Granatelli Intake w/new MAF???
7/10/06, 12:27 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Cleveland
no new intake that replaces the stock unit is "bad", you just need to determine what you believe is best in terms of performance or dollar per dollar.
You guys can make up your own minds on this product but IMO its not the best or even in the top units out there for the s197.
-Dan
You guys can make up your own minds on this product but IMO its not the best or even in the top units out there for the s197.
-Dan
Mr. Cleveland - What factors do you consider when you determined that our kit "was not even in the top units out there for the S197"?
Does anyone else offer a unit that flows more air?
Does anyone else offer Nitrous bungs that give you the ability to plumb your kit or run water/methanol injection?
Does anyone else offer calibrated electronics as an option?
Does anyone else have a polished one-piece housing?
If any of these are factors when determining quality I am sure most will agree we rank in the top 3. In fact everyone that has purchased our part has praised it
- it has a certain amount of
7/10/06, 03:14 PM
#22
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Originally Posted by Granatelli
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That is an easy question to answer. Granatelli has a partnership with Hitachi. Hitachi is the manufacturer of the stock electronics that came with your 05/06 Mustang. Our partnership allows us direct access to the engineers that designed the new "slot-in" technology. So we can sell (include) the proper scaled MAF electonics with our 410040 kits. So why can't the other do it? They could if they could read the MAF transfer functions but they can't get directly to it. SCT, Diablo and Sniper want to sell you a flashtool not MAF electonics so naturally they hype the programs. Since It is GMS and Hitachi versus everyone else....well you get it. If 20 people tell you the sky is falling and only one guy says no it is not - most people side with the 20 not the 1. If 1 million people all stood up at the same time and said the earth was flat and if you sailed to far you would fall off the end - would you belive it? 150 years ago maybe but not anymore. Sooner or later everyone will see GMS has had a handle of the MAF technology since 1998 when we sold Paxton and put all our energy into the electronic end of things -
I think you are arguing both sides here. We do custom tune the MAF electronic but we are not tricking it we are really tuning it. This in turn gives you the proper A/F ratio
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Bamachips is a customer of GMS.
So call Doug - I am cool with that.
Look we offer it however you want it. Part number 410040 is a complete unpolished (satin finish) 05/06 CAI with the calibrated electronics or you can purchase 410040-1 which is the same looking part with no electonics - that way you can put your factory parts in and use any flash tuner you pick. WE OFFER IT BOTH WAYS - no need to throw stones
Just put a "P" after the part number and you get polished
I am the engineer at Granatelli and I run tech as well. We are a team but I lead by example and I have earned the respect of all the Hitachi engineers as well as Delphi.
That is an easy question to answer. Granatelli has a partnership with Hitachi. Hitachi is the manufacturer of the stock electronics that came with your 05/06 Mustang. Our partnership allows us direct access to the engineers that designed the new "slot-in" technology. So we can sell (include) the proper scaled MAF electonics with our 410040 kits. So why can't the other do it? They could if they could read the MAF transfer functions but they can't get directly to it. SCT, Diablo and Sniper want to sell you a flashtool not MAF electonics so naturally they hype the programs. Since It is GMS and Hitachi versus everyone else....well you get it. If 20 people tell you the sky is falling and only one guy says no it is not - most people side with the 20 not the 1. If 1 million people all stood up at the same time and said the earth was flat and if you sailed to far you would fall off the end - would you belive it? 150 years ago maybe but not anymore. Sooner or later everyone will see GMS has had a handle of the MAF technology since 1998 when we sold Paxton and put all our energy into the electronic end of things -
I think you are arguing both sides here. We do custom tune the MAF electronic but we are not tricking it we are really tuning it. This in turn gives you the proper A/F ratio
[font=Arial][size=2][font=Verdana]
Bamachips is a customer of GMS.
So call Doug - I am cool with that.Look we offer it however you want it. Part number 410040 is a complete unpolished (satin finish) 05/06 CAI with the calibrated electronics or you can purchase 410040-1 which is the same looking part with no electonics - that way you can put your factory parts in and use any flash tuner you pick. WE OFFER IT BOTH WAYS - no need to throw stones
Just put a "P" after the part number and you get polished
I am the engineer at Granatelli and I run tech as well. We are a team but I lead by example and I have earned the respect of all the Hitachi engineers as well as Delphi.
7/10/06, 03:42 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
Ok JR, At least now, I have a much better understanding, how your able to calibrate the MAF electronics.. However, let's just say that for ie, if the factory MAF sensor were able to read larger volumes of air, just as the 03-04 Mustang's before going to the current, slot in electronic style MAF electronics, that didn't require a PCM re-flash or recalibrated electronics, which allowed running a cold air intake, by itself..
did not require a reflash was because the electronics were calibrated to the housing itself. (like above) That means no matter what you put in front of it or after it - it always samples the proper amount air. However if you were to unscrew the electronic out of the style shown above and screw that it a different diameter tube you would have all the same problems. Granatelli addressed this by introducing the 80064919-0 meter pictured below
Here you see the it looks like the old design but now it has the proper plug in for the slot it style meter. You chose to use this design then again you could put anything you want in front of it and after it just as long as the air all funneled through the housing as it relates to the electronics as delivered by us.
Also the electronics we include in our kits actually have more dynamic range then a stock GT because we start out with the GT (as in GT40) slot in which goes 0 to 2000 kg/hr at 5 volts as where the Mustang GT is only 0 to 1650 kg/hr at 5 volts.
This math follows the same logic as the BA2400 and BA2800 we make for SCT. No one has questioned their repeatability because they are spot on. These parts are no different.
Hope that helped
7/10/06, 03:45 PM
#24
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pic your poison
http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...64619small.jpg
this way (above) you get to make you own home made intake and it is always calibrated - or -
http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...40nossmall.jpg
this way (above) we do it all for you
http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...64619small.jpg
this way (above) you get to make you own home made intake and it is always calibrated - or -
http://www.granatellimotorsports.com...40nossmall.jpg
this way (above) we do it all for you
7/10/06, 05:40 PM
#25
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Originally Posted by Granatelli
You lost me. The reason why the old design MAF housing
did not require a reflash was because the electronics were calibrated to the housing itself. (like above) That means no matter what you put in front of it or after it - it always samples the proper amount air. However if you were to unscrew the electronic out of the style shown above and screw that it a different diameter tube you would have all the same problems. Granatelli addressed this by introducing the 80064919-0 meter pictured below
Here you see the it looks like the old design but now it has the proper plug in for the slot it style meter. You chose to use this design then again you could put anything you want in front of it and after it just as long as the air all funneled through the housing as it relates to the electronics as delivered by us.
Also the electronics we include in our kits actually have more dynamic range then a stock GT because we start out with the GT (as in GT40) slot in which goes 0 to 2000 kg/hr at 5 volts as where the Mustang GT is only 0 to 1650 kg/hr at 5 volts.
This math follows the same logic as the BA2400 and BA2800 we make for SCT. No one has questioned their repeatability because they are spot on. These parts are no different.
Hope that helped
did not require a reflash was because the electronics were calibrated to the housing itself. (like above) That means no matter what you put in front of it or after it - it always samples the proper amount air. However if you were to unscrew the electronic out of the style shown above and screw that it a different diameter tube you would have all the same problems. Granatelli addressed this by introducing the 80064919-0 meter pictured below
Here you see the it looks like the old design but now it has the proper plug in for the slot it style meter. You chose to use this design then again you could put anything you want in front of it and after it just as long as the air all funneled through the housing as it relates to the electronics as delivered by us.
Also the electronics we include in our kits actually have more dynamic range then a stock GT because we start out with the GT (as in GT40) slot in which goes 0 to 2000 kg/hr at 5 volts as where the Mustang GT is only 0 to 1650 kg/hr at 5 volts.
This math follows the same logic as the BA2400 and BA2800 we make for SCT. No one has questioned their repeatability because they are spot on. These parts are no different.
Hope that helped
Also, when you get a chance..I edited my earlier post, so I hope you'll take another look, at the revised version, as well...
7/10/06, 08:00 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
Sorry for losing you earlier, JR...I wasn't able to finish posting everything, I wanted to say, before being prompted to log back in..So I'll re-phrase, what I meant to say.. Let's say for ie, if the factory MAF sensor, were able to read the same amount of airflow, as you're re-calibrated electronics ?, and if there was no reason to correct, the sensitivity issue of the stock MAF sensor..Would you not be able to run a cold air intake by itself, much in the same way, before Ford upgraded to the new slot in MAF design ?? In other words, if the stock MAF sensor were calibrated to the MAF housing, what would be the difference, between you're re-calibrated electronics and running the very same cold air intake, by itself, that didn't require any corrections ?? ...
You just quoted what I said in the earlier post – you are correct. If the factory had a calibrated sensor mated to the housing then it should be able to adjust for any cold air intake. – Now you need to make sue the housing can move enough air
Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
would the airflow and performance advantages be the same ? or would there still be a difference ?? I hope, that I'm not losing you again, but I just can't seem, to put it, any other way to make, what I'm trying to say, any clearer...However, I have one last question, that I still don't understand..If the stock MAF sensor, is no longer calibrated to the MAF housing..Then what is the stock sensor, calibrated to ?.. Is it calibrated, to the computer itself, or what ?? And finally, what are your re-calibrated electronics, calibrated to ?...
Well you kinda lost me on this one. Our electronics are calibrated specifically to our intake tube. Each meter is installed in the house and then flowed as a complete unit
7/10/06, 08:01 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by TexaStang
Thats a pretty sharp looking intake. Could a tune still be used with this setup via someone like Bamachips for premium fuel?
7/10/06, 09:12 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by Granatelli
You just quoted what I said in the earlier post – you are correct. If the factory had a calibrated sensor mated to the housing then it should be able to adjust for any cold air intake. – Now you need to make sue the housing can move enough air
Well you kinda lost me on this one. Our electronics are calibrated specifically to our intake tube. Each meter is installed in the house and then flowed as a complete unit
7/11/06, 05:41 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
You mentioned in the earlier post, that before Ford changed to the current slot in MAF design, the reason why the old design MAF housing, did not require a reflash, was because the electronics were calibrated to the housing itself..So my question was, what is the current factory, MAF slot in design sensor mated or calibrated to ?? Anyway, hope your able to understand, where I'm comming from now..
So I see where you are going with this. And my point still holds true. GMS/Hitachi can scale any meter to any tube as long as we can see the before and after application on our flow bench
7/11/06, 06:43 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Granatelli
Ya - now that is a simple question. The MAF is calibrated to the stock intake tube and the balance of the work (most of the work) is done in the ECM tune. This way Ford can use the same slot in meter for like 15 different applications. Each application has a differnt ECU calibration.
So I see where you are going with this. And my point still holds true. GMS/Hitachi can scale any meter to any tube as long as we can see the before and after application on our flow bench
So I see where you are going with this. And my point still holds true. GMS/Hitachi can scale any meter to any tube as long as we can see the before and after application on our flow bench
7/11/06, 07:16 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
Now, you've lost me ?? I don't quite follow, what you mean by, and the balance of the work (most of the work,) is done in the ECM tune..Or did you mean, PCM tune ?? Nor do I understand, what you mean by each application, having a different ECU calibration, in fact..I don't even know what an ECU calibration is ?? How does this compare with the old style electronics, which were calibrated to the housing itself ?? In other words, was the balance (most of the work) also done by the stock tune, as well ?? and also did the old style electronics, have different applications, that also had a different ECU calibration ?? or does the old style and new slot in design electronics work completely, in different principles ?? Perhaps, you can explain all this, in easier and less complicated terms, so that, I can fully understand, where your comming from..
ECU - electronic control unit
PCM - Power control module
ECM - electronic control Module
It is all the same - just different verbiage
Bottom line...GMS can scale and calibrate any MAF sensor to any orifice
7/11/06, 09:07 PM
#35
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Hell, just my brain could use a long drive after trying to figure out all of this complicated terminology language..
7/14/06, 08:50 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by Granatelli
I back - just a warning
7/14/06, 09:46 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by m05fastbackGT
..Does not the combination of a cold air intake, and flash tuner, provide more overall performance and power gains, than just a cold air intake alone ?? That's were I was going with this..
A cold air intake is in most cases a larger diameter Mass Air Flow(MAF) housing using the existing stock MA sensor which is calibrated for the stock MAF housing. Since the stock MA sensor in a larger diameter MAF housing does not send the correct values to the PCM then a tune is needed to compensate, else you run too lean. Most people don't recommend installing a CAI using the stock MA sensor *without* a tune.
Granatelli CAI on the other hand includes a larger diameter MAF housing *but* it also includes a new MA sensor that is calibrated to the new diameter MAF housing, therefore it sends the correct values to the PCM and no tune is needed to compensate. If this is entirely true then the engine should not run lean with the MAS calibrated for that diameter MAF.
But when you get a tune there are other tweaks that almost certainly mean that you will get more HP and Torque gains out of a CAI plus tune then you can from any CAI by itself (calibrated MAS or not).
So I would say the Granatelli unit is a lot better than a CAI by itself with no tune but not as good as a CAI with tune.
If you don't want to flash because of warranty issues, want a unit you can put back to stock real quick and don't worry about re-flashing to factory, and want to spend about $200 to $300 less than most packages (because most need the tuner) then this would probably be a good choice.
Now we just need to hear from some people that have actually installed and used one of these. <g>
7/14/06, 09:54 PM
#39
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Originally Posted by blaster
I'm no expert but here's what I gather from lot's of reading:
A cold air intake is in most cases a larger diameter Mass Air Flow(MAF) housing using the existing stock MA sensor which is calibrated for the stock MAF housing. Since the stock MA sensor in a larger diameter MAF housing does not send the correct values to the PCM then a tune is needed to compensate, else you run too lean. Most people don't recommend installing a CAI using the stock MA sensor *without* a tune.
Granatelli CAI on the other hand includes a larger diameter MAF housing *but* it also includes a new MA sensor that is calibrated to the new diameter MAF housing, therefore it sends the correct values to the PCM and no tune is needed to compensate. If this is entirely true then the engine should not run lean with the MAS calibrated for that diameter MAF.
But when you get a tune there are other tweaks that almost certainly mean that you will get more HP and Torque gains out of a CAI plus tune then you can from any CAI by itself (calibrated MAS or not).
So I would say the Granatelli unit is a lot better than a CAI by itself with no tune but not as good as a CAI with tune.
If you don't want to flash because of warranty issues, want a unit you can put back to stock real quick and don't worry about re-flashing to factory, and want to spend about $200 to $300 less than most packages (because most need the tuner) then this would probably be a good choice.
Now we just need to hear from some people that have actually installed and used one of these. <g>
A cold air intake is in most cases a larger diameter Mass Air Flow(MAF) housing using the existing stock MA sensor which is calibrated for the stock MAF housing. Since the stock MA sensor in a larger diameter MAF housing does not send the correct values to the PCM then a tune is needed to compensate, else you run too lean. Most people don't recommend installing a CAI using the stock MA sensor *without* a tune.
Granatelli CAI on the other hand includes a larger diameter MAF housing *but* it also includes a new MA sensor that is calibrated to the new diameter MAF housing, therefore it sends the correct values to the PCM and no tune is needed to compensate. If this is entirely true then the engine should not run lean with the MAS calibrated for that diameter MAF.
But when you get a tune there are other tweaks that almost certainly mean that you will get more HP and Torque gains out of a CAI plus tune then you can from any CAI by itself (calibrated MAS or not).
So I would say the Granatelli unit is a lot better than a CAI by itself with no tune but not as good as a CAI with tune.
If you don't want to flash because of warranty issues, want a unit you can put back to stock real quick and don't worry about re-flashing to factory, and want to spend about $200 to $300 less than most packages (because most need the tuner) then this would probably be a good choice.
Now we just need to hear from some people that have actually installed and used one of these. <g>
7/15/06, 05:19 AM
#40
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I now say to myself - phooy! If nada is said from someone who HAS this unit installed - back to what is tried and tested. CAI/tune. Sorry, I'll be a gunnie pig on a lot of things, but not on something like this.