Chrysler has, GM is still way upside down to the taxpayer.

As to Ford, they leveraged their assets for the purpose of reorganizing for future profits by using capitalist methods. And they did this in 2006 - 2 yrs+ BEFORE the Great Implosion!! Their reorganization plan had NOTHING to do with the Great Implosion. In 2006 even the Fed thought everything was purring along just fine.

You make it sound like Ford used 'bridge' loans to save them during the recession when that is completely off base. Lumping them in with GM & Chrysler is a lie certain politicians want to foster. Can't believe how uninformed people are.

 

Doh. Too late!!

 

I'm interested to know the apportionment of the 2 seconds due to higher tech suspension and what is due to increased HP on the Camaro. 20/80 or 80/20 ?

Quick analysis of the Time Advantage Graph suggests that the 136 additional HP is good for 1.2 Secs. The suspension is thus good for the remaining 1.3 Seconds. Looks like the ZL1 suspension AND the brakes work a bit better than the Boss. GM upped the ante. Muscle car wars - dejavu.

 

lol, they don't allow ride alongs on normal HPDE days i am very curious how differently they feel on track though.

 

Um...didn't I read an earlier post that asked not to side-track this thread about the loan and politics? Am I the only one who obliged? Take it outside, or PM me, will ya?!

 

I was thinking more in the terms of letting you take it out yourself for a few.

 

Well now that gm build a great car it just gives ford the extra push so they can build a kick *** gt500.

 

The LS1 had faster cornering speeds even though it weighed more. Was it tires, the IRS, or the shocks? Since Ferrari has licensed the same type shocks, I have to believe they actually work. This gives an advantage on a bumpy track, but maybe not on a smooth course? Just like more power gives more advantage on a long track, where less weight gives more advantage on a tight course. Ford will have to work very hard to get the new GT500 to put the power down and beat this around the track. Or will they? I imagine they are now resting easy or going back to the track to get some last tweaks in.

For those that say 2 seconds is an eternity on a road course I disagree. If your racing, sure. But most driver days run sessions that are 20 or 30 minutes long, with a cool down and heat up lap. So your looking at 25 minutes of running, say 2 minutes a lap. That's only 12 laps. So you could make up 2 seconds times 12 laps you've only gained a 1/4 a lap. Which honestly, one lap spent behind a guy that doesn't wave you by and you've lost more then a 1/4 of lap. Equal drivers and the fresher rubber wins.

 

You forgot the heat soak after four laps.

 

Fair enough but I'm still curious if advertising dollars in fluenced the article.

 

As an ad agency owner I can tell you the magazines are not paid off. However big ad buys and the threat of a campaign pull certainly weigh on the minds of the editors. Magazines continue to lose readers to the Internet so they need to balance good writing, valid reviews and income carefully.

 

When I see one on track with me then I will know which is the better car. I am not nearly the greatest driver by a long ways and my car has run down and gotten wave bys from Z06's, GT3's and a GT2. On the other hand I have given way to spec Miata and a sick super boosted GTi. Racing is all man AND machine. I realize this is off topic for what is the better car but I have faith in our Boss cars. Lets see what the ZL1 does on the Lightning Lap comparo or at Laguna Seca.
Steve


"Edit warning" I am a Super Ford fanboy!!!!!!

 

I'm with Steve. I just "hope" to see a Camaro on the track. They don't show up there much. I have run with a s/c'd 2010 Camaro SS and it was no contest. Sure the ZL1 has a better suspension, but I'm anxious for them to show me how much faster it is than the Boss

 

As far as the pony car wars go, Gm has always been catching up for 48 years. One year later after Ford, GM has always needed to come out with larger cubic inches and a "better" (?) idea than Ford to compete. Fast forward, finaly after the Camaro/Firebird sales (with even with more HP and better handling) couldnt keep up with Mustang sales, production was ended. Mustang kept forging on, eventually elvolving to a modular engine smaller than the reliable 60's 289 the 4.6 liter (280.709 cubic inches), Mustang kept the pony car alive and kicking and still making the competition stuggle to keep up. Now we have the new Coyote, 302 cu in of pleasure, which now is comapred to the "new Camaro" and its 6.2 litre (378 cu in) motor. Again GM NEEDED more motor, higher tech suspension etc to "catch up" to Ford, and this time barely getting ahead. The camaro boys will have something to thump their chests over for a few months, maybe, because utill the new Shelby gets tested against it we Ford guys are speculating. Now we all know that adding this, lowering that, changing shocks, super charging, sticky tires, anything can be made better ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR BASELINE GOAL IS, this baseline Ford has set since 1964 1/2 for GM. The comparrison for this article should be sticker car against sticker car. The Boss 302 is slated for two years, Ford isnt going to keep screwing with something special, thats our job, so I dont think we will see a Boss modified by Ford for production to compete against the ZL1. How would you feel if you were Gm to have had to do what they are doing just to beat out 302 cu in? All this will probably come to somewhat of an end just like it did in the 70's, no matter, GM is still one year behind Mustang in performance. As far as looks go thats a prefrence thing, what looks good to one guy looks bad to another so that shouldnt be debated.

 

I don't doubt the ZL1 is the better car at all (it better **** well be), but some of you guys need to seriously appreciate a simple fact here, by positioning the ZL1 against the Boss prior to the GT500 debut Motor Trend sells a ton of magazines and get clicks for the very reason a thread like this illustrates.

I'm not suggesting this is right or wrong, MT is playing the narrative that everyone wants, Ford vs Chevy, and people respond accordingly. While it could be viewed as an unfair comparison, it doesn't matter as it keeps people engaged and the story evolving.

Just trying to provide some perspective for those that are legitimately upset over these cars being compared and/or the results.

 

Good points.
GM had to add a lot more HP, TQ, displacement and technology to marginally beat beat the little old 302.

 

Good points as well. Magazines like to stir up controversy as it attracts readers.

 

Good point, we all fell for it

And while I'm an advocate to the fact that 2 seconds is an eternity. It really doesn't add up to all that much more considerig te extra power, rubber, and suspension

 

Yes, the Boss has been throwing codes for the engine over heating and also the brakes do not seem to be up to the task. The main reason I'm waiting for a '13. I really fail to see how Ford screwed this up, but there you have it. Not sure about the LS1.

 

I've never thrown a code for overheating and I've pushed my car as much as anyone on the track. I've also NEVER had an issue with the brakes. (btw, the '13 brakes are no different than the '12). Now they have made accommodations to the grille and hood to hopefully allow it to run cooler, but we've yet to see them tested by an owner on track. There is a simple foolproof solution to cooling the '12s though, and that's removing the grille on track days. Other options (I've chosen) are the 302S grille, hood and radiator for people that are really pushing the car. The 302S hood provides significant downforce (its primary purpose) so additional cooling is a side benefit. I haven't seen any discussion of greater downforce with a '13 hood, although it's possible albeit likely less significant since it's not as open.