This is why shocks matter.....
8/26/10, 08:49 PM
#61
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8/26/10, 08:53 PM
#62
I agree. Hearing more and more what it entails, it really is a more complete package than just wheels and brakes.
8/27/10, 10:28 AM
#63
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Bottom line you option the brakes, you get a "track pack".
8/27/10, 12:21 PM
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Calling it a Track Pack wouldn't of had all the advertising and marketing with the word BREMBO all over it.
Brembo probably gave Ford a pretty handsome "deal" on the brakes if they called it the Brembo Brake Package, instead of Track Pack with the Brembo brakes a footnote in the description.
8/27/10, 01:42 PM
#65
Yeah Brembo has some pretty good brand recognition. Additionally, by not calling it a "Track Pack" you get the chance that more people will buy the car w/ that option, because it doesn't sound like a hardened track-dog package.
8/27/10, 01:58 PM
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All very true. I remember even when the specs for the car were revealed, the Ford guys sort of downplayed or omitted suspension differences between the Brembo and non-Brembo. If you remember they kept on talking about how "all GTs have upgraded suspension based on the 2010 track pack." This is true, however, we now know the Brembo cars have an even further tuned suspension.
8/30/10, 10:44 AM
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I'm a Koni Sport fan, and that's my preference. But Koni STR.T can damp them, but without any adjustment--or you could think about Tokico D-specs. Have used all 3, sell all 3. Those are the only 3 I'd seriously consider. But I also carry Bilstein (great, but no better than the less expensive Koni STR.T--and not adjustable like Sport or D-specs).
9/3/10, 03:32 AM
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I'm a Koni Sport fan, and that's my preference. But Koni STR.T can damp them, but without any adjustment--or you could think about Tokico D-specs. Have used all 3, sell all 3. Those are the only 3 I'd seriously consider. But I also carry Bilstein (great, but no better than the less expensive Koni STR.T--and not adjustable like Sport or D-specs).
9/24/10, 05:27 PM
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'11 best mustang ever
Take a few minutes to read this article. Note that it's a Brembo car with the upgrade shocks. As you read page 4, you'll see why the first mod my car got was a set of Koni shocks (and later set of even higher end AST shocks for my autocrossing--though they are very, very nice on the street).
Here are the pertinent quotes from Randy Pobst--who like me is an SCCA Solo National Champion. Though he's gone onto some other things.
"That live rear axle setup? A non-issue for both of us. "The undulations I felt at high speeds in the bumps did not appear to be coming from a lack of control of the rear axle," says Randy, who suspects a damper issue. "The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track," says Pobst. "I don't know for sure how fast my speed was, but it sure felt a lot quicker in the BMW."
Which is why when pressed, Randy admits that he believes he set the fastest lap in the M3. So do I. "I think the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed," he says. "It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz0xSOW3Djv
I'm always on these forums and shocks/struts are the first thing I recommend doing to make a car drive better, because they give you confidence and stability, and when they adjustable allow you to tune how the car reacts and rides to what you want, not what some engineer wanted.
Here are the pertinent quotes from Randy Pobst--who like me is an SCCA Solo National Champion. Though he's gone onto some other things.
"That live rear axle setup? A non-issue for both of us. "The undulations I felt at high speeds in the bumps did not appear to be coming from a lack of control of the rear axle," says Randy, who suspects a damper issue. "The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track," says Pobst. "I don't know for sure how fast my speed was, but it sure felt a lot quicker in the BMW."
Which is why when pressed, Randy admits that he believes he set the fastest lap in the M3. So do I. "I think the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed," he says. "It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz0xSOW3Djv
I'm always on these forums and shocks/struts are the first thing I recommend doing to make a car drive better, because they give you confidence and stability, and when they adjustable allow you to tune how the car reacts and rides to what you want, not what some engineer wanted.
Coming from a Porsche Carrera, that I also modified for the track (Bilstein HD shocks, H&R springs and sport swaybars). I'm really impresed by the performance of the new '11 GT as well of the '11 Shelby, (one already on the league of the M3 and the other competing with the Corvette Grand Sport, what will the '12 BOSS will bring. How will FORD face off the new '12 Z28, that will be very interesting.
In other hand I have been reading your posts
, and I think you have the perfect formula to beat the M3, with the Koni STR.T and 3.31 gears. Only one question I still have open. I readed in the same article: "Another shockers is how hard it dives when those four pistons Brembo calipers bite down". "The car stands on its nose when you go to brake", says Randy, "And there's a fair amount of squat, so you feel a lot of pitch. It doesn't seem to be hurting the cars braking or entry that much, but it's disconcerting".Sam which is your suggestion to solve this issue with the '11 GT. I'm planing very soon to replace my Carrera for a '11 Brembo GT, and after it, surely I will buy from you the STR.T shocks. Thanks in advance for the info.
JM
9/27/10, 06:03 PM
#71
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The dive isn't as much dive as it is the tail coming up. Again, better damping will help as this won't be as sudden as the shocks will slow it down. Springs will help some as they will help cut both dive and a little lift (shorter stiffer rear springs). But the majority of it is geometry related.
Really I'd have to recommend Koni Sports in this case to be able to tune the rebound damping vs. a set of Koni STR.T's in which the damping is fixed.
Really I'd have to recommend Koni Sports in this case to be able to tune the rebound damping vs. a set of Koni STR.T's in which the damping is fixed.
9/27/10, 09:00 PM
#73
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Very interesting info Sam / CW,
I readed on anoher post from Stinger1982, the following:
"I DO NOT RECOMEND THE 1.5" DROP SPRING FOR ANY STREET CAR PERIOD. THEY ARE BEING SWAPPED OUT OF MY CAR NEXT WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The FRPP 1" drop spring is in my experience the best spring for the S-197 for both a street car or an open track car.
You can change just the springs, its safe to change springs without shocks. HOWEVER I feel its a bad idea. The factory dampers were designed for use in conjunction with a spring of a certain spring rate. when you DRASTICALY change that spring rate that’s OEM shocks ability to control that spring is greatly reduced. With MI roads as crappy as they are and the unknown (something in the road you need to swerve and say there is a bump in the road) I have never and will never put an aggressive spring on an OEM shock.
IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
The panhard bar's job is to locate the axle left to right in relation to the body/chassis.
When you lower the car you change the angle of the Panhard bar and that causes the axle to shift to one side. "
__________________
Probably the 1" lowering spring is a good compromise.
Advantage of the Steeda sport springs VS FRPP 1" M-5300-P?. Koni Sport's like you say Sam will be probably the best option.
Do I need to go with the shock-spring set up: an adjustable panhard bar, Mustang GT front strut mount upgrade (M-18183-A), Jounce Bumper Kit (M-5570-A) & The Mustang GT strut tower brace.
I ask since in my Carrera I just changed the shocks and the lowering springs plus a racing sport alignment; And that was it. I'm not familiarized with what I will need for the Mustang rear live axle suspension.
The intention of my next '11 GT Brembo will be of a Daily driver with ocassional DE or autocross.
When I go racing speed Is probably higher than autocross, since is done in on airport, and the curves are very tight, some of them are 45 degree flat curves, track is not very even, since you are able to see and be able to feel the separations of the road.
The regular road is the two triangles (including the one with the dry gator pound).
Last time that I raced, I beated a modified C5 corvette (by .03 secs.) and a '08 Mustang GT (by ,11 secs.). My only mods, where shocks, sport springs, and sport swaybars, Michellin street tires.
I readed on anoher post from Stinger1982, the following:
"I DO NOT RECOMEND THE 1.5" DROP SPRING FOR ANY STREET CAR PERIOD. THEY ARE BEING SWAPPED OUT OF MY CAR NEXT WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The FRPP 1" drop spring is in my experience the best spring for the S-197 for both a street car or an open track car.
You can change just the springs, its safe to change springs without shocks. HOWEVER I feel its a bad idea. The factory dampers were designed for use in conjunction with a spring of a certain spring rate. when you DRASTICALY change that spring rate that’s OEM shocks ability to control that spring is greatly reduced. With MI roads as crappy as they are and the unknown (something in the road you need to swerve and say there is a bump in the road) I have never and will never put an aggressive spring on an OEM shock.
IF YOU LOWER THE CAR EVEN 1" YOU MUST PUT AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR ON THE CAR PERIOD!!!!!!!
The panhard bar's job is to locate the axle left to right in relation to the body/chassis.
When you lower the car you change the angle of the Panhard bar and that causes the axle to shift to one side. "
__________________
Probably the 1" lowering spring is a good compromise.
Advantage of the Steeda sport springs VS FRPP 1" M-5300-P?. Koni Sport's like you say Sam will be probably the best option.
Do I need to go with the shock-spring set up: an adjustable panhard bar, Mustang GT front strut mount upgrade (M-18183-A), Jounce Bumper Kit (M-5570-A) & The Mustang GT strut tower brace.
I ask since in my Carrera I just changed the shocks and the lowering springs plus a racing sport alignment; And that was it. I'm not familiarized with what I will need for the Mustang rear live axle suspension.
The intention of my next '11 GT Brembo will be of a Daily driver with ocassional DE or autocross.
When I go racing speed Is probably higher than autocross, since is done in on airport, and the curves are very tight, some of them are 45 degree flat curves, track is not very even, since you are able to see and be able to feel the separations of the road.
The regular road is the two triangles (including the one with the dry gator pound).
Last time that I raced, I beated a modified C5 corvette (by .03 secs.) and a '08 Mustang GT (by ,11 secs.). My only mods, where shocks, sport springs, and sport swaybars, Michellin street tires.
9/27/10, 09:16 PM
#74
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Picture of my '02 Porsche carrera at PCA DE at Cameron airport
Here I share with you guys, the picture of my '02 911 Porsche Carrera before doing laps at the Cameron airport with the PCA. Just sold it last week. Now looking for '11 Brembo GT or '12 BOSS.
10/1/10, 05:27 PM
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10/3/10, 12:37 PM
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10/4/10, 10:44 AM
#78
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Just going to depend on the track and tire size you run. There will be times that each gear might be better for someone's normal use. For my autocrossing the 3.31 was the only smart choice or I'd be in between 2nd and 3rd all the time. On a certain road course a 3.31 might allow you to run 3rd or 4th out between corners where 3.55 or 3.73 would force a shift. I think with the grunt this engine makes that a 3.73 for corner carving just isn't that useful.
10/7/10, 07:33 AM
#79
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I'd agree that dampers are the single most important performance upgrade for anyone that wants to go around corners.
I am surprised that you don't use custom dampers (front and rear)?
The FR500C dampers are very good. Front:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9608
Rear:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9606
I have never autocrossed but have been road racing for 20 years.
I try to use a rear gear that will allow the car to use the 1:1 transmission gear (which is fifth in the new MT82 manual) to just almost be at the redline while approaching the braking zone of the fastest straight (usually the longest straight). At Road Atlanta that would be the 3:73. At Road America it would be the 3:55.
Having five usable transmission gears allows a guy more flexibility to use the best possible gear to exit the corner. The faster you exit, the faster you will be between turns. Yes, the rear dampers are very important in allowing the car to get proper grip at corner exit.
The FR500C dampers are very good. Front:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9608
Rear:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9606
I try to use a rear gear that will allow the car to use the 1:1 transmission gear (which is fifth in the new MT82 manual) to just almost be at the redline while approaching the braking zone of the fastest straight (usually the longest straight). At Road Atlanta that would be the 3:73. At Road America it would be the 3:55.
Having five usable transmission gears allows a guy more flexibility to use the best possible gear to exit the corner. The faster you exit, the faster you will be between turns. Yes, the rear dampers are very important in allowing the car to get proper grip at corner exit.
10/7/10, 10:16 AM
#80
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I'd agree that dampers are the single most important performance upgrade for anyone that wants to go around corners.
I am surprised that you don't use custom dampers (front and rear)?
The FR500C dampers are very good. Front:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9608
Rear:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9606
I have never autocrossed but have been road racing for 20 years.
I try to use a rear gear that will allow the car to use the 1:1 transmission gear (which is fifth in the new MT82 manual) to just almost be at the redline while approaching the braking zone of the fastest straight (usually the longest straight). At Road Atlanta that would be the 3:73. At Road America it would be the 3:55.
Having five usable transmission gears allows a guy more flexibility to use the best possible gear to exit the corner. The faster you exit, the faster you will be between turns. Yes, the rear dampers are very important in allowing the car to get proper grip at corner exit.
I am surprised that you don't use custom dampers (front and rear)?
The FR500C dampers are very good. Front:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9608
Rear:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=9606
I have never autocrossed but have been road racing for 20 years.
I try to use a rear gear that will allow the car to use the 1:1 transmission gear (which is fifth in the new MT82 manual) to just almost be at the redline while approaching the braking zone of the fastest straight (usually the longest straight). At Road Atlanta that would be the 3:73. At Road America it would be the 3:55.
Having five usable transmission gears allows a guy more flexibility to use the best possible gear to exit the corner. The faster you exit, the faster you will be between turns. Yes, the rear dampers are very important in allowing the car to get proper grip at corner exit.
Frankly the high end stuff is overkill for most folks here. And when I find that an off the shelf shock suits me well (and Koni Sports usually do) I don't want or need to spend huge dollars when it's not necessary any more than you guys do.
Which dampers is very situation dependent and not everyone needs or wants an adjustable which is why Koni STR.T's are so popular.
As for gearing, one thing to remember is that most r-compound tires and/or tires that folks track on are shorter than stock, effectively lowering the gearing from the start. Also the rev-limiter on a stock GT is a cut, not a nice one that goes bump-bump-bump--so hitting it isn't ideal (and I have plenty on the Hoosiers as they cut about 5 mph off the top of 2nd gear vs. the stock tires).