Track Related Mods
3/24/16, 09:11 AM
#142
Legacy TMS Member
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER
**** Pat, way to go! 2 little kids and you still find time for wrenching on the car.You sir are my hero.
3/26/16, 12:10 PM
#143
Mach 1 Member
Finally bedded my xp8 (r) and dtc60 (f). Noise isn't as bad as I expected but brake dust was on another level compared to hps. April 9 trackday, just hope weather cooperates
3/26/16, 05:26 PM
#144
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Nice! 
Can't wait to hear what your impression is with that brake combo. Very curious if brake bias is going to be ok for you at the track!
Ha, I have XP8s on the rear even on the street, and now my rear wheels are dirty a lot quicker than the fronts with stock Ferrodo pads. Yeah, dust is huge with proper track pads. But it's worth it
Can't wait to hear what your impression is with that brake combo. Very curious if brake bias is going to be ok for you at the track!
Ha, I have XP8s on the rear even on the street, and now my rear wheels are dirty a lot quicker than the fronts with stock Ferrodo pads. Yeah, dust is huge with proper track pads. But it's worth it
3/28/16, 05:02 PM
#145
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Ok, so the car spent the whole day at the shop getting all the suspension parts installed along with SS clutch line and alignment.
I will be picking it up tomorrow morning, but apparently the camber specs are now-1.9 and -2.1
Can't wait to see what it all feels like to drive!
I will be picking it up tomorrow morning, but apparently the camber specs are now-1.9 and -2.1
Can't wait to see what it all feels like to drive!
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5.M0NSTER (3/28/16)
3/29/16, 06:22 PM
#148
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The car handles SO much better now! Even on clover ramps the body motions seems to much better controlled than before! Body roll is almost gone, and front grip mid corner is immense.
I think the balance of the car after a fast transition is shifting to oversteer.
That's probably because of these numbers, and visible negative camber. The rear has a hard time keeping up
Even on clover ramps the body motions seems to much better controlled than before! Body roll is almost gone, and front grip mid corner is immense. I think the balance of the car after a fast transition is shifting to oversteer.
That's probably because of these numbers, and visible negative camber. The rear has a hard time keeping up
3/30/16, 05:18 PM
#149
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Quick question for those of you running with some negative camber.
1) Did you notice your abs kicking in early and slight loss of decel in straight line braking with lots of camber up front? I did a few aggressive stops and noticed early abs, and not being able to modulate my way to high decel like I'm used to. This could be either due to camber, or (also possible) the rapidly deteriorating Pirelli P-Zeros. It's been a while since I did threshold braking with Pirellis.
. I guess I'll have a few more data points once I swap to my S04 in a few weeks.
2) The turn in is less sharp, or to put it differently the car is less eager to turn. My initial steering input has to be a few degrees larger to get the same initial turn in. This may be also because of camber, as the outsides of the tire are not pressing against pavement as hard, or it could also be the fact that I'm running 0 toe. I may need to go a bit more toe out to get my turn in more crisp.
Did you notice the same thing?
These are some more of my initial observations after a few days. I'll wait till after the first track day to make any changes. I was expecting some more tuning would be required to get everything just the way I like.
1) Did you notice your abs kicking in early and slight loss of decel in straight line braking with lots of camber up front? I did a few aggressive stops and noticed early abs, and not being able to modulate my way to high decel like I'm used to. This could be either due to camber, or (also possible) the rapidly deteriorating Pirelli P-Zeros. It's been a while since I did threshold braking with Pirellis.
. I guess I'll have a few more data points once I swap to my S04 in a few weeks. 2) The turn in is less sharp, or to put it differently the car is less eager to turn. My initial steering input has to be a few degrees larger to get the same initial turn in. This may be also because of camber, as the outsides of the tire are not pressing against pavement as hard, or it could also be the fact that I'm running 0 toe. I may need to go a bit more toe out to get my turn in more crisp.
Did you notice the same thing?These are some more of my initial observations after a few days. I'll wait till after the first track day to make any changes. I was expecting some more tuning would be required to get everything just the way I like.
3/30/16, 06:07 PM
#150
Bullitt Member
Having that big swaybar upfront with nothing in the rear is prone to less oversteer (understeer) and less ability in hard straight line braking.
I have an article that I will copy and post it for you. It won't let me post from my iPhone so I'll have to get on the computer.
Having tires that are losing grip also will kick in your ABS and hard braking. Swap out your daily wheels and tires for your track set up and try that on the street
I have an article that I will copy and post it for you. It won't let me post from my iPhone so I'll have to get on the computer.
Having tires that are losing grip also will kick in your ABS and hard braking. Swap out your daily wheels and tires for your track set up and try that on the street
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5.M0NSTER (3/30/16)
3/30/16, 06:40 PM
#152
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Thanks redonblack!
I knew to expect understeer. That should be more prevalent at the lateral grip limits rather than in initial steering. At lateral grip limits ( > 0.7g ) the understeer factor of the front sway is totally compensated by the amount of front grip with so much negative camber. I think I doubled my high lat grip of the front, and now I actually have more oversteer tendencies when increasing steering at high speed. Which makes sense, the front rolls less, but gets more grip as the car rolls, and the outside tire presses more evenly against the ground. The rear is flat going straight, and rolls over more with higher lat, so it can't keep up with the front. Thus oversteer.
But you may have a point with the overall lack of front compliance. Though under 0.3g in first 45 deg of steering wheel input I didn't think this would be the case.
And when it comes to straight line braking I did in on as smooth of a pavement as one can ask for in Michigan. So I'm not sure if the sway plays a role if both front tires grip equally well.
You are correct, I need to swap tires and try again. It might be a few weeks before I have a chance to do that, but I'll update this thread as soon as I can!
Thanks for great input!
I knew to expect understeer. That should be more prevalent at the lateral grip limits rather than in initial steering. At lateral grip limits ( > 0.7g ) the understeer factor of the front sway is totally compensated by the amount of front grip with so much negative camber. I think I doubled my high lat grip of the front, and now I actually have more oversteer tendencies when increasing steering at high speed. Which makes sense, the front rolls less, but gets more grip as the car rolls, and the outside tire presses more evenly against the ground. The rear is flat going straight, and rolls over more with higher lat, so it can't keep up with the front. Thus oversteer.
But you may have a point with the overall lack of front compliance. Though under 0.3g in first 45 deg of steering wheel input I didn't think this would be the case.
And when it comes to straight line braking I did in on as smooth of a pavement as one can ask for in Michigan. So I'm not sure if the sway plays a role if both front tires grip equally well.
You are correct, I need to swap tires and try again. It might be a few weeks before I have a chance to do that, but I'll update this thread as soon as I can!
Thanks for great input!
Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 3/30/16 at 06:41 PM.
3/30/16, 06:51 PM
#153
Bullitt Member
This is really the only mustang forum where more than one person tracks their cars. Road races, that is.
We are all in the same boat as far as learning the limits of our cars as we mark them. Some of us are more advanced than others but none of us know everything. Anything that I learned I put out there for others to learn from as well.
I research the Internet, manufacturers, engineers, and suspension experts as well as talking to others at the track. With this knowledge I am able to make educated decisions on what and what not to do.
I love modding my car and then problem-solving to fine-tune.
You are definitely on the right track! Let us know what you find out
We are all in the same boat as far as learning the limits of our cars as we mark them. Some of us are more advanced than others but none of us know everything. Anything that I learned I put out there for others to learn from as well.
I research the Internet, manufacturers, engineers, and suspension experts as well as talking to others at the track. With this knowledge I am able to make educated decisions on what and what not to do.
I love modding my car and then problem-solving to fine-tune.
You are definitely on the right track! Let us know what you find out
3/30/16, 08:54 PM
#154
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Will do sir! Thanks for the input!
In my daily work vehicle dynamics is a must. I work for a tier 1 auto supplier for chassis brake modulation as an engineer. We have over 40 value added functions we do with brakes. Electronic stability control, trailer sway mitigation, hill hold, adaptive cruise control, advanced park assist, lane centering, autonomous emergency braking, electronic brake force distribution just to name a few. I have a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and physics of semi rigid body motion than most, but I am by no means an expert.
I am learning a lot on this and other forums as well. Some of my job required training was in limit handling and performance driving. That's how I got into the hobby, but that doesn't make a me a professional driver either. I have a good basic understanding of why a vehicle acts a certain way, and how to use it to achieve desired results.
And I also would like to share my knowledge and experiences with others.
But to be honest, I am a bit taken by surprise by some of the behaviors of my own vehicle after doing my suspension upgrades. Some of the things I expected to happen happened, but other things I wasn't expecting happened as well. I was afraid of loosing sharpness of turn in, as you'll find in this thread (last statement in post #21):
https://themustangsource.com/forums/...538351/index2/
but the loss of straight line flat surface decel I was not expecting.
So I'm still in the process of rationalizing the physical behavior of the car based on what I know about physics of a semi rigid body.
And I am genuinely thankful for your input about loss of compliance in straight line braking. This is one aspect that escaped my consideration so far!
And once I get to the bottom of it I will certainly share my revelations! There is truth in engineering. That's a fact.
In my daily work vehicle dynamics is a must. I work for a tier 1 auto supplier for chassis brake modulation as an engineer. We have over 40 value added functions we do with brakes. Electronic stability control, trailer sway mitigation, hill hold, adaptive cruise control, advanced park assist, lane centering, autonomous emergency braking, electronic brake force distribution just to name a few. I have a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and physics of semi rigid body motion than most, but I am by no means an expert.
I am learning a lot on this and other forums as well. Some of my job required training was in limit handling and performance driving. That's how I got into the hobby, but that doesn't make a me a professional driver either. I have a good basic understanding of why a vehicle acts a certain way, and how to use it to achieve desired results.
And I also would like to share my knowledge and experiences with others.
But to be honest, I am a bit taken by surprise by some of the behaviors of my own vehicle after doing my suspension upgrades. Some of the things I expected to happen happened, but other things I wasn't expecting happened as well. I was afraid of loosing sharpness of turn in, as you'll find in this thread (last statement in post #21):
https://themustangsource.com/forums/...538351/index2/
but the loss of straight line flat surface decel I was not expecting.
So I'm still in the process of rationalizing the physical behavior of the car based on what I know about physics of a semi rigid body.
And I am genuinely thankful for your input about loss of compliance in straight line braking. This is one aspect that escaped my consideration so far!
And once I get to the bottom of it I will certainly share my revelations! There is truth in engineering. That's a fact.
Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 3/30/16 at 08:55 PM.
3/31/16, 11:17 AM
#155
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Hmmm . . . I wonder if my fairly stiff rear sway bar (GT500) is contributing to that snap oversteer that I do sometimes get on corner exit; or is it just my foot / hand / eye coordination (or lack thereof) . . . the world will probably never know.
3/31/16, 05:21 PM
#157
Shelby GT350 Member
This is the only forum besides trackmustangsonline (formerly bossmustangsonline) where people track cars... If you haven't been over there, head over. Great info
Anyways, I'll digest the other input more later when I'm not on a phone, but I don't recall the turn in change you described. I did add a front sway to further improve turn in, and I had to play with settings to get the right stiffness. But the car is neutral or slightly prone to oversteer even with the front sway being lowered.
Get your tires warm then try your braking. I bet they just aren't up to temp and therefore lacking grip
Anyways, I'll digest the other input more later when I'm not on a phone, but I don't recall the turn in change you described. I did add a front sway to further improve turn in, and I had to play with settings to get the right stiffness. But the car is neutral or slightly prone to oversteer even with the front sway being lowered.
Get your tires warm then try your braking. I bet they just aren't up to temp and therefore lacking grip
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SGwick (4/1/16)
4/1/16, 09:32 AM
#158
Mach 1 Member
4/2/16, 07:25 AM
#160
Mach 1 Member