This is why shocks matter.....
10/8/10, 02:51 PM
#81
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Take a few minutes to read this article. Note that it's a Brembo car with the upgrade shocks. As you read page 4, you'll see why the first mod my car got was a set of Koni shocks (and later set of even higher end AST shocks for my autocrossing--though they are very, very nice on the street).
Here are the pertinent quotes from Randy Pobst--who like me is an SCCA Solo National Champion. Though he's gone onto some other things.
"That live rear axle setup? A non-issue for both of us. "The undulations I felt at high speeds in the bumps did not appear to be coming from a lack of control of the rear axle," says Randy, who suspects a damper issue. "The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track," says Pobst. "I don't know for sure how fast my speed was, but it sure felt a lot quicker in the BMW."
Which is why when pressed, Randy admits that he believes he set the fastest lap in the M3. So do I. "I think the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed," he says. "It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz0xSOW3Djv
I'm always on these forums and shocks/struts are the first thing I recommend doing to make a car drive better, because they give you confidence and stability, and when they adjustable allow you to tune how the car reacts and rides to what you want, not what some engineer wanted.
Here are the pertinent quotes from Randy Pobst--who like me is an SCCA Solo National Champion. Though he's gone onto some other things.
"That live rear axle setup? A non-issue for both of us. "The undulations I felt at high speeds in the bumps did not appear to be coming from a lack of control of the rear axle," says Randy, who suspects a damper issue. "The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track," says Pobst. "I don't know for sure how fast my speed was, but it sure felt a lot quicker in the BMW."
Which is why when pressed, Randy admits that he believes he set the fastest lap in the M3. So do I. "I think the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed," he says. "It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz0xSOW3Djv
I'm always on these forums and shocks/struts are the first thing I recommend doing to make a car drive better, because they give you confidence and stability, and when they adjustable allow you to tune how the car reacts and rides to what you want, not what some engineer wanted.
10/9/10, 05:44 AM
#82
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GREAT SUGGESTION GUYS!
95CobraR /Sam:
I readed this:
(quote from Stinger1982)
(IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
The panhard bar's job is to locate the axle left to right in relation to the body/chassis.
When you lower the car you change the angle of the Panhard bar and that causes the axle to shift to one side. " )
And it seems to make sense
. I will like to hear your opinion about this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also Sam,
I see that you went for leather seats. In the new '11 GT. Do you see any advantage of going for leather seat VS cloth seats, regarding keep in you planted firmly in the cookpit during high-G cornering or is the same thing?
95CobraR /Sam:
I readed this:
(quote from Stinger1982)
(IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
The panhard bar's job is to locate the axle left to right in relation to the body/chassis.
When you lower the car you change the angle of the Panhard bar and that causes the axle to shift to one side. " )
And it seems to make sense
. I will like to hear your opinion about this.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also Sam,
I see that you went for leather seats. In the new '11 GT. Do you see any advantage of going for leather seat VS cloth seats, regarding keep in you planted firmly in the cookpit during high-G cornering or is the same thing?
10/9/10, 08:51 AM
#83
Legacy TMS Member
After reading the whole Thread, and doing spirited driving for most of my life I am looking for an opinion on what I am planning on doing with my 10 V6 Suspension. Now I realize this is the 5.0 V8 section, but suspension is suspension and carving corners is good no matter what you are doing it in.
I had planned on using Vogtland springs, .8 inch front 1.2 inch in the rear. I had also planned on using Steeda Pro Action Shocks and Struts for the Dampners. But now reading this on the Koni SRT.T might be a better choice for what I am looking for.
I have looked at the FRPP PP for the V6, and IMO that is going to be way to low for what I am doing
The car is my Daily Driver and most of the Spirited driving is in the Mountains and one of the roads I go to is like 11 miles of S corners.
Still am open to what anti sway bars but was leaning toward the Hellwig.
I also will in time do upper and lower control arms in the back.
I had planned on using Vogtland springs, .8 inch front 1.2 inch in the rear. I had also planned on using Steeda Pro Action Shocks and Struts for the Dampners. But now reading this on the Koni SRT.T might be a better choice for what I am looking for.
I have looked at the FRPP PP for the V6, and IMO that is going to be way to low for what I am doing
The car is my Daily Driver and most of the Spirited driving is in the Mountains and one of the roads I go to is like 11 miles of S corners.
Still am open to what anti sway bars but was leaning toward the Hellwig.
I also will in time do upper and lower control arms in the back.
Last edited by Siber Express; 10/9/10 at 08:54 AM.
10/10/10, 05:59 AM
#85
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10/11/10, 12:12 PM
#86
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The 2011 Brembo brake/2010 TrackPac suspension is very good from the factory (the Brembo brake option is not just the brakes but the entire suspension).
To be fair, this was Willow Springs. It's a short, tight 1.8 mile track. The M3 is 72 pounds lighter (and has bigger brakes) so it may do better at a different track.
Originally Posted by from Stinger1982)
(IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
[I
(IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
[I
The panhard bar's job is to locate the axle left to right in relation to the body/chassis.[/i]
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=11905
I'd also worry about the stock dampers since they were engineered with the stock springs. You will lower the damper action by ~1". This could cause another problem.
The pinion angle will also be modified by the 1" drop. This could place a load on the pinion bearing (or worse).
It will certainly require a re-alignment of the front suspension. The toe, camber, and bump steer will all be affected.
I'd call a sponsor on this site (or FRPP) and explain your mods and ask them for recommendations. I have always found that using someone else's R&D is much cheaper than inventing mine.
12/14/10, 08:22 PM
#87
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The dive isn't as much dive as it is the tail coming up. Again, better damping will help as this won't be as sudden as the shocks will slow it down. Springs will help some as they will help cut both dive and a little lift (shorter stiffer rear springs). But the majority of it is geometry related.
Really I'd have to recommend Koni Sports in this case to be able to tune the rebound damping vs. a set of Koni STR.T's in which the damping is fixed.
Really I'd have to recommend Koni Sports in this case to be able to tune the rebound damping vs. a set of Koni STR.T's in which the damping is fixed.
If I had to decide between having the Koni STR.T plus the Steeda Sport Springs (maybe to include the Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar) or just to get only the Koni Sport adjustable dampers with the regular Brembo springs. Which will it be the best option for a great road & track driving, getting the best handling for the price benefit? Which will handle better in the GT VS M3 comparation?
12/14/10, 11:10 PM
#88
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Sam, what are your recommendations for coil-overs? I know I want coils eventually, so I don't see much use in getting springs or shocks now just to replace them later. Do you prefer the KW's or H&R's? It seems like the KW's have more adjustable shocks, but the H&R's have progressive rate springs. What are linear rate springs like on the road? I don't mind a little harshness, but I would like to be able to have passengers without them *****ing 
12/15/10, 07:28 AM
#89
uh oh, you said the C-word
12/15/10, 10:23 AM
#90
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Sam,
If I had to decide between having the Koni STR.T plus the Steeda Sport Springs (maybe to include the Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar) or just to get only the Koni Sport adjustable dampers with the regular Brembo springs. Which will it be the best option for a great road & track driving, getting the best handling for the price benefit? Which will handle better in the GT VS M3 comparation?
If I had to decide between having the Koni STR.T plus the Steeda Sport Springs (maybe to include the Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar) or just to get only the Koni Sport adjustable dampers with the regular Brembo springs. Which will it be the best option for a great road & track driving, getting the best handling for the price benefit? Which will handle better in the GT VS M3 comparation?
We are clearly trying to fit a budget, without compromising how the car works I'd recommend the STR.T/Sport spring combo over the Koni Sport/stock spring combo. for your use.
Here's why: The OEM springs are very stiff in the rear relative to the front. It sits very high. As good as adjustable shocks are they can't change spring rates.
The STR.T's will give more rebound damping (not adjustable, but better than OEM and suitable for controlling the springs well) which helps the car feel more tied-down, stable. And the ride a bit better too.
The spring change will get the front to rear wheel rates more balanced (and not pushy or understeery at all). The Cg will be lowered (and that's not a bad thing in such a heavy car). Roll and some brake dive will be cut. Dampers will also help dive in that it slows it down, but doesn't ultimately cut any out. And just so you know, springs won't cut it all out either--most is just a function of a lack of anti-dive in the front and rear suspensions.
12/15/10, 10:33 AM
#91
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Sam, what are your recommendations for coil-overs? I know I want coils eventually, so I don't see much use in getting springs or shocks now just to replace them later. Do you prefer the KW's or H&R's? It seems like the KW's have more adjustable shocks, but the H&R's have progressive rate springs. What are linear rate springs like on the road? I don't mind a little harshness, but I would like to be able to have passengers without them *****ing
06GT said that because I often find folks think coil-overs are some magical panacea of suspension parts. Do I prefer KW's over H&R? Depends on which KW's are are talking about and the use they will be put through. I don't much care for non-adjustable dampers if you are truly trying to set a car up to work well. Coil-over kits with non-adjustable dampers strike me as odd. Folks want "adjustment" in their height, where it's damper adjustment that really makes the car drive differently--and on a street car the ability to screw around with height is pretty much a looks thing vs. a set of appropriate lowering springs. Also coil-overs tend to run much stiffer spring rates which will hurt the ride more.
So you have to ask yourself, what are you really going to get from coil-overs? If you are happy that a set is what you want then it's time to decide which ones. KW V3's are the only version of KW or H&R that offer you damping adjustment. V1's and none of the H&R's allow you to play with the damping level at all.
And if you want to know if damping changes effect how a car drives, the answer is hell yes. In fact you need only look at a lot of new high-end performance cars (or even the Boss) they are all coming now with some sort of adjustable dampers on them because they can be used to dial in the car for different instances or preferences.
And regarding the progressive v. linear springs.... I want linears, you won't find progressives on any sort of serious handling car because you don't want to introduce an ever changing variable.
And also, if you think about it--even linear springs are really progressive in that it takes more and more force to compress them farther and farther. The term progressive where it's used in springs is kind of bastardized IMO, and should be more properly termed variable rate. But that doesn't sound as good--so nobody trying to sell them calls them that, kind of makes folks see through the "they ride soft but stiffen up when required" sales pitch you often see.
Last edited by sam strano; 12/15/10 at 10:37 AM.
12/15/10, 02:22 PM
#92
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Ha-ha.... he said the C-word. 06GT said that because I often find folks think coil-overs are some magical panacea of suspension parts.
Do I prefer KW's over H&R? Depends on which KW's are are talking about and the use they will be put through. I don't much care for non-adjustable dampers if you are truly trying to set a car up to work well. Coil-over kits with non-adjustable dampers strike me as odd. Folks want "adjustment" in their height, where it's damper adjustment that really makes the car drive differently--and on a street car the ability to screw around with height is pretty much a looks thing vs. a set of appropriate lowering springs. Also coil-overs tend to run much stiffer spring rates which will hurt the ride more.
So you have to ask yourself, what are you really going to get from coil-overs? If you are happy that a set is what you want then it's time to decide which ones. KW V3's are the only version of KW or H&R that offer you damping adjustment. V1's and none of the H&R's allow you to play with the damping level at all.
And if you want to know if damping changes effect how a car drives, the answer is hell yes. In fact you need only look at a lot of new high-end performance cars (or even the Boss) they are all coming now with some sort of adjustable dampers on them because they can be used to dial in the car for different instances or preferences.
And regarding the progressive v. linear springs.... I want linears, you won't find progressives on any sort of serious handling car because you don't want to introduce an ever changing variable. And also, if you think about it--even linear springs are really progressive in that it takes more and more force to compress them farther and farther. The term progressive where it's used in springs is kind of bastardized IMO, and should be more properly termed variable rate. But that doesn't sound as good--so nobody trying to sell them calls them that, kind of makes folks see through the "they ride soft but stiffen up when required" sales pitch you often see.
06GT said that because I often find folks think coil-overs are some magical panacea of suspension parts. Do I prefer KW's over H&R? Depends on which KW's are are talking about and the use they will be put through. I don't much care for non-adjustable dampers if you are truly trying to set a car up to work well. Coil-over kits with non-adjustable dampers strike me as odd. Folks want "adjustment" in their height, where it's damper adjustment that really makes the car drive differently--and on a street car the ability to screw around with height is pretty much a looks thing vs. a set of appropriate lowering springs. Also coil-overs tend to run much stiffer spring rates which will hurt the ride more.
So you have to ask yourself, what are you really going to get from coil-overs? If you are happy that a set is what you want then it's time to decide which ones. KW V3's are the only version of KW or H&R that offer you damping adjustment. V1's and none of the H&R's allow you to play with the damping level at all.
And if you want to know if damping changes effect how a car drives, the answer is hell yes. In fact you need only look at a lot of new high-end performance cars (or even the Boss) they are all coming now with some sort of adjustable dampers on them because they can be used to dial in the car for different instances or preferences.
And regarding the progressive v. linear springs.... I want linears, you won't find progressives on any sort of serious handling car because you don't want to introduce an ever changing variable.
And also, if you think about it--even linear springs are really progressive in that it takes more and more force to compress them farther and farther. The term progressive where it's used in springs is kind of bastardized IMO, and should be more properly termed variable rate. But that doesn't sound as good--so nobody trying to sell them calls them that, kind of makes folks see through the "they ride soft but stiffen up when required" sales pitch you often see. If the V3's are the only ones with damping adjustment, then those are the ones I will go with. I agree that coil overs without adjustable dampers is dumb. Are there any other brands worth looking at?
Good point on the springs, I never thought about it like that. All of the lowering springs out there are "progressive" so I was convinced those were ideal. But it makes little sense to spend the money on an adjustable suspension to add something variable into the mix. Thanks for all this help by the way, you're taking customer service to a whole new level
12/15/10, 04:51 PM
#95
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Do I carry any? Um, sure. Eibach, H&R, Steeda Ultralite, the other version of Steeda Sports that I don't normally use, *plenty of choices there is you want 'em*.
12/15/10, 06:10 PM
#96
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Hmmmm, that's one I have not yet been presented with in such a blunt way. We are clearly trying to fit a budget, without compromising how the car works
I'd recommend the STR.T/Sport spring combo over the Koni Sport/stock spring combo. for your use.
Here's why: The OEM springs are very stiff in the rear relative to the front. It sits very high. As good as adjustable shocks are they can't change spring rates.
The STR.T's will give more rebound damping (not adjustable, but better than OEM and suitable for controlling the springs well) which helps the car feel more tied-down, stable. And the ride a bit better too.
The spring change will get the front to rear wheel rates more balanced (and not pushy or understeery at all). The Cg will be lowered (and that's not a bad thing in such a heavy car). Roll and some brake dive will be cut. Dampers will also help dive in that it slows it down, but doesn't ultimately cut any out. And just so you know, springs won't cut it all out either--most is just a function of a lack of anti-dive in the front and rear suspensions.
We are clearly trying to fit a budget, without compromising how the car works I'd recommend the STR.T/Sport spring combo over the Koni Sport/stock spring combo. for your use.
Here's why: The OEM springs are very stiff in the rear relative to the front. It sits very high. As good as adjustable shocks are they can't change spring rates.
The STR.T's will give more rebound damping (not adjustable, but better than OEM and suitable for controlling the springs well) which helps the car feel more tied-down, stable. And the ride a bit better too.
The spring change will get the front to rear wheel rates more balanced (and not pushy or understeery at all). The Cg will be lowered (and that's not a bad thing in such a heavy car). Roll and some brake dive will be cut. Dampers will also help dive in that it slows it down, but doesn't ultimately cut any out. And just so you know, springs won't cut it all out either--most is just a function of a lack of anti-dive in the front and rear suspensions.
12/15/10, 06:24 PM
#97
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12/16/10, 12:57 PM
#98
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I wasn't tense... Just one of those issues with reading a post, you don't get inflection.
I didn't mean to sound stressed, or think you were trying to get me worked up.
Ultralites are dual stage springs... they are wound in such a way that makes them more linear than not in actual function, but the fact is they are no linear springs and the rates you often see quoted for them do not accurately portray the working rates.
I didn't mean to sound stressed, or think you were trying to get me worked up.
Ultralites are dual stage springs... they are wound in such a way that makes them more linear than not in actual function, but the fact is they are no linear springs and the rates you often see quoted for them do not accurately portray the working rates.
12/16/10, 01:11 PM
#99
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You mentioned no anti dive geometry up front. Have you seen the Whiteline pieces that are supposed to add some of that geometry? Any thoughts on them? Pricey for a control arm bushing/mount.
12/16/10, 01:22 PM
#100
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I have seen them, but if you look at the car stopping hard, you'll see the huge majority of "dive" is actually rear end going, not the front actually slamming down. So while those things can help a little it's not really the cure. They are expensive, and not legal for a lot of competition classes. For instance I can't run them in the classes the car is actually competitive for autox--so I don't use them. And the dive really doesn't both me with good springs and dampers on the car anyway.