Boss 302 vs Camaro ZL-1 in Motor Trend
1/23/12, 06:18 PM
#161
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From the Jalopnik piece: "Alex TK made it clear that they'd developed the launch control in Mode 5 to "not embarrass" the owners of a ZL1, implying that Chevrolet is clear-eyed about the way most ZL1s will be used: occasional, Sunday drag strip runs to impress the kids. Two or three times a year, the person who can afford a $55,000 Camaro will take it to the drag strip and show it off a little—and Chevy's made sure to add a concierge of speed that makes sure Messr. Weekend Racer won't make a fool of himself."
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
1/23/12, 06:58 PM
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From the Jalopnik piece: "Alex TK made it clear that they'd developed the launch control in Mode 5 to "not embarrass" the owners of a ZL1, implying that Chevrolet is clear-eyed about the way most ZL1s will be used: occasional, Sunday drag strip runs to impress the kids. Two or three times a year, the person who can afford a $55,000 Camaro will take it to the drag strip and show it off a little—and Chevy's made sure to add a concierge of speed that makes sure Messr. Weekend Racer won't make a fool of himself."
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
1/23/12, 07:53 PM
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You don't think that owning and tracking a Boss 302 just might make you a wee bit too biased towards Ford, and not GM? Try to see it from the GM PR guy's perspective. He doesn't want someone who knows the competition, he wants someone to lap up his b.s. like a dog laps water.
1/23/12, 08:33 PM
#165
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UAW? Please they haven't had a raise in 10 years, only bonuses or profit sharing, the last 2 contracts they took pay cuts, no Xmas bonus less holidays off, no cost of living, there wages are less today then 10 yes ago., 2 tier pay scale, new hires $ 14 a hr.
Less then 10% of the cars cost is labor nowadays.
Less then 10% of the cars cost is labor nowadays.
Then you have fuel costs, and you know what that does, and so there you go an extra couple grand get pilled on really quick.
Sorry to bring this up, I know this is about MT and the ZL1, but I had get this off my chest, Thanks.
1/24/12, 02:38 AM
#166
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Shane,
You don't think that owning and tracking a Boss 302 just might make you a wee bit too biased towards Ford, and not GM? Try to see it from the GM PR guy's perspective. He doesn't want someone who knows the competition, he wants someone to lap up his b.s. like a dog laps water.
You don't think that owning and tracking a Boss 302 just might make you a wee bit too biased towards Ford, and not GM? Try to see it from the GM PR guy's perspective. He doesn't want someone who knows the competition, he wants someone to lap up his b.s. like a dog laps water.
or a 
here is what i do know though. ive been asking my gm contact since the ZL1 was unveiled to be sure and keep me on the list for a review car. if/when they come through one of my texas boss pals needs to bring a stock Boss out to ECR and I'll find out for myself which is fastest on that track with me behind the wheel in a real world track session!
1/24/12, 09:11 AM
#167
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From the Jalopnik piece: "Alex TK made it clear that they'd developed the launch control in Mode 5 to "not embarrass" the owners of a ZL1, implying that Chevrolet is clear-eyed about the way most ZL1s will be used: occasional, Sunday drag strip runs to impress the kids. Two or three times a year, the person who can afford a $55,000 Camaro will take it to the drag strip and show it off a little—and Chevy's made sure to add a concierge of speed that makes sure Messr. Weekend Racer won't make a fool of himself."
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
This probably applies to most muscle car sales (of all brands) anyway. I like the way they write the reviews - from a viewpoint of the average Joe/Jane.
Great ammo for the next time a Camaro guy says Mustangs are for women.
i'm not biased against anyone, i think the zl1 is cool and cant wait to see one on the track. this particular mt review just doesn't sit right with me. thinking a car hung the moon one week and then the next suddenly its not controllable to the point that a pro cant go over curbs on the track seems off to me as does not even setting the suspension per mfg recommendations in a review that the mag had to know would be a sparking point to the enthusiast crowd.
Last edited by bob; 1/24/12 at 09:16 AM.
1/24/12, 06:01 PM
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I read the Jalop piece and thought that they really have this car buckled down for anything but drag racing the electronic nanny is going to intervene big time.
Great ammo for the next time a Camaro guy says Mustangs are for women.
Gotta sell those magazines and get those advert dollars so you can bring value to the shareholder! Media today is less about reporting the facts and more about creating sensationalism. Like someone said here or elsewhere, give it a year after all the hype has died down and you'll get more honest comments.
Great ammo for the next time a Camaro guy says Mustangs are for women.
Gotta sell those magazines and get those advert dollars so you can bring value to the shareholder! Media today is less about reporting the facts and more about creating sensationalism. Like someone said here or elsewhere, give it a year after all the hype has died down and you'll get more honest comments.
1/27/12, 07:08 AM
#169
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Motor trend road test Zl1 vs Boss LS
Don't know if this has been posted just got my March copy of MT yesterday, very interesting article.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...2_laguna_seca/
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...2_laguna_seca/
1/27/12, 01:40 PM
#170
1/28/12, 05:27 AM
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"Chevrolet was not about to let Ford run away with this new market. Within two years of the Mustang's launch, GM had its own ponycar headed to showrooms and eventually racetracks. The Camaro was bigger and heavier and had more powerfulengine options than the lithe Ford. The trend of bigger and faster would continue until the gas crunch of the '70s, and, even then, the quest for power continued as expectations for comfort and convenience were rising."
Translates to being able to see whatthe other guy did, waited 2-1/2 years and produced something a little bit better.
"
Translates to being able to see whatthe other guy did, waited 2-1/2 years and produced something a little bit better.
"
Jump forward to more recent events. The Mustang has remained in continuous production, while the Camaro took a little time off to regroup in the early part of this century. The return of GM's ponycar for 2010 saw the gap widen even more with Chevy's big engine coming in at 6.2 liters while the Mustang GT's displaced a smallish 4.6 liters. The Camaro was also bigger and heavier than the Mustang by a considerable margin. It was a little more comfortable, and hidden beneath the retro-nostalgic body panels was an independent rear suspension."
Translates to GM hurting for money because Camaro sales sucked and still needting a bigger motor to compete. More comfortable?....opinion.......can't used be a widebrushed statement.
"For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a familysedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time."
Translates to Camaro frankensteining parts from its other cars to make another....although more sophisticated, much more exspensive.
Translates to GM hurting for money because Camaro sales sucked and still needting a bigger motor to compete. More comfortable?....opinion.......can't used be a widebrushed statement.
"For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a familysedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time."
Translates to Camaro frankensteining parts from its other cars to make another....although more sophisticated, much more exspensive.
"The Boss requires a trip to the pit lane to adjust its damping rates. The process isn't terribly involved, but the rears do require removing trim pieces for access. Ford recommended using a setting of 5 or full stiff, both front and rear. On the smooth sections of the track, the stiff damping worked fairly well for the Boss, delivering slight understeer in braking and neutral throttle. When picking up the throttle, the live-axle was surprisingly planted, but still allowed a bit of right-foot steering."
Translates to yes needing to pull over...........but I have adjust mine by just pulling back on the panel.......no removal........small price to pay rather than a super expensive system that if fails what do you do?........i can change a shock in minutes.
Translates to yes needing to pull over...........but I have adjust mine by just pulling back on the panel.......no removal........small price to pay rather than a super expensive system that if fails what do you do?........i can change a shock in minutes.
"The ZL1 doesn't transition like the Boss; it seems to have a much higher moment of inertia. Ham-footing the throttle in the Camaro, which provides nearly 140 horsepower more than the Mustang, will result in more sideways action but the horseplay is still very controllable. It is also worth noting that flooring the Camaro means dealing with almost 140 horsepower more than the Mustang.....
We expected the biggest gap in the two cars' lap times to come from the power discrepancy. The Boss is making do with a mere 444 horsepower and 380 lb-ft from its naturally aspirated 5.0-liter V-8. The ZL1 humiliates the 302's spec sheet by cranking out 580 horsepower and a staggering 556 lb-ft of torque from all 6.2 liters of supercharged V-8. The Camaro has to move 7.0 lb/hp while the Mustang is dealing with 8.2. All these things should add up to the Camaro showing the Mustang its taillights with ease and great frequency. In quarter-mile testing, the Camaro ran through in 12.1 seconds at 117 mph, rather impressive, but the Mustang was only three-tenths of a second and 3 mph behind. Sure, the Camaro has 400 pounds on the Mustang, but we still expected more of a gap."
Translation?.........We barely beat the Boss that has less horsepower (how many times does it need to be mentioned?).......would that be a bragging point?
"The Camaro clearly came out on top of this fight. Although the Boss 302 is probably the best Mustang ever built, it just feels and performs like it's a generation behind. Randy summed it up: "The Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca was my favorite American musclecar -- until today." It isn't the lack of power; it isn't the lack of amenities. It's simply a lack of technology. The Camaro is the benchmark for a new class of vehicle. Call it the Power Pony, the Warhorse -- the name isn't important. What is important is ZL1's on-demand attitude. Supercar levels of performance, with the daily driving comfort of a GT, wrapped in a nostalgic package. I bet Lee saw this one coming, too"
Translation?.........We barely beat the Boss that has less horsepower (how many times does it need to be mentioned?).......would that be a bragging point?
"The Camaro clearly came out on top of this fight. Although the Boss 302 is probably the best Mustang ever built, it just feels and performs like it's a generation behind. Randy summed it up: "The Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca was my favorite American musclecar -- until today." It isn't the lack of power; it isn't the lack of amenities. It's simply a lack of technology. The Camaro is the benchmark for a new class of vehicle. Call it the Power Pony, the Warhorse -- the name isn't important. What is important is ZL1's on-demand attitude. Supercar levels of performance, with the daily driving comfort of a GT, wrapped in a nostalgic package. I bet Lee saw this one coming, too"
Translates to : Camaro disected a car built a year ago and one upped it barely with a car that costs more.
GOD GM SUX and so does motor trend. kiss A$$es
GOD GM SUX and so does motor trend. kiss A$$es
1/28/12, 10:56 AM
#173
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"Randy summed it up: "The Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca was my favorite American musclecar -- until today." It isn't the lack of power; it isn't the lack of amenities. It's simply a lack of technology."
It might be lacking in tech, but that's what I love about the car.
It might be lacking in tech, but that's what I love about the car.
1/28/12, 11:02 AM
#174
Legacy TMS Member
1/29/12, 08:14 AM
#176
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The ZL1 is set to beat the Boss in a couple of ways here in Canada at least. Canadian pricing is decently in line with US whereas I paid quite the premium on my Boss (which as it turned out, excluded Trackday and the Owners package, and yes I still think Ford of Canada blows, don't even get me started on the visual state of the plant in Oakville and the brand representation that undermines... Seriously Ford, hire me to head Ford Canada and if I don't show a minimum of18% increase in sales within 18 months, don't pay me). Rant over, and back to point two;
"in deeming its new car "track capable," Chevrolet is extending the Camaro's warranty to track day bandits. Yes, even if something breaks -- halfshafts, engine, transmission, etc. -- while you beating the Holy-mother-of-you-know-what out of your ZL1 on a track, Chevrolet will cover it under the normal warranty."
Again, still a Ford and Mustang fan, but I an concerned about how aggressively GM is trying to come back from the dead. And north of the border it's going to pay big dividends.
"in deeming its new car "track capable," Chevrolet is extending the Camaro's warranty to track day bandits. Yes, even if something breaks -- halfshafts, engine, transmission, etc. -- while you beating the Holy-mother-of-you-know-what out of your ZL1 on a track, Chevrolet will cover it under the normal warranty."
Again, still a Ford and Mustang fan, but I an concerned about how aggressively GM is trying to come back from the dead. And north of the border it's going to pay big dividends.
1/29/12, 09:21 AM
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The ZL1 is set to beat the Boss in a couple of ways here in Canada at least. Canadian pricing is decently in line with US whereas I paid quite the premium on my Boss (which as it turned out, excluded Trackday and the Owners package, and yes I still think Ford of Canada blows, don't even get me started on the visual state of the plant in Oakville and the brand representation that undermines... Seriously Ford, hire me to head Ford Canada and if I don't show a minimum of18% increase in sales within 18 months, don't pay me). Rant over, and back to point two;
"in deeming its new car "track capable," Chevrolet is extending the Camaro's warranty to track day bandits. Yes, even if something breaks -- halfshafts, engine, transmission, etc. -- while you beating the Holy-mother-of-you-know-what out of your ZL1 on a track, Chevrolet will cover it under the normal warranty."
Again, still a Ford and Mustang fan, but I an concerned about how aggressively GM is trying to come back from the dead. And north of the border it's going to pay big dividends.
"in deeming its new car "track capable," Chevrolet is extending the Camaro's warranty to track day bandits. Yes, even if something breaks -- halfshafts, engine, transmission, etc. -- while you beating the Holy-mother-of-you-know-what out of your ZL1 on a track, Chevrolet will cover it under the normal warranty."
Again, still a Ford and Mustang fan, but I an concerned about how aggressively GM is trying to come back from the dead. And north of the border it's going to pay big dividends.
GM
1/29/12, 12:47 PM
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I was a diehard GM guy, a real “FANBOY!”.........Grand Prix SJ (455 CID), Nova SS, Buick GS 455 / Stage 1, Buick Grand National, T/A Firebird, then GM announces Camaro and Firebird are taking a little dirt nap………..then I saw the '03 Mach 1.
After going with Ford I did stop in at the Chevy dealer when the new Camaro was released, three different dealers treated me like an a$$hole for being in a Ford............and after sitting in a Camaro with a helmet I couldn't get comfortable with the low roof!
The attitude just didn’t stop with the sales people it carried on up to a couple of the GM’s at the dealerships!
So this sums it up for me
From the Car and Driver piece...........
GM I don’t care what you do with the next generation Camaro I won't even stop in at a dealership!
After going with Ford I did stop in at the Chevy dealer when the new Camaro was released, three different dealers treated me like an a$$hole for being in a Ford............and after sitting in a Camaro with a helmet I couldn't get comfortable with the low roof!
The attitude just didn’t stop with the sales people it carried on up to a couple of the GM’s at the dealerships!
So this sums it up for me
From the Car and Driver piece...........
Sitting in the ZL1 and driving on the street reveal that, for as much as it feels like a totally different car, it is still a Camaro. This means horrible visibility (especially to the rear), meager headroom, and an overall sense of bigness that apparently no amount of power or chassis tuning will make go away.
GM I don’t care what you do with the next generation Camaro I won't even stop in at a dealership!
Last edited by GT_350; 1/29/12 at 12:48 PM.
1/29/12, 02:03 PM
#179
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This is yet another dubious comparisons done by Motor Trend. They are the "Walmart" of automobile journalism. Even with the HP advantage, I don't think this Camaro can beat a Boss around a roadcourse. The recent Car & Driver test, and almost all other tests I have read confirm that the Boss is the better handling car. This is again the result of the old IRS argument. And anyway when you drive the Camaro you still are forced to look at what might be the ugliest interior EVER
1/30/12, 10:59 AM
#180
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i'm not biased against anyone, i think the zl1 is cool and cant wait to see one on the track. this particular mt review just doesn't sit right with me. thinking a car hung the moon one week and then the next suddenly its not controllable to the point that a pro cant go over curbs on the track seems off to me as does not even setting the suspension per mfg recommendations in a review that the mag had to know would be a sparking point to the enthusiast crowd. i think had the results been different and the camaro boys found out that Mt didn't use the sport setting on the ZL1 suspension they would feel the same way. FWIW i meant that last comment a bit tounge in cheek, i guess it needed a or a
here is what i do know though. ive been asking my gm contact since the ZL1 was unveiled to be sure and keep me on the list for a review car. if/when they come through one of my texas boss pals needs to bring a stock Boss out to ECR and I'll find out for myself which is fastest on that track with me behind the wheel in a real world track session!
or a here is what i do know though. ive been asking my gm contact since the ZL1 was unveiled to be sure and keep me on the list for a review car. if/when they come through one of my texas boss pals needs to bring a stock Boss out to ECR and I'll find out for myself which is fastest on that track with me behind the wheel in a real world track session!
Think about it.. the competition isn`t gonna bench mark and come out with a slower less capable model. If the ZL1 is all that then so be it, your only on top for limited time. I`m sure the 13 Gt500 will wipe the floor with the boss on the track and they would say the boss feels dated against it.