Mustang 3.5L Ecoboost engine swap
2/26/16, 02:43 PM
#1041
Mach 1 Member
, full documentation even for ghetto experiments
2/27/16, 12:03 AM
#1043
Member
Join Date: January 28, 2016
Location: Drouin Australia
Posts: 19
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Hi gents,
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
2/27/16, 10:08 AM
#1044
Mach 1 Member
Hi gents,
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
yes we are fully aware of this. Couple of thoughts:
- we have the blackbox to read CAN data and put it back with the correct header. So we can use this to make sure the right information will be sent to the cluster
- Zero will give us a CAN scanner to see what is going on and to see what we need to do with the black box
- reading the speed from the PCM directly shows zero all the time
- Speed is determined by the OSS. Hence manuals have OSS, too and don't have the PCM controlling the shifts
- If the speed solely comes from the ABS module, there would be no reason to change axle gear ratio's in the PCM. Only wheel size would matter. But that is not the case.
LEXiiON
2/27/16, 01:39 PM
#1045
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Hi gents,
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
Might need to check up on where signals come from in the F150.
Typically the OSS and turbine speed sensors are used to control/tune shift speed (how quickly the shifts occur) by the PCM and to compensate for wear in the transmission.
The vehicle speed is put on the CAN by the ABS unit - it determines vehicle speed from the 4 wheel speed sensors and lets everyone else know.
If your speedo is being controlled by the accel pedal then it is likely that the F150 CAN uses different header addresses than the Mustang. ie. the cluster is receiving an accel message on a header that an F150 would put the vehicle speed.
If so then it gets a little complicated as you have to work out a way to get the right information into the cluster - a possible solution includes disconnecting the cluster from the CAN intercepting the message that needs modifying, modifying it with a new control unit of your design, then sending it to the cluster (all messages that don't need modifying could be sent unhindered).
Dunno why manufacturers don't use the same CAN header/information formats in all models as it makes for a lot of work for us car nuts and commonisation would just make good sense.
Again, you'll need to map the CAN to confirm where vehicle speed comes from first.
Hope this helps.
2/27/16, 05:48 PM
#1046
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Unfortunately the Shelby has a different speed sensor despite many vendors selling the mt-82 speed sensor for the gt500. It only has a 2 wire sensor vs the mt-82 having a 3 wire sensor.
I didn't figure this out until spending an hour making the pigtail, wiring it in to the f150 harness, and lifting the Shelby up high enough to get under it. Lame
I didn't figure this out until spending an hour making the pigtail, wiring it in to the f150 harness, and lifting the Shelby up high enough to get under it. Lame
2/27/16, 06:49 PM
#1047
Mach 1 Member
Unfortunately the Shelby has a different speed sensor despite many vendors selling the mt-82 speed sensor for the gt500. It only has a 2 wire sensor vs the mt-82 having a 3 wire sensor.
I didn't figure this out until spending an hour making the pigtail, wiring it in to the f150 harness, and lifting the Shelby up high enough to get under it. Lame
I didn't figure this out until spending an hour making the pigtail, wiring it in to the f150 harness, and lifting the Shelby up high enough to get under it. Lame
What a ....
LEXiiON
2/27/16, 07:45 PM
#1048
Member
Join Date: January 28, 2016
Location: Drouin Australia
Posts: 19
Received 0 Likes
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0 Posts
Hi there,
yes we are fully aware of this. Couple of thoughts:
- we have the blackbox to read CAN data and put it back with the correct header. So we can use this to make sure the right information will be sent to the cluster
- Zero will give us a CAN scanner to see what is going on and to see what we need to do with the black box
- reading the speed from the PCM directly shows zero all the time
- Speed is determined by the OSS. Hence manuals have OSS, too and don't have the PCM controlling the shifts
- If the speed solely comes from the ABS module, there would be no reason to change axle gear ratio's in the PCM. Only wheel size would matter. But that is not the case.
LEXiiON
yes we are fully aware of this. Couple of thoughts:
- we have the blackbox to read CAN data and put it back with the correct header. So we can use this to make sure the right information will be sent to the cluster
- Zero will give us a CAN scanner to see what is going on and to see what we need to do with the black box
- reading the speed from the PCM directly shows zero all the time
- Speed is determined by the OSS. Hence manuals have OSS, too and don't have the PCM controlling the shifts
- If the speed solely comes from the ABS module, there would be no reason to change axle gear ratio's in the PCM. Only wheel size would matter. But that is not the case.
LEXiiON
Good stuff LEXiiON,
I'm very interested in this "blackbox" you have. Is it just a CAN sniffer - I use Ginkgo Viewtool - Chinese, cheap, but effective - to read and inject messages but it isn't as sophisticated as what you describe.
Just been trawling through the F150 workshop manual and can confirm.....
- the ABS sends out "wheel speed" data to the TCCM,BCM,IPC, PCM,PSCM
- the PCM sends out "vehicle speed" data to the ABS, BCM, IPC, OCSM, PAM, PSCM, RCM, SCCM
Your thoughts re the tyre size and diff ratio look good - I'm thinking that the PCM uses "wheel speed" and "Vehicle speed" as a check to make sure all is okay (ie. correct parameters entered) and, more importantly, to enact emissions protocols when the correct conditions are met. It is possible that you get a "zero" vehicle speed all the time because this is the default when the wheel speed and the OSS speed don't correlate - ie. the PCM doesn't like what it is seeing so it outputs a zero.
**** this stuff is interesting...
2/27/16, 07:59 PM
#1049
Mach 1 Member
Good stuff LEXiiON,
I'm very interested in this "blackbox" you have. Is it just a CAN sniffer - I use Ginkgo Viewtool - Chinese, cheap, but effective - to read and inject messages but it isn't as sophisticated as what you describe.
Just been trawling through the F150 workshop manual and can confirm.....
- the ABS sends out "wheel speed" data to the TCCM,BCM,IPC, PCM,PSCM
- the PCM sends out "vehicle speed" data to the ABS, BCM, IPC, OCSM, PAM, PSCM, RCM, SCCM
Your thoughts re the tyre size and diff ratio look good - I'm thinking that the PCM uses "wheel speed" and "Vehicle speed" as a check to make sure all is okay (ie. correct parameters entered) and, more importantly, to enact emissions protocols when the correct conditions are met. It is possible that you get a "zero" vehicle speed all the time because this is the default when the wheel speed and the OSS speed don't correlate - ie. the PCM doesn't like what it is seeing so it outputs a zero.
**** this stuff is interesting...
I'm very interested in this "blackbox" you have. Is it just a CAN sniffer - I use Ginkgo Viewtool - Chinese, cheap, but effective - to read and inject messages but it isn't as sophisticated as what you describe.
Just been trawling through the F150 workshop manual and can confirm.....
- the ABS sends out "wheel speed" data to the TCCM,BCM,IPC, PCM,PSCM
- the PCM sends out "vehicle speed" data to the ABS, BCM, IPC, OCSM, PAM, PSCM, RCM, SCCM
Your thoughts re the tyre size and diff ratio look good - I'm thinking that the PCM uses "wheel speed" and "Vehicle speed" as a check to make sure all is okay (ie. correct parameters entered) and, more importantly, to enact emissions protocols when the correct conditions are met. It is possible that you get a "zero" vehicle speed all the time because this is the default when the wheel speed and the OSS speed don't correlate - ie. the PCM doesn't like what it is seeing so it outputs a zero.
**** this stuff is interesting...
The black box is something ZeroAviation developed. I used it to get certain things added to the 2013+ mustang cluster, that my PCM didn't sent out in the correct format. Works pretty well and Matt can update it as needed.
I need to double check on the ABS module though. Last time I hooked up IDS, it didn't show up. We have added some wiring in the meantime, so it might be there. Something I need to verify next time I am over at Eco's garage.
The wheel speed is important for the PCM. It is used to limit throttle when traction control kicks in. PSCM needs ABS wheel speed and YAW, among other things.
LEXiiON
Last edited by LEXiiON; 2/27/16 at 08:08 PM.
2/28/16, 09:31 AM
#1050
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
2/28/16, 09:33 AM
#1051
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Good stuff LEXiiON,
I'm very interested in this "blackbox" you have. Is it just a CAN sniffer - I use Ginkgo Viewtool - Chinese, cheap, but effective - to read and inject messages but it isn't as sophisticated as what you describe.
Just been trawling through the F150 workshop manual and can confirm.....
- the ABS sends out "wheel speed" data to the TCCM,BCM,IPC, PCM,PSCM
- the PCM sends out "vehicle speed" data to the ABS, BCM, IPC, OCSM, PAM, PSCM, RCM, SCCM
Your thoughts re the tyre size and diff ratio look good - I'm thinking that the PCM uses "wheel speed" and "Vehicle speed" as a check to make sure all is okay (ie. correct parameters entered) and, more importantly, to enact emissions protocols when the correct conditions are met. It is possible that you get a "zero" vehicle speed all the time because this is the default when the wheel speed and the OSS speed don't correlate - ie. the PCM doesn't like what it is seeing so it outputs a zero.
**** this stuff is interesting...
I'm very interested in this "blackbox" you have. Is it just a CAN sniffer - I use Ginkgo Viewtool - Chinese, cheap, but effective - to read and inject messages but it isn't as sophisticated as what you describe.
Just been trawling through the F150 workshop manual and can confirm.....
- the ABS sends out "wheel speed" data to the TCCM,BCM,IPC, PCM,PSCM
- the PCM sends out "vehicle speed" data to the ABS, BCM, IPC, OCSM, PAM, PSCM, RCM, SCCM
Your thoughts re the tyre size and diff ratio look good - I'm thinking that the PCM uses "wheel speed" and "Vehicle speed" as a check to make sure all is okay (ie. correct parameters entered) and, more importantly, to enact emissions protocols when the correct conditions are met. It is possible that you get a "zero" vehicle speed all the time because this is the default when the wheel speed and the OSS speed don't correlate - ie. the PCM doesn't like what it is seeing so it outputs a zero.
**** this stuff is interesting...
2/28/16, 10:19 AM
#1053
Mach 1 Member
2/29/16, 08:42 AM
#1054
V6 Member
I'm not going to pretend I know my head from my rear on all this computer stuff, but would it be easier or even just possible (or in budget) to use something like a racepak in place of the stock cluster?
2/29/16, 09:10 AM
#1055
Mach 1 Member
LEXiiON
2/29/16, 09:40 AM
#1056
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
We could. However the stock cluster is working fine, except speed and coolant temp. But even the PCM is not showing speed. So we need to fix the OSS anyways. Why it doesn't show coolant, needs to be determined. But that could be done with an external gauge. Coolant temp is shown in the datalog.
LEXiiON
LEXiiON
I do have one gauge pod still empty if we need to make it coolant. I would rather not use it for coolant but it's always an option.
2/29/16, 10:13 PM
#1057
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
I got the 5.0 TB today. I'm going to send it to vmax motorsports with the intake to have it ported to match the TB. It will need to be opened up all the way to the gasket. Since I won't have the inside edge holding the gasket I'll probably glue the gasket in place to make sure it doesn't slip around while installing the TB. Vmax Motorsports will also drill the mounting new holes for the TB.
I'm having this done to the extra intake I have with the added injectors, I won't be adding anything like this to the car until the tune is sorted out.
The TB gasket lands perfectly on the inside edge of the TB, if it was 1mm larger I think it would be a problem.
I'm having this done to the extra intake I have with the added injectors, I won't be adding anything like this to the car until the tune is sorted out.
The TB gasket lands perfectly on the inside edge of the TB, if it was 1mm larger I think it would be a problem.
Last edited by Ecostang; 2/29/16 at 10:17 PM.
3/2/16, 11:38 PM
#1058
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Jegs has crazy deals on roll cages right now, I ordered a 10 point inc shipping for $222! I thought about going with chromoly, it's $400 more and approx 40% less weight. As many things as I still need to buy before this race season I really couldn't justify it. Probably would have saved me around 50 lbs.
8 point
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949303K/10002/-1
10 point
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
8 point
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949303K/10002/-1
10 point
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
Last edited by Ecostang; 3/3/16 at 08:03 AM.
3/3/16, 01:20 PM
#1059
Cobra Member
trying to understand.
how is this cage a 10 point cage?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
I thought that each point was a mounting point. I only see 8 mounting points.
What am I not understanding.
question.. why are there 6 mounting plates that I guess bolt in and the other 2 are plain end pipe that require to be trimmed and welded.
There must be a reason that all points don't come with mounting plates.
Only thing that I did not like was the term>>>mild steel. When I hear that I think of fence post steel or schedule 10 pipe.
Not crazy about that. On my tomb stone it will say he save 30lbs and still lost.
I rather go with a solid 4 or 6 point bar made from schedule 40 pipe and call it a day as I was walking away from the rollover.
I'm a plumber by trade and know about pipe.
Cant say that about roll bars and there design.
I just know the strength in different schedules of pipe.
Thank you in advance for the schooling.
how is this cage a 10 point cage?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
I thought that each point was a mounting point. I only see 8 mounting points.
What am I not understanding.
question.. why are there 6 mounting plates that I guess bolt in and the other 2 are plain end pipe that require to be trimmed and welded.
There must be a reason that all points don't come with mounting plates.
Only thing that I did not like was the term>>>mild steel. When I hear that I think of fence post steel or schedule 10 pipe.
Not crazy about that. On my tomb stone it will say he save 30lbs and still lost.
I rather go with a solid 4 or 6 point bar made from schedule 40 pipe and call it a day as I was walking away from the rollover.
I'm a plumber by trade and know about pipe.
Cant say that about roll bars and there design.
I just know the strength in different schedules of pipe.
Thank you in advance for the schooling.
3/3/16, 01:46 PM
#1060
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
trying to understand.
how is this cage a 10 point cage?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
I thought that each point was a mounting point. I only see 8 mounting points.
What am I not understanding.
question.. why are there 6 mounting plates that I guess bolt in and the other 2 are plain end pipe that require to be trimmed and welded.
There must be a reason that all points don't come with mounting plates.
Only thing that I did not like was the term>>>mild steel. When I hear that I think of fence post steel or schedule 10 pipe.
Not crazy about that. On my tomb stone it will say he save 30lbs and still lost.
I rather go with a solid 4 or 6 point bar made from schedule 40 pipe and call it a day as I was walking away from the rollover.
I'm a plumber by trade and know about pipe.
Cant say that about roll bars and there design.
I just know the strength in different schedules of pipe.
Thank you in advance for the schooling.
how is this cage a 10 point cage?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/949304K/10002/-1
I thought that each point was a mounting point. I only see 8 mounting points.
What am I not understanding.
question.. why are there 6 mounting plates that I guess bolt in and the other 2 are plain end pipe that require to be trimmed and welded.
There must be a reason that all points don't come with mounting plates.
Only thing that I did not like was the term>>>mild steel. When I hear that I think of fence post steel or schedule 10 pipe.
Not crazy about that. On my tomb stone it will say he save 30lbs and still lost.
I rather go with a solid 4 or 6 point bar made from schedule 40 pipe and call it a day as I was walking away from the rollover.
I'm a plumber by trade and know about pipe.
Cant say that about roll bars and there design.
I just know the strength in different schedules of pipe.
Thank you in advance for the schooling.
I'm not sure about the mounting plates, I may do some additional work to strengthen the cage. I did order steel gussets with the cage that the instructions say you need.
Yes the chromoly would be stronger than the mild steel if it were the same thickness, but it's not the same thickness. The reason why it's lighter is because a thinner wall can be used for the same strength as mild steel, .134 wall thickness of mild steel vs .083 for the chromoly. This cage would be NHRA certified to go 8.5 seconds in the 1/4 mi in mild steel. I could be wrong but I bet you have the same strength in the chromoly or mild steel cage. My thinking is why would the NHRA dictate thickness of material for roll cages and recommend something that isn't safe or that would have a different level of safety for different materials. Again I could be wrong, maybe the chromoly is marginally safer?
One more thing to point out. The 8 point OD is 1 3/4" tubing and the 10 point is 1 5/8" to be NHRA certified. That's why I went with the 10 point, additional saftey with the halo and probably not much heavier overall with the reduction of tubing size OD.
I also look at this like a starting place, I will probably beef up this cage where I can. I know that an "x" though the halo will help tremdously with strength so I'll probably add that.
Also chromoly has to be tig welded and mild steel is mig welded, I don't own a tig welder.
Last edited by Ecostang; 3/3/16 at 01:51 PM.