the WG is defective? I'll need to show that video to Tial (email sent).

That suction wouldn't be there with the boost controller hooked up, though! On second thought, maybe it would... since it hooks to the TOP of the wastegate before the boost controller's setting is reached, so that would have to get air from somewhere, too.

The Tial's instructions show a "vent" in the TOP connection to the WG, though, when using a boost controller. Maybe that's where the air is supposed to come from?

http://www.tialmedia.com/documents/w..._wginstall.pdf