Rumoured power outputs for '15
V6 Member
Joined: April 8, 2012
Posts: 88
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From: Illinois
I'm all for DI. I don't see Ford letting GM have the "bragging rights" of DI in their V8's for very long.
What I'm more concerned about it whether or not Ford goes to cylinder deactivation. I'm hoping they don't. To me its a gimmick that doesn't net any really noticeable benefit. But with CAFE standards, automakers are trying to squeeze every last MPG out of an engine anymore. I hope Ford resists the temptation with the 5.0.
What I'm more concerned about it whether or not Ford goes to cylinder deactivation. I'm hoping they don't. To me its a gimmick that doesn't net any really noticeable benefit. But with CAFE standards, automakers are trying to squeeze every last MPG out of an engine anymore. I hope Ford resists the temptation with the 5.0.
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
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The flaw in your logic is that is based on your opinion, not fact. There's nothing wrong with that--after all this is a forum for opinions. DI is a possibility for 2015, and you have laid out a fair argument for it. However, the assumption that it 'has' to have it, and it 'has to have more horsepower' is supposition.
If DI is introduced and the horsepower is bumped, Ford will make a sale--to you, and probably quite a few others. But, if I don't like the way the car looks, I will simply keep my current GT. Whether or not it has 475-HP, or DI is not going to be a determining factor. After all if I want 475, 575, or even 625-HP I can have that now from several well-known tuner shops. And though it is just my opinion, there are probably a few others that feel that way as well. (Different strokes for different folks.)
Assume for a moment that DI has been tested. (A 5.8 V10 was also tested for the S197 platform--didn't make it to production.) With a new Camaro on the horizon, wouldn't it make more sense to keep an ace up your sleeve? For example--introduce the new model with the same power trains and, when your competitor introduces a brand new model the following year, steal the competitor's thunder with a brand new power train with a considerable bump in HP?
GT Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 196
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Again with the "doesn't need" stuff.
Naysay all you want. That's not forward thinking.
Here's why I think you are mistaken:
By the time the 2019 or 2020 MY comes around (whichever year is a significant change) the Coyote is 10 years old. Given technology's exponentially increasing rates of progression, 10 years is very old. They are NOT going to drag the current block clear into 2025, which is what would happen if they delayed DI until the S550 2020MY refresh, with DI being the only change of significance.
GM has gone from LS2 to LS3 to LT1 in 9 years. 2005 MY to 2014 MY.
Ford has gone from 2V 4.6 SOHC, to 3V 4.6 SOHC to 4V 5.0 DOHC in 15 years. 1996MY to 2011MY.
2015 MY ought to see a significant upgrade, especially given it's the 50th Anniversary.
The 5.0 is an excellent platform that is good for about 10 years worth the cars in its technology and design. Technology is moving faster forward by the year. 1/2 way through that 10 years, a significant improvement needs to be made. DI is most logical, since it's designed for it. It's been capable of utilizing DI for 4 years. I recall an article in 2010 I'm trying to track down that spoke of Engineering already testing and developing the DI system in the Coyote. It will be ready.
The 3V SOHC 4.6 lasted 6 years in production for the mustang. The current 5.0 will last 10.
By the time 2020 shows up, the Coyote's technology will be essentially 11-12 years old given it started development in 2008, being released in 2010 for the 2011MY.
They can't ride out the current engine until 2020 before adding DI. Meeting MPG and emissions standards is one reason. Making a more appealing product now using the obvious instead of 5 years from now and then having nothing to go on after that, is not what a good marketing team plans for.
It's probable the Coyote sees end of life 6 years from now not 11, which is what would happen if they delayed DI until a refresh. Nobody wants 15 year old technology in their 2024 MY car. Not gonna happen.
If the 2015 truly wants to impress, it will have DI.
Show me where my logic is flawed.
In 2020ish, I see the V8 remaining, but at smaller displacement using turbos for increased fuel efficiency and maintaing power output. That will be a new block, new tech, etc.
In fact, I think it's likely 2020 will not be a only a refresh, but a completely new platform altogether focusing on the latest in strength, lightness and geometry. The S550 is supposedly more of an update than a complete ground up work over. This also cannot carry clear into 2025.
As an engineer that works in product development, we are being more increasingly pressured to innovate and advance. The consumer wants better and more frequent updates. Cars are different than say, a cell phone, but I highly doubt the Coyote lasts past 2019 nor do I believe the S550 platform lives past that same time. Had the platform been completely fresh like the Alpha (maybe it is and we get a big surprise!), it could live into 2025.
Anyways, DI does make sense right now.
You are correct, it doesn't absolutely need it, but it would be a foolish strategy to leave it out right now. If I was a Ford engineer, knowing the 5.0 has DI capability, and which has been known since 2008 during development of the block, I would fully expect the next phase of engine development after the release of the 2011MY would be to test and develop a working DI version. They haven't sat on their hands all this time, have they?
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: August 7, 2011
Posts: 5,246
Likes: 567
From: NC
The flaw in your logic is that is based on your opinion, not fact. There's nothing wrong with that--after all this is a forum for opinions. DI is a possibility for 2015, and you have laid out a fair argument for it. However, the assumption that it 'has' to have it, and it 'has to have more horsepower' is supposition.
If DI is introduced and the horsepower is bumped, Ford will make a sale--to you, and probably quite a few others. But, if I don't like the way the car looks, I will simply keep my current GT. Whether or not it has 475-HP, or DI is not going to be a determining factor. After all if I want 475, 575, or even 625-HP I can have that now from several well-known tuner shops. And though it is just my opinion, there are probably a few others that feel that way as well. (Different strokes for different folks.)
Assume for a moment that DI has been tested. (A 5.8 V10 was also tested for the S197 platform--didn't make it to production.) With a new Camaro on the horizon, wouldn't it make more sense to keep an ace up your sleeve? For example--introduce the new model with the same power trains and, when your competitor introduces a brand new model the following year, steal the competitor's thunder with a brand new power train with a considerable bump in HP?
If DI is introduced and the horsepower is bumped, Ford will make a sale--to you, and probably quite a few others. But, if I don't like the way the car looks, I will simply keep my current GT. Whether or not it has 475-HP, or DI is not going to be a determining factor. After all if I want 475, 575, or even 625-HP I can have that now from several well-known tuner shops. And though it is just my opinion, there are probably a few others that feel that way as well. (Different strokes for different folks.)
Assume for a moment that DI has been tested. (A 5.8 V10 was also tested for the S197 platform--didn't make it to production.) With a new Camaro on the horizon, wouldn't it make more sense to keep an ace up your sleeve? For example--introduce the new model with the same power trains and, when your competitor introduces a brand new model the following year, steal the competitor's thunder with a brand new power train with a considerable bump in HP?
I imagine there's quite a few 2010 owners that would've loved it if Ford introduced the new engines for the 2010 models, not wait for the 2011's ... the term "feeling jipped" comes to mind.
"Screwed" too ... lol
FR500 Member
Joined: December 9, 2011
Posts: 3,584
Likes: 6
From: Corpus Christi, TX
That would make the 2015 model yet another red-headed stepchild, kinda like the 2010 ... new looks but same-ol' powertrain, just for awesome new engines to be released for the next year's model.
I imagine there's quite a few 2010 owners that would've loved it if Ford introduced the new engines for the 2010 models, not wait for the 2011's ... the term "feeling jipped" comes to mind.
"Screwed" too ... lol
I feel bad for all the people who bought one then the new motors coming out next year. I know id be pissed, but its an easy obstacle to clear. And by then the production 16MY should be revealed and official specs released. If Ford can manage to release their specs afterwards to include DI among other things, itll be a secret ***** slap to the face for Chevy.
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 2,121
Likes: 3
From: Dallas
DI isn't going to change the Coyote like the 4.6 to 5.0. The 4.6 was not even in the same league.
It wouldn't be a stepchild. You guys are really hung up on power. If the car performs it will sell. No one argues about a 300hp M3 so why such a big deal with the Mustang? It all came down to power to weight.
But there will be improvements for sure. Like the LS3, basically an excuse to put variable valve timing in an LS. The best thing to come out of the LS was how good the heads got. The Coyote can live for a long time with similar improvements.
Oh and I guess you guys forgot about the LS1. 1998. So the LS has been around. In fact it's such a good platform that they aren't forgetting it any time soon. But I suppose you forgot about the small block the used before. You know from 1955.
You guys are so silly.
It wouldn't be a stepchild. You guys are really hung up on power. If the car performs it will sell. No one argues about a 300hp M3 so why such a big deal with the Mustang? It all came down to power to weight.
But there will be improvements for sure. Like the LS3, basically an excuse to put variable valve timing in an LS. The best thing to come out of the LS was how good the heads got. The Coyote can live for a long time with similar improvements.
Oh and I guess you guys forgot about the LS1. 1998. So the LS has been around. In fact it's such a good platform that they aren't forgetting it any time soon. But I suppose you forgot about the small block the used before. You know from 1955.
You guys are so silly.
Thread Starter
GTR Member
Joined: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,553
Likes: 11
From: England
Let's face it, are '11 & '12 owners unhappy that their car has "only" 412bhp whereas the '13 and '14 have 420bhp? I wouldn't expect much more of a jump in power once we get the '15...........so if we get another 20 or so bhp thanks to DI in 2 or 3 years ('17/'18MY), then no-one should be unhappy. It also means incremental improvements can be made that will help keep the car fresh, in the news, and finding buyers.
I'm sure DI will come. Just not yet
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: August 7, 2011
Posts: 5,246
Likes: 567
From: NC
I get where you're coming from, but I'm sure we'll see a bump in power over the current 420bhp, even if Ford don't go with DI.
Let's face it, are '11 & '12 owners unhappy that their car has "only" 412bhp whereas the '13 and '14 have 420bhp? I wouldn't expect much more of a jump in power once we get the '15...........so if we get another 20 or so bhp thanks to DI in 2 or 3 years ('17/'18MY), then no-one should be unhappy. It also means incremental improvements can be made that will help keep the car fresh, in the news, and finding buyers.
I'm sure DI will come. Just not yet
Let's face it, are '11 & '12 owners unhappy that their car has "only" 412bhp whereas the '13 and '14 have 420bhp? I wouldn't expect much more of a jump in power once we get the '15...........so if we get another 20 or so bhp thanks to DI in 2 or 3 years ('17/'18MY), then no-one should be unhappy. It also means incremental improvements can be made that will help keep the car fresh, in the news, and finding buyers.
I'm sure DI will come. Just not yet
A 97-horse bump would be as insignificant as the 8-hp bump only if it was on a ~1500+ hp engine
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: July 7, 2012
Posts: 4,421
Likes: 21
From: Indianapolis
That would make the 2015 model yet another red-headed stepchild, kinda like the 2010 ... new looks but same-ol' powertrain, just for awesome new engines to be released for the next year's model.
I imagine there's quite a few 2010 owners that would've loved it if Ford introduced the new engines for the 2010 models, not wait for the 2011's ... the term "feeling jipped" comes to mind.
"Screwed" too ... lol
Considering i set out to get a GT: I would not be happy with a 10 GT. soothe me all day long reminding me of its two extra cylinders and "sound ." But I'd still be envious of the 11-up and certainly feel some buyers remorse. Also sneer at the 11-up V6s basically laying down the same numbers.
It would be silly if Ford totally redesigned the new Mustangs but kept the same drivetrain. I have a feeling the design will be bold and so will the performance.
I hope the 15 is not the transitional step child either.
Last edited by Getportfolio; May 19, 2013 at 08:35 AM.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: January 6, 2006
Posts: 14,053
Likes: 166
From: Bay Area, CA
For steering feel, Ford needs to target the 00-04 Focus. Yes, I'm serious. I went from my 03 GT on MM coilovers, solid steering shaft, 275s and delrin bushings all around, and my mom's 03 Focus ZX5 with BFG A/S 205s feels like a brick compared to my car. It's so heavy and solid on the freeway, and communicates everything to the steering wheel - that's another thing, that chunky little gokart steering wheel that used to come on the Focus is still one of the best I've ever felt. I'm working on adapting one to the Mustang and want to try getting on into my Escape too.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: May 16, 2004
Posts: 5,206
Likes: 18
From: Bristol, TN
Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the cited article quoting Ford that DI wont provide significant power gains on the 5.0 unless they were significantly behind on DI technology. They might eek out perhaps a full point of compression on the engine and perhaps a bit more control over the combustion process which seems to be pretty good already with the implementation of TiVCT, the trade offs though are going to be hotter less dense air coming into the engine since there is no more latent cooling which increases the density of the air as it travels to the cylinder and whatever system Ford is going to have to concoct to keep oil out of the intake tract since the intake valve will no longer be washed and cooled by the fuel allowing the buildup of intake valve deposits if oil gets out of hand.
Also DI is a real pain in the **** to deal with when it comes to modding the engine. Power is limited like any engine on the maximum amount of fuel you can flow. The current and easy solution is to add bigger injectors or increase fuel pressure or both. DI engines aren't easily modified in this fashion and most if not all aftermarket solutions hinge around adding supplemental port fuel injection using a separate controller which translates into either limited options for increasing power or more expensive options for increasing power compared to a port injected engines.
GT Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 196
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I get where you're coming from, but I'm sure we'll see a bump in power over the current 420bhp, even if Ford don't go with DI.
Let's face it, are '11 & '12 owners unhappy that their car has "only" 412bhp whereas the '13 and '14 have 420bhp? I wouldn't expect much more of a jump in power once we get the '15...........so if we get another 20 or so bhp thanks to DI in 2 or 3 years ('17/'18MY), then no-one should be unhappy. It also means incremental improvements can be made that will help keep the car fresh, in the news, and finding buyers.
I'm sure DI will come. Just not yet
Good point. I remember buying a high end MacBook only for Apple to release one twice as powerful a few months later. Same with my iPhone.
Considering i set out to get a GT: I would not be happy with a 10 GT. soothe me all day long reminding me of its two extra cylinders and "sound ." But I'd still be envious of the 11-up and certainly feel some buyers remorse. Also sneer at the 11-up V6s basically laying down the same numbers.
It would be silly if Ford totally redesigned the new Mustangs but kept the same drivetrain. I have a feeling the design will be bold and so will the performance.
I hope the 15 is not the transitional step child either.
FR500 Member
Joined: December 9, 2011
Posts: 3,584
Likes: 6
From: Corpus Christi, TX
Don't sneer that's rude :P and besides the v6 can't match the GT for torque or power made. Example not even sure they make cylinder heads/cams for the new v6 or even a new intake manifold...so where's the modability for power in that? Guess it comes down to if you want to build power the 05 is still a better platform for making power than the new v6. As for the whole bump in power I doubt anyone will feel regretful if their car has all of 20hp less then another. There's a lot of things you can do to gain that power on a GT.
GT Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 196
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While the v6 power modability is limited to bolt-ons and FI, theres no shartage of quick ones around. I know several are in the 400+hp range which is amazing for a small v6. Yes it will never have the v8 rumble or catch the same amount of respect, but you save money on insurance (for us under 26 it really matters) and gas which is a hige plus for me. One of the reasons i got the sixxer after the crash
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
That would make the 2015 model yet another red-headed stepchild, kinda like the 2010 ... new looks but same-ol' powertrain, just for awesome new engines to be released for the next year's model.
I imagine there's quite a few 2010 owners that would've loved it if Ford introduced the new engines for the 2010 models, not wait for the 2011's ... the term "feeling jipped" comes to mind.
"Screwed" too ... lol
I imagine there's quite a few 2010 owners that would've loved it if Ford introduced the new engines for the 2010 models, not wait for the 2011's ... the term "feeling jipped" comes to mind.
"Screwed" too ... lol
It seems like you buy into the Tool Time Theory that horsepower is what all Mustang buyers are looking for. The 5.0 was a great step forward, no argument here. It also represents a big gain in HP and horsepower can be a lot of fun. According to the TTT this big jump in HP should've been accompanied by a considerable spike in sales--by your rationale. *
* From 2009 to 2010 Mustang sales increased from 66,000 to over 73,000. Of course part of the poor 2009 sales was the crash of 2008 and the economy starting a sluggish recovery. Magazine editors definitely gave a lot of praise to the 2011 with the new 5.0--but it did not translate to better sales. Sales fell by over 3,000 units from 2010 to 2011. Money was still tight and the car didn't offer anything new, except HP!
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: January 6, 2006
Posts: 14,053
Likes: 166
From: Bay Area, CA
My 03 GT is less expensive to insure than my 00 V6 was because of the traction control and ABS that my 00 did not have. Also, the body panels are easier to replace because there's 300k more SN95s on the road than there were in 2000. Lastly, the GT is cheaper to repair than my 05 Escape too - AWD and transverse engine mounts apparently are more complicated and expensive to fix.
GT Member
Joined: September 8, 2009
Posts: 164
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DI will be used by whenever Lincoln rolls out their V8 Ecoboost powered SUVs lol.
I think it's safe to say the Coyote, being one of the most efficient motors of it's capacity, has better volumetric efficiency than nearly everything on the market, direct-injected or not. Look at it's torque/cube and you'll know what I mean.
For that reason there's a lot of sense for Ford to delay using d.i. until it becomes worth it. "It doesn't need it' is a good argument from the manufacturers point of view if there's not much gain for the big increase to use that system. Bang vs buck, it doesn't work for Ford.
D.I. works for other manufacturers, but then again, they have nothing as efficient as the Ford V motors (yes, the 3.7 is also a cracker).
I think it's safe to say the Coyote, being one of the most efficient motors of it's capacity, has better volumetric efficiency than nearly everything on the market, direct-injected or not. Look at it's torque/cube and you'll know what I mean.
For that reason there's a lot of sense for Ford to delay using d.i. until it becomes worth it. "It doesn't need it' is a good argument from the manufacturers point of view if there's not much gain for the big increase to use that system. Bang vs buck, it doesn't work for Ford.
D.I. works for other manufacturers, but then again, they have nothing as efficient as the Ford V motors (yes, the 3.7 is also a cracker).
Last edited by Falc'man; May 19, 2013 at 09:51 AM.
GT Member
Joined: March 22, 2013
Posts: 196
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Do you own a 2010? Are you willing to walk up to a 2010 owner and tell them "Wow, it really sucks that you bought a 2010. You got screwed." Be prepared to duck. I am not sure all 2010 owners would take that a compliment. I am sure you're right--there are probably some that wish they had waited until a 5.0 was available. But I'd be willing to bet that a number of 2010 owners probably enjoy their car and feel that they got a pretty good package for the money they spent. Don't be too certain that your perspective is universal.
It seems like you buy into the Tool Time Theory that horsepower is what all Mustang buyers are looking for. The 5.0 was a great step forward, no argument here. It also represents a big gain in HP and horsepower can be a lot of fun. According to the TTT this big jump in HP should've been accompanied by a considerable spike in sales--by your rationale. *
* From 2009 to 2010 Mustang sales increased from 66,000 to over 73,000. Of course part of the poor 2009 sales was the crash of 2008 and the economy starting a sluggish recovery. Magazine editors definitely gave a lot of praise to the 2011 with the new 5.0--but it did not translate to better sales. Sales fell by over 3,000 units from 2010 to 2011. Money was still tight and the car didn't offer anything new, except HP!
DI will be used by whenever Lincoln rolls out their V8 Ecoboost powered SUVs lol.
I think it's safe to say the Coyote, being one of the most efficient motors of it's capacity, has better volumetric efficiency than nearly everything on the market, direct-injected or not. Look at it's torque/cube and you'll know what I mean.
For that reason there's a lot of sense for Ford to delay using d.i. until it becomes worth it. "It doesn't need it' is a good argument from the manufacturers point of view if there's not much gain for the big increase to use that system. Bang vs buck, it doesn't work for Ford.
D.I. works for other manufacturers, but then again, they have nothing as efficient as the Ford V motors (yes, the 3.7 is also a cracker).
I think it's safe to say the Coyote, being one of the most efficient motors of it's capacity, has better volumetric efficiency than nearly everything on the market, direct-injected or not. Look at it's torque/cube and you'll know what I mean.
For that reason there's a lot of sense for Ford to delay using d.i. until it becomes worth it. "It doesn't need it' is a good argument from the manufacturers point of view if there's not much gain for the big increase to use that system. Bang vs buck, it doesn't work for Ford.
D.I. works for other manufacturers, but then again, they have nothing as efficient as the Ford V motors (yes, the 3.7 is also a cracker).