Ive seen this topic before and i dont agree with much joe says(11gt500) but he did make an interesting point. As consumers we can go to a dealership and dont mind wheeling and dealing for hours to save some money. So whats wrong with dealers trying to make money? I look at it like this- i would never pay over msrp for any car but if theres people out there willing to do it than thats fine!!! Ill wait and pick there second hand car up for a fraxction of what they paid for it!!!

 

What stocks? In doing the same during my wait. I have six weeks to go.

 

Well? Why else would you pitch a fit about ADM's like you did?

LOL...so naturally there isn't a Chevy dealer or Dodge dealer on the entire planet that applies ADM's to their specialist vehicles because you saw them with your VERY OWN BEADY LITTLE EYES in one city in the country being sold without ADM's. Wow.

You just shot a hole through your entire argument: You're exactly right, you can't count lost sales. When you find a way to do so, let the rest of the world know. Meanwhile, special-run cars are going to have ADM's applied to them and people are still going to buy them.
You're just teeing them up for me, aren't you? No one gives a rat's *** about an affordable product if it's worthless or undesired. I really want you to explain to me why the Aztek, which destroyed Pontiac, didn't sell exponentially high when it became extremely affordable. I'll be waiting. If people don't want what you're selling, you're not going to sell it no matter how cheap it is. If people want it badly, as in mustangs and camaros, the cost goes up because of demand. Ford doesn't have to sell that one car to everyone that walks through the door; they just have to sell it to one. If they sell it, have they lost sales? Does Ford take money from them if they have evidence of a certain number of people not buying the car because of ADM's? If the cars are selling, they're not losing sales.


They might, but it doesn't take into account the people who don't care how much the car costs. How do you account for them? There's no such thing as a $70k Shelby or a $62k Shelby; it's a Shelby, and because of the name recognition, performance, exclusivity, etc., people are going to over-pay for it. Not all people, but enough. Ask yourself, would a dealership put an ADM on a car if they thought it would keep it from selling? The buyer of a car like a GT500 is not one that will typically be turned away by an ADM; they have the money to burn. There's a reason you don't see school teachers driving around in them. Those people won't buy the Shelby at any price, because it will never be priced low enough for them. The guy in the corner office will write a check and drive off without thinking twice. All it takes is one per car. Have a nice day.

 

Since I was away from my computer from the date I posted on Saturday before I left work and some more came about on this topic, 94gt, I'll add one thing for you. Since you posted the invoice and MSRP prices on a 2008, I'll add a DORA from our forum member's car. I am posting it, with his permission. To let you know, the profit of a loaded car is not "$7500 from invoice to MSRP, as you "guessed" it would be. On his car, its a $65,420 SVT, TP, Recaro Seat and Electronics Pack car. The spread is just over $4,800!! And before you ask, this is before the holdback, but we aren't talking about that right now. Just invoice. With the production down alot vs 2008, the margins have shrunk. If your curious on the holdback, on this car its just just over $1,900.

And about the whole $100 remark I posted, that is what I would make if I sold a GT500 at iinvoice. What would the dealer make at invoice? the holdback only, and that would be only if it was delivered within 30 days. After 30 days, they pay interest on the car and that holdback helps pay the interest of the car being floorplanned. So the holdback would be less each month. Just wanted to give you some info.

 

I never stated $7,500 from invoice as you stated. I said $7,500 from dealer cost to invoice! Dealer cost and invoice are not the same thing and you know this! Your dealer pays dealer cost for the vehicle, not invoice or invoice with holdback. Your dora is quoting invoice with holdback not dealer cost! I am not stating you or your dealership but, I know a lot of dealers try to con consumers into thinking invoice is what they pay but that is simply a nothing short of a lie. Current price lists don't list dealer cost that I have seen recently as I am assuming dealers don't want consumers to know how much they are actually making on the vehicle so the dealer cost isn't made available to consumer's on the internet. I think the last one I saw with the dealer price was the 2011 mustang price list which you posted and I appreciate you posting many of these price lists over the years. I included it to this post just to verify.

The profits I quoted from the 2008 model were if sold at MSRP compared to dealer cost.

2008 Base GT500 Dealer Cost = $38385
Same car sold at invoice with holdback = $39943 = $1558 profit for dealer
Same car sold at msrp = $43875 = $5500 profit for dealer from cost
Dealer profit over invoice = $3932

2008 Loaded GT500 Dealer cost = $42817
Same car sold at invoice with holdback = $44534 = $1717 profit for dealer
Same car sold at MSRP = $49250 = $6433 profit for dealer from cost
Dealer profit over invoice = $4716

Since the 2013 GT500 price list doesn't include dealer price I don't know exactly what the dealer is making in profit, but invoice with holdback cannot be used to determine your profits.

2013 Base GT500 sold at invoice with holdback = $50253
Same car sold at MSRP = $54995
Dealer profit over invoice = $4742

2013 Loaded Gt500 sold at invoice with holdback = $63183
Same car sold at MSRP = $69,480
Dealer profit over invoice = $6297
Red Candy with all options except heated seat b/c of Recaros

Based on the profit of $6297 invoice with holdback compared to MSRP and invoice with holdback not being what your dealership pays for the vehicle my prediction of a profit of $7500+ on a loaded GT500 is so dead on it is scary. In 2008 for the car with no options $1558 was the difference between dealer price and invoice with holdback. I guarantee that difference has only grown wider due to the increased price of the vehicle.

Adding the 2008 cost to invoice difference of $1558 + $6297 on a 2013 GT500 we are talking $7855 profit and haven't even figured in the dealer price on available options yet and am using a dealer price to invoice difference from 5 years ago. Adding in the cost to invoice difference of a loaded 2008 GT500 we are talking $1717 from 5 year old data we are talking $8014 profit at a minimum for the dealer. You know as well I as I we are easily talking $8,000 profit on a 2013 GT500 fully loaded comparing dealer price to suggested retail probably far closer to $8,500.

 

2011 price list with dealer price included.

 

How many of those STR8 Challengers have an ADM on them? None!
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...506.m270.l1311

How many of these Corvettes have ridiculous markups? Good luck searching.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...506.m270.l1313

Granted a few ZL1's have ADM's, but they are brand new and the 1st ZL1's since 1969, not in their 7th year of production like the current Shelby. http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_...506.m270.l1313

 

So if Ford sell's 4,000 2013 GT500's that is the same as Ford selling 8,000 2013 GT500's? They are selling like you said so I guess it is all the same thing lol! Truth be told it is not and it takes Ford far longer to recoupe the costs of research and development for the new car. This is common sense plain and simple. Ford is in business too make money and that is why the GT500 production didn't stop with 2008 and why the 2015 Shelby has already been confirmed. It has been a good vehicle for Ford and they make money on it. The more Shelby's they sell to dealers the more money they make.

 

I can guarantee you that there are not 10,000 people a year that don't care what a vehicle costs and have unlimited incomes to pay whatever price need be. First off your assumption that rich people even in the 1% don't care what they pay for a product is incredibly naive. Trust me when people have made it into a 6-7 figure income bracket they are **** good with the dollar because they want to maintain their standing in that income bracket. If you think Donald Trump will buy a building and doesn't care what price he pays because he has the money (which he truly does) you are sorely mistaken. People of means are incredibly thrifty with the dollar and that is why Trump is so successful. He doesn't spend a dime more than he has to for any property.

Typically people who are frivilous with income are people that have never had money and then all of a sudden a relative dies, they win an insurance claim, etc. and the money is gone 6 months later. I can afford a $60,000 vehicle and I am single with no children. Will an ADM turn me away, beyond the shadow of a doubt, I wouldn't even waste my breathe talking to a dealer when there are close to 40,000 of these currently on the road along with unlimited production for the 2013 model. Somewhere between 5,000-10,000 people that can actually afford this vehicle. Ford sold around 65,000 mustangs last year so no 20,000 people aren't going to put in orders for the 2013 Shelby. Up to 10,000 really is unlimited production for this price range of vehicle. Lastly I will never agree to consumer price gauging and let the dealer know he can screw over other consumers in the process.

People in the 6 figure income bracket do not have money to burn like you think, unless it is Paris Hilton (that I will give you). ADM's exist when the consumer demand outweigh's the availability of the product. In this economy along with the increased price of this vehicle this is not the case at all. At 8,000-10,000 units if desired there are not as many consumers who can afford one. Spare me any limited availabilty scare tactics, we have seen time and time again with the Mach 1, Bullitt, GT500, Boss, etc, if consumer demand is there Ford will make the product.

 

94gt is starting to sound like a broken record.... you just go on and on and on and on...etc

I come to this thread hoping to see someone else saying something new.. nope, just you repeating the same thing several different ways over and over and over......... like a broken record....

 

its pretty simple: this is america, free market. do ADM's suck, yes! but you have a choice , you pay it or you dont. Do the leg work, find a good dealer willing to be fair even on a car like the GT500 or Boss 302. I know I did, refused to pay one cent over MSRP! some people have disposable income, they have FU money so they can pay whatever and not worry, some of us like to get the most bang for our buck..it is what it is

 

Pricing is part art, part science. Despite the transparency of information, there just will be some things that the buying public will not have full visibility to in terms of cost.

Frankly, Jeff has been very polite and helpful to post as much information as he does. That also goes for Brian, Kevin, and the other Ford dealership employees who do the same.

Unless you know the true cost to do business at a dealership in a given location, it's hard to say "how much profit" is enough. And as others have said, if you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. I consider forum users here to be quite fortunate we have the information we get, as it allows people to make informed purchasing decisions.

For the people who paid way over the sticker price, perhaps the enjoyment of being the first on the block to have one of these cars is worth the expenditure. And yes, while there is hype to build excitement, and capitalizing on that excitement with higher prices seems like the purchaser is getting the short end of the stick, we as consumers have choice.

Delay of gratification = better price on your purchase

 

Hey Tony, thanks for the kind words!! They mean alot. My whole thing, is I just want transparency and to help members on here get fair deals and get the cars they want at a fair price for both the dealer and buyer. I as a salesperson have to make a living. 94gt doesn't think so, when he says GT500s at invoice, as he has said, is a fair price. I guess he loves working for free too!! I guess he is a dealer, because he knows so much more of this business than myself, Brian, etc. I guess I'm just a hack? Guess what 94gt, you win!! I was going to post one more thing, to prove that there isn't more money out there like you think there is. But you won't believe me anway. Your so smart and know everything!!

Let me ask you? What do you do for this site and its members? Anything productive? This thread has gone to crud, with your ranting. My phone is ALWAYS open to calls for advice, questions, etc? I'll help anyone, even if I can't sell them a car myself. As long as they feel like they are getting a good deal, and my advice helps, I feel like I did a good thing. What have you done to help people on here with your posts? Just asking..

 

Great quote .... feel the same way.
It's all about choice. Dealership. Consumer.

 

I did a quick search of ebay, cars.com, and autotrader. Lots for sale, most with ADM, one with a 25k ADM. Seems to me there are plenty for sale. It will be interesting to see how this progresses as a may be searching for one soon.

 

BAC lots of upside potential.

 

I'm not going to pollute this thread any further by quoting 94gt going forward; all I will say is that ford is selling cars as well as they ever have, and in a currently depressed economy. Yet there are ADM's on Shelby's and bosses all over the place. Ford, despite your ever-increasing volume of words, seems to have plenty of customers for their cars independent of any additional monies added or not added to the MSRP. instead of throwing a tantrum my 2.5 year old nephew would be proud of, just buy whatever you want, from whomever you want. It's a free country, and as was said earlier, some people consider the price of having the car first to be worth the expenditure...who are you to tell them otherwise? What right do you have to tell people what is and isn't responsible use of their own money? And by the way, there are literally thousands upon thousands of people who earn six- or seven-figure incomes and are incredibly irresponsible with it and don't have a lick of economic sense in their brain. Your assertions and generalizations are making you look foolish; your diarrhea of the keyboard is making you a nuisance.

By the way 94gt, Jeff really does talk to people about this stuff. I've had several conversations with him and consider him to be one of the most knowledgeable car guys I know. Give him a call, he'll get you sorted out.

 

I have had valid proof for everything I have posted being price lists from Ford many you yourself posted and you know invoice is not what a dealer pays for the vehicle, it is dealer price. None of the numbers I have posted are fictitious and they are all 100% accurate. What I would love to see you post is a 2013 price list which includes dealer price! That would be an easy way to prove me wrong.

What I am most disappointed with on this thread is consumer's actually thinking it is okay to be overcharged for a product. Back in 08-09 consumer's here (https://themustangsource.com/f727/you-know-adms-dead-when-463330/), at teamshelby, svtperformance had had enough of this type of behavior from a dealer, were putting there foot down and putting an end to market adjustments by refusing to pay them and doing a favor to Ford and other consumers in the process. In 2008 no one was paying over MSRP for a 2009 Shelby GT500. Unfortunately some people can be fooled time and time again and I still have that ocean front property in Oklahoma to sell to any takers lol!

 

Originally Posted by JvKintheUSA
I paid $77k for my 13 gt500 convertible with all options. The dealer put $8500 ADM on it...

+1 that about sums it up beautifully.

 

Here ya go 94. I attached the The 2013 GT500 Price list from Ford's dealer website below. Ford does NOT show the 3 columns anymore like they used to with MSRP, invoice with holdback, and invoice without holdback. Its now only MSRP and invoice with holdback. Like I mentioned, the car I posted above, MSRP $65,460 the holdback is $1,960 give or take and the spread from MSRP to invoice is just over $4,800. So for the car my customer is getting, the total is under $7,000 profit at MSRP. I NEVER sell with an ADM. Its why my cars are all gone and I already sold my 1st 2014!

Back in 2008, there was more profit in these cars. They built more and when they build more, the spread can be larger. Things hadn't hit the fan yet (but it was coming). But with everything, margins shrink, not just in the auto industry, but other industries as well. I'm not complaining, but to say the profit in these cars is the same as back in 2008? Its not, trust me. Look at the profit in a Fiesta. There is more profit in that LCD Flat-Panel TV you buy in the store than in this car, lol. Hope this shows I am a straight shooter to you bud.