Brake upgrades for the track after reviews
12/20/11, 11:21 AM
#361
I always do the same, season the rotors and follow the bed in procedure. I talked with one of the guys from Steeda on Saturday and even he said that if you did not have a good bed in it would not make the steering wheel shake like that. I would have to agree and would like to know why this happened.
Since I am not going wheel to wheel I was trying to find a good balance between tracking street driving and cost of rotors and pads. If I could have found a good combo here it would have been worth it but it turned out to be a bump in the road, I sure I will hit a few others along the way.
12/21/11, 10:17 AM
#364
Shelby GT350 Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The main thing is to get some heat into them gradually. You don't want to "shock" a new rotor by putting it into race conditions right away. If I have the time, I'll put my new rotors on with used track pads and get some street driving in with them before going through the above seasoning process, just to give them a little more time to season. That said, my last set I just went through the process above, then bed the pads the next day and tracked the car two days later. Those rotor rings lasted all season which was 18 track days.
12/21/11, 02:53 PM
#367
Bed a set of DTCs at night and watch them shoot sparks out of the wheelwells! Interesting stuff 
12/21/11, 04:35 PM
#369
Cobra Member
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 1,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by roketman
You guys need to try the Carbotech xp20's for the front and the xp16's for the rear.The pads are awesome .I have no affiliation with the company.Just love the pads
12/21/11, 05:00 PM
#370
Bullitt Member
Join Date: August 25, 2011
Location: Miami
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks this is very timely information. Looking forward to properly seasoning rotors and bedding break pads, but I will have to skip putting the old (but rather new pads) back on this go around and try a work around.
12/22/11, 06:52 AM
#371
Bullitt Member
Join Date: March 17, 2010
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bed a set of DTCs at night and watch them shoot sparks out of the wheelwells! Interesting stuff
http://youtu.be/8aayC3Hvn_I
As there once again has been a lot of debate going around about the use of DTC60/70 pads, I will once again offer my opinion on the matter. Just because you are not "road racing" other cars wheel to wheel does not mean you are not moving at race speeds on track. This is a very proven pad combination on Mustangs that is used both in competition as well as track days. Let's face it, our Mustangs are not light... and when some of us (cough, Boss owners, cough) are carrying a lot of speed at the end of straightaways, you need a reliable way to slow the car down for the corner. Simply put, these pads do that... repeatably.
I would never use the DTC30 pad after reading the description of what that pad is... it's meant for circle track driving on a light(er) car.
12/22/11, 06:56 AM
#372
Shelby GT350 Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
As there once again has been a lot of debate going around about the use of DTC60/70 pads, I will once again offer my opinion on the matter. Just because you are not "road racing" other cars wheel to wheel does not mean you are not moving at race speeds on track. This is a very proven pad combination on Mustangs that is used both in competition as well as track days.
Last edited by cloud9; 12/22/11 at 06:59 AM.
12/22/11, 08:15 AM
#373
Bullitt Member
As there once again has been a lot of debate going around about the use of DTC60/70 pads, I will once again offer my opinion on the matter. Just because you are not "road racing" other cars wheel to wheel does not mean you are not moving at race speeds on track. This is a very proven pad combination on Mustangs that is used both in competition as well as track days. Let's face it, our Mustangs are not light... and when some of us (cough, Boss owners, cough) are carrying a lot of speed at the end of straightaways, you need a reliable way to slow the car down for the corner. Simply put, these pads do that... repeatably.
I would never use the DTC30 pad after reading the description of what that pad is... it's meant for circle track driving on a light(er) car.
I would never use the DTC30 pad after reading the description of what that pad is... it's meant for circle track driving on a light(er) car.
I certainly see nothing wrong with using DTC70’s ($300 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F) on the front of our Bosses and the DTC60’s ($150 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F). These aggressive pads are great for a dedicated track use Boss wanting a high level of braking performance commensurate with higher pad costs and attending rotor wear. Gary has used this combination very effectively and they support his fast driving style. If your Boss is only driven in a track environment and you don’t mind spending extra money for the pads and rotors, these are a great choice.
Your “opinions” continually minimize the use of the Hawk DTC30’s ($165 per set, working minimum temperature 100F, Optimal temperature range 190F – 990F) which I have successfully used and were in fact recommended to several Boss owners for their application by the pad manufacturer irrespective of the marketing advertising claims for circle-track driving. And would you not think they would have some understanding of their designed product? Again the intended application is important.
My particular application is NOT a track-only application. I wanted an improved temperature pad (relative to the OE pad) which could be used for BOTH a street driven application (thus I want low pad temperature braking capability which the 60/70’s are inferior) and occasional track use. I do not have a trailer to haul my singular purpose Boss from track to track. I want to drive to the occasional track outing and drive to the local store (quite possibly in the rain). And my track driving skills can only aspire to the levels held by others on the Forum with dedicated track use cars. The DTC30’s met my intended application purposes, were recommended by the Hawk technical staff based on the intended use, and I am pleased with their performance in my usage environment.
12/22/11, 08:59 AM
#374
P0, thanks for that. You saved me asking which pads are better for occassioal track use. The 30's should be good for me as the track I run has short straights with max speed around 90mph. Nice to get feedback from different owners with differing braking requirements.
12/22/11, 09:05 AM
#375
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Join Date: December 18, 2010
Location: NorCal
Posts: 3,708
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did you read Scott's and Adam's comments?
12/22/11, 09:15 AM
#376
Originally Posted by 5 DOT 0
Did you read Scott's and Adam's comments?
12/22/11, 09:18 AM
#377
I am Shauny Clause
MOTM July 2010 Winner
MOTM July 2010 Winner
Join Date: November 25, 2009
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JScott I appreciate your "opinion" on the pad topic and your unwavering affection for the 60/70 combination. (I am sure Hawk appreciates this continuing testimonial as well). However, for others on the Forum it is equally important to specify the intended application parameters for pad use.
I certainly see nothing wrong with using DTC70’s ($300 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F) on the front of our Bosses and the DTC60’s ($150 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F). These aggressive pads are great for a dedicated track use Boss wanting a high level of braking performance commensurate with higher pad costs and attending rotor wear. Gary has used this combination very effectively and they support his fast driving style. If your Boss is only driven in a track environment and you don’t mind spending extra money for the pads and rotors, these are a great choice.
Your “opinions” continually minimize the use of the Hawk DTC30’s ($165 per set, working minimum temperature 100F, Optimal temperature range 190F – 990F) which I have successfully used and were in fact recommended to several Boss owners for their application by the pad manufacturer irrespective of the marketing advertising claims for circle-track driving. And would you not think they would have some understanding of their designed product? Again the intended application is important.
My particular application is NOT a track-only application. I wanted an improved temperature pad (relative to the OE pad) which could be used for BOTH a street driven application (thus I want low pad temperature braking capability which the 60/70’s are inferior) and occasional track use. I do not have a trailer to haul my singular purpose Boss from track to track. I want to drive to the occasional track outing and drive to the local store (quite possibly in the rain). And my track driving skills can only aspire to the levels held by others on the Forum with dedicated track use cars. The DTC30’s met my intended application purposes, were recommended by the Hawk technical staff based on the intended use, and I am pleased with their performance in my usage environment.
I certainly see nothing wrong with using DTC70’s ($300 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F) on the front of our Bosses and the DTC60’s ($150 per set, working minimum temperature 300F, optimal temperature range 480 – 1210F). These aggressive pads are great for a dedicated track use Boss wanting a high level of braking performance commensurate with higher pad costs and attending rotor wear. Gary has used this combination very effectively and they support his fast driving style. If your Boss is only driven in a track environment and you don’t mind spending extra money for the pads and rotors, these are a great choice.
Your “opinions” continually minimize the use of the Hawk DTC30’s ($165 per set, working minimum temperature 100F, Optimal temperature range 190F – 990F) which I have successfully used and were in fact recommended to several Boss owners for their application by the pad manufacturer irrespective of the marketing advertising claims for circle-track driving. And would you not think they would have some understanding of their designed product? Again the intended application is important.
My particular application is NOT a track-only application. I wanted an improved temperature pad (relative to the OE pad) which could be used for BOTH a street driven application (thus I want low pad temperature braking capability which the 60/70’s are inferior) and occasional track use. I do not have a trailer to haul my singular purpose Boss from track to track. I want to drive to the occasional track outing and drive to the local store (quite possibly in the rain). And my track driving skills can only aspire to the levels held by others on the Forum with dedicated track use cars. The DTC30’s met my intended application purposes, were recommended by the Hawk technical staff based on the intended use, and I am pleased with their performance in my usage environment.
You should NOT try to double duty pads on cars as fast and heavy as ours. Jason is trying to share his FIRST hand experience.
I compete with my 5.0 and have a lot of experience and even spent time working for a Grand AM team and I now work for an OEM (so does Jason) we are just trying to share our experiences and knowledge and what we get in response is a bunch of flak.
you should NOT use a double duty pad on our cars they are not a truely safe solution.
You should change pads at the track (I also recommend using a dedicated rotor for track use as mixing pad compounds is dangerous) and use a true track only pad for cars as fast and heavy as ours.
There are other pads besides DTC-60/70's....
PFC-01's are what I run, then there are cobalts and carbotec's and others.
The purpose of this discussion is that the compound of a dual purpose pad such as a DTC-30 is not truly safe for track use, their temperature range does not go high enough to handle the actual brake temps these cars can see.
Last edited by Stinger1982; 12/22/11 at 09:32 AM.
12/22/11, 09:37 AM
#378
I am Shauny Clause
MOTM July 2010 Winner
MOTM July 2010 Winner
Join Date: November 25, 2009
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a nearly year old post I put up here as kind of a 101:
Sorry for the extreme delay in my posting, it turns out that two jobs, an MBA program, buying a house that needs work and moving in all at once is a bit crazy.
ok everything that has been said by cloud9 and 06GT is golden advice.
The new 5.0 is easily capable of overwhelming its factory brake setup on a road course with good tires. I run Hoosier R6, A6 and Grand Am take off tires depending on what I am doing (competition or open track day for fun). With the A6 and R6 ABS getting to ABS engagement can be a struggle so the brakes are being fully utilized. My car has run in the low 150mph range on the back straight at Mid Ohio (psycho speed for a full weight street car) and weighs a staggering 3,910 with me in it in race trim with ½ tank of gas. That is a **** load of energy to be absorbed by the brakes. Now my car isn’t stock both power and suspension/tires so my speeds are not the same as a normal 5.0 plus I am a decent driver so I get onto the straight carrying good speed but you get the point of me bringing this up.
So my advice is as follows:
1. Don’t track with the stock pads and fluid PERIOD. (Great fluid = Brembo LCF 600 or equivalent)
Dont use "double duty" pads they are not safe for the temps your brakes will see.
One Brake pad (for the front) that hasn’t been mentioned and is a great pad is Performance Friction PFC-01. This has the stopping power of a DTC-70 but is easier on the rotor and I personally prefer the initial bite of the PFC over the Hawk (splitting hairs). We run PFC-01's on our Grand Am and NASA Race cars.
2. Don’t use the same rotors for the street that you use at the track. When you go to a more aggressive pad it is easy for that pad to bed into the rotor. HOWEVER when you go back to street pads its EXTREMLY hard for those pads to get a bite on the rotor since they are a wussier compound. Its amazing how badly your ability to panic stop is compromised on street pads after you have had track pads on the car, it borders on dangerous! (I almost learned the hard way some time ago).
3. Stock rotors are fine for open track days (they wont last as long as a 2 piece) if your only going to track less then say 5 times a year save your money and use factory rotors they are way cheaper (but have a dedicated track set and a dedicated street set). If you’re a track rat like me (actually competing not just open track days and 15-18 track “days” a year) step up to a two piece dedicated race rotor. To a point you get what you pay for. I recommend Brembo race rotors. We have used cheaper alternatives in the past and it’s just not worth the savings (life of rotor, stopping power, heat dissipation). Also more vanes = good. Remember brake rotor cooling vanes are directional (not applicable to stock rotors).
4. Remove all dust shields on all four corners, no exceptions (if you want to put them back after that’s up to you)
5. Cooling ducts are a good idea and for the extremely casual track guy can be done very cheaply and not permanently. Buy brake cooling hose (do NOT use house drier ducting it cant take the heat, I have seen fires because someone’s drier ducting which was plastic caught fire, dur) and zip tie it to the tie rod ends as close to the rotor as possible (its not the best solution but its better then nothing) and then zip tie them to the car all the way to the front fascia (be sure to leave slack so the ducting can turn with the wheels of course). Then remove them after the track day. If your serious about this invest in a proper setup (see my thread about fabbing in a setup to my Roush fascia or buy a FRPP or similar kit, the new FRPP Boss cooling kit = very good). Cooling ducts directed to the center of the rotor (hub area) also help to extend the life of the hub under track conditions (hubs are a wear item for road race cars and are replaced at intervals that are fractions of what a street car sees and heat is a part of the reason).
6. The factory Brembo calipers will discolor (no big deal) with track use.
7. To the really serious track guys if your budget and race (or TT in my case) class allow, stepping up to a more serious front caliper is a good idea (be aware that street compound pads are very hard to find for some race calipers). In my and Rehagen Racing's opinion the best brake kit for the money is a Brembo Pro Kit (yes it is very expensive) but its worth more then double what they charge, but there are plenty of options.
8. Stainless brake lines are not needed for the guy who might track the car a couple of times a year, but keep a close eye on them. Check for bulges and squishiness. Stainless lines are ALWAYS a good idea for everyone and must for track rats.
ok everything that has been said by cloud9 and 06GT is golden advice.
The new 5.0 is easily capable of overwhelming its factory brake setup on a road course with good tires. I run Hoosier R6, A6 and Grand Am take off tires depending on what I am doing (competition or open track day for fun). With the A6 and R6 ABS getting to ABS engagement can be a struggle so the brakes are being fully utilized. My car has run in the low 150mph range on the back straight at Mid Ohio (psycho speed for a full weight street car) and weighs a staggering 3,910 with me in it in race trim with ½ tank of gas. That is a **** load of energy to be absorbed by the brakes. Now my car isn’t stock both power and suspension/tires so my speeds are not the same as a normal 5.0 plus I am a decent driver so I get onto the straight carrying good speed but you get the point of me bringing this up.
So my advice is as follows:
1. Don’t track with the stock pads and fluid PERIOD. (Great fluid = Brembo LCF 600 or equivalent)
Dont use "double duty" pads they are not safe for the temps your brakes will see.
One Brake pad (for the front) that hasn’t been mentioned and is a great pad is Performance Friction PFC-01. This has the stopping power of a DTC-70 but is easier on the rotor and I personally prefer the initial bite of the PFC over the Hawk (splitting hairs). We run PFC-01's on our Grand Am and NASA Race cars.
2. Don’t use the same rotors for the street that you use at the track. When you go to a more aggressive pad it is easy for that pad to bed into the rotor. HOWEVER when you go back to street pads its EXTREMLY hard for those pads to get a bite on the rotor since they are a wussier compound. Its amazing how badly your ability to panic stop is compromised on street pads after you have had track pads on the car, it borders on dangerous! (I almost learned the hard way some time ago).
3. Stock rotors are fine for open track days (they wont last as long as a 2 piece) if your only going to track less then say 5 times a year save your money and use factory rotors they are way cheaper (but have a dedicated track set and a dedicated street set). If you’re a track rat like me (actually competing not just open track days and 15-18 track “days” a year) step up to a two piece dedicated race rotor. To a point you get what you pay for. I recommend Brembo race rotors. We have used cheaper alternatives in the past and it’s just not worth the savings (life of rotor, stopping power, heat dissipation). Also more vanes = good. Remember brake rotor cooling vanes are directional (not applicable to stock rotors).
4. Remove all dust shields on all four corners, no exceptions (if you want to put them back after that’s up to you)
5. Cooling ducts are a good idea and for the extremely casual track guy can be done very cheaply and not permanently. Buy brake cooling hose (do NOT use house drier ducting it cant take the heat, I have seen fires because someone’s drier ducting which was plastic caught fire, dur) and zip tie it to the tie rod ends as close to the rotor as possible (its not the best solution but its better then nothing) and then zip tie them to the car all the way to the front fascia (be sure to leave slack so the ducting can turn with the wheels of course). Then remove them after the track day. If your serious about this invest in a proper setup (see my thread about fabbing in a setup to my Roush fascia or buy a FRPP or similar kit, the new FRPP Boss cooling kit = very good). Cooling ducts directed to the center of the rotor (hub area) also help to extend the life of the hub under track conditions (hubs are a wear item for road race cars and are replaced at intervals that are fractions of what a street car sees and heat is a part of the reason).
6. The factory Brembo calipers will discolor (no big deal) with track use.
7. To the really serious track guys if your budget and race (or TT in my case) class allow, stepping up to a more serious front caliper is a good idea (be aware that street compound pads are very hard to find for some race calipers). In my and Rehagen Racing's opinion the best brake kit for the money is a Brembo Pro Kit (yes it is very expensive) but its worth more then double what they charge, but there are plenty of options.
8. Stainless brake lines are not needed for the guy who might track the car a couple of times a year, but keep a close eye on them. Check for bulges and squishiness. Stainless lines are ALWAYS a good idea for everyone and must for track rats.
Last edited by Stinger1982; 12/22/11 at 09:40 AM.
12/22/11, 11:42 AM
#379
Bullitt Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have to agree here. 1 set of pads/rotors for the track...........1 set of pads/rotors for the street. There are even a few companies that have brake compounds for track application and road application that will work on the same rotor... You should always bring an extra set of rotors and pads. You never know and no matter what already you paid for that trackday, weekend, whatever. Get your hard earned money out of it.
I will take it one step further.... If you can't afford it you don't need to be tracking. If you can't do the labor yourself......LEARN! It is very, very, very easy. You don't even have to buy expensive equipment right away. Most anyone at the track would help and at least lone out the tools. You can also buy very cheap tools that work great at Harbor Freight. Anything from a low profile jack to caliper compressors..... Plus now you have these tools for a long long time.
This is coming from someone who learned the hardway..... I went through two sets of different compound front pads, one of which ruined a pair of rotors. Both were more performance street "mild track". Spend the few extra bucks and get real track pads.
This is how fast and heavy our cars are..... I boiled my brakes at VIR. I was running DBA 5000/4000 rotors, Hawk DTC 70/60 pads, AP Racing 600 fluid (better than what most others run), have the brake cooling duct kit. Let's put it this way.....it was close.... I am now for sure moving to Endless RF650 fluid (as far as I can tell the absolute best on the market), and possibly getting the 4 inch brake duct kit vs the 3 inch that comes with the LS. The 4 inch was actually recommended to me by Ford Racing for track duty.......
Here is just a random link I found when when I googled the fluid. Tells you a little bit about who uses the product and how it performs......
http://www.vividracing.com/blog/anno...n-motorsports/
I will take it one step further.... If you can't afford it you don't need to be tracking. If you can't do the labor yourself......LEARN! It is very, very, very easy. You don't even have to buy expensive equipment right away. Most anyone at the track would help and at least lone out the tools. You can also buy very cheap tools that work great at Harbor Freight. Anything from a low profile jack to caliper compressors..... Plus now you have these tools for a long long time.
This is coming from someone who learned the hardway..... I went through two sets of different compound front pads, one of which ruined a pair of rotors. Both were more performance street "mild track". Spend the few extra bucks and get real track pads.
This is how fast and heavy our cars are..... I boiled my brakes at VIR. I was running DBA 5000/4000 rotors, Hawk DTC 70/60 pads, AP Racing 600 fluid (better than what most others run), have the brake cooling duct kit. Let's put it this way.....it was close.... I am now for sure moving to Endless RF650 fluid (as far as I can tell the absolute best on the market), and possibly getting the 4 inch brake duct kit vs the 3 inch that comes with the LS. The 4 inch was actually recommended to me by Ford Racing for track duty.......
Here is just a random link I found when when I googled the fluid. Tells you a little bit about who uses the product and how it performs......
http://www.vividracing.com/blog/anno...n-motorsports/
Last edited by adam81; 12/22/11 at 11:47 AM.
12/22/11, 11:55 AM
#380
Adam you might want to look into the titanium backing plates for your pads ($160/set) if you're boiling RBF600, or adjust your braking technique. I am assuming you already have ducting in-place.
Also, welcome back, Shaun
Also, welcome back, Shaun