leaks
10/12/10, 08:45 PM
#161
MOTM Committee Member
10/12/10, 09:19 PM
#162
Don't see the logistics in having variations of the body styles other than what we have now. Coupe and convertible, with glass roof sticking around.
I'm interested to see what becomes of AAI with the Mazda6 and Mustang sharing the line. Right now I could see AAI gaining a Lincoln coupe on a new platform that underpins the Mustang and MKC (call it that for simplicity) and, if the 6 goes back to a global platform, instead of a stretched CD3-2 platform, move it back overseas with the reduction of Ford control.
If the current car keeps the proportions, loses a little weight, and keeps the power to weight ratio the same or higher with the new platform/style, we're in good shape.
Sounds like based on TN's research, that early 2012 should be the time to start peering around for rough mules to hit the road, followed in the next year by the usual camo-clad prototype build cars.
I'm interested to see what becomes of AAI with the Mazda6 and Mustang sharing the line. Right now I could see AAI gaining a Lincoln coupe on a new platform that underpins the Mustang and MKC (call it that for simplicity) and, if the 6 goes back to a global platform, instead of a stretched CD3-2 platform, move it back overseas with the reduction of Ford control.
If the current car keeps the proportions, loses a little weight, and keeps the power to weight ratio the same or higher with the new platform/style, we're in good shape.
Sounds like based on TN's research, that early 2012 should be the time to start peering around for rough mules to hit the road, followed in the next year by the usual camo-clad prototype build cars.
10/13/10, 12:45 PM
#165
GTR Member
10/13/10, 02:28 PM
#167
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Join Date: February 1, 2004
Posts: 3,751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Design needs to be locked in sooner than 2 years from now... once the final design is choosen...then the long process begins with software changes,engineering,dyes,fittings,chassis,interior ,prototyping,testing,assembly line changes,retesting...this takes time...You'll probably see spy pics of a prototype this coming Summer. Remember the 2012 will be on the streets by then...
10/13/10, 03:14 PM
#172
I Have No Life
...in general. I think there's a lot of speculation here.
Its way too early to narrow things down....let alone say 'it'll have this'
Stuff can change SO much, even if it is true, I wouldn't put faith in it until way closer to when certain things have to be locked in.
I'd take most things on here with a grain.
Its way too early to narrow things down....let alone say 'it'll have this'
Stuff can change SO much, even if it is true, I wouldn't put faith in it until way closer to when certain things have to be locked in.
I'd take most things on here with a grain.
10/13/10, 03:36 PM
#173
BOSS Member
Join Date: May 21, 2010
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they're shooting for early 2013 production of the 2014, you're be right on the mules. They'll have the approved design in-hand, long-lead assemblies are on order, testing begins early next year on platform and drive-train mules, refinements and major changes are frozen by the end of the year, and early prototypes start rolling in 2012.
10/13/10, 07:13 PM
#174
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Join Date: February 1, 2004
Posts: 3,751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...in general. I think there's a lot of speculation here.
Its way too early to narrow things down....let alone say 'it'll have this'
Stuff can change SO much, even if it is true, I wouldn't put faith in it until way closer to when certain things have to be locked in.
I'd take most things on here with a grain.
Its way too early to narrow things down....let alone say 'it'll have this'
Stuff can change SO much, even if it is true, I wouldn't put faith in it until way closer to when certain things have to be locked in.
I'd take most things on here with a grain.
Don't leave home without it.
10/14/10, 01:21 AM
#175
I agree, take things with a grain of salt this early on.
I really like everything in this description, and I want to make a few sketches based on the details here. 15% more hp in a 15% lighter/smaller package gives us roughly a 475hp beast in the SN95 weight class. That'd be potent for sure.
BUT... do you guys really think the next Mustang will be all that much smaller considering the Mustang and Australian Falcon could be sharing the same platform in the future? I can't see them putting a 4 door sedan on a platform that's going to give the Mustang just a "novelty" backseat. Just my $.02.
Ford has finally learned from it's mistakes. The new design will be more modern, but will retain the classic stance that was lost in the mid 70s. The Mustang will continue to evolve in a similar manner to the Corvette; as opposed to the polarizing stylistic changes that are so commonly associated with most American cars.
just a rumor...
Expect the next Mustang to be smaller, while retaining the same proportions as the current model, albeit wider. The backseat will be nothing more than a novelty (possibly optional) due to the slightly shorter wheelbase. Expect even more voluptuous fender flares with even harder crowns on key character lines. The front fascia will sport a soft point topside with headlights that are almost invisibly blended with the grill kind of like a modern hodge-podge between a '69 gt500 and the current model, but with far better flow. The actual lamps will be flanked with functional brake ducting vents which almost seem as if they were licensed from cervinis... err the 1970 Mustang. No trapezoids, instead non-symmetrical pentagons bottomside. Rear hips are far more defined laterally. Side scoops return, however in completely different configuration than current. Hatch is also back, but don't worry, it's way more 60s than 80s... still though it has it's own modern spin to it. Rear headlights are still angled, but slightly recessed to appease both lovers and critics of the current design. Full under-tray is standard, with a (REAL) rear diffuser on the GT. Base engine is now EB I-4. 5.0 returns with 15% more power, and variable displacement tech. GT500 is nixed... err replaced. Practically all accessories are driven electrically...
Weight savings expected to be as much as 15%, no less than 10%...
just a rumor...
Expect the next Mustang to be smaller, while retaining the same proportions as the current model, albeit wider. The backseat will be nothing more than a novelty (possibly optional) due to the slightly shorter wheelbase. Expect even more voluptuous fender flares with even harder crowns on key character lines. The front fascia will sport a soft point topside with headlights that are almost invisibly blended with the grill kind of like a modern hodge-podge between a '69 gt500 and the current model, but with far better flow. The actual lamps will be flanked with functional brake ducting vents which almost seem as if they were licensed from cervinis... err the 1970 Mustang. No trapezoids, instead non-symmetrical pentagons bottomside. Rear hips are far more defined laterally. Side scoops return, however in completely different configuration than current. Hatch is also back, but don't worry, it's way more 60s than 80s... still though it has it's own modern spin to it. Rear headlights are still angled, but slightly recessed to appease both lovers and critics of the current design. Full under-tray is standard, with a (REAL) rear diffuser on the GT. Base engine is now EB I-4. 5.0 returns with 15% more power, and variable displacement tech. GT500 is nixed... err replaced. Practically all accessories are driven electrically...
Weight savings expected to be as much as 15%, no less than 10%...
BUT... do you guys really think the next Mustang will be all that much smaller considering the Mustang and Australian Falcon could be sharing the same platform in the future? I can't see them putting a 4 door sedan on a platform that's going to give the Mustang just a "novelty" backseat. Just my $.02.
Last edited by black_bullitt; 10/14/10 at 01:22 AM.
10/14/10, 10:05 AM
#178
MOTM Committee Member
depends on what the 2014 looks like. The color itself does look kind of dated, but I think it could would. It would give the car a sort "high class" appearance
10/14/10, 01:25 PM
#179
Bullitt Member
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What did the Contemporary styling get them? Actually the 1999-2004 Mustang had higher sales numbers for the first 2 years then the 2005 S197. 166,915 and 173,676 to the S197's 160,975 and 166,530. Overall From 1999-2004 the "contemporary" looking Mustang had more sales then the S197 did from 2005-2009. 964,155 to 620,005. That's over 344,150 more New Edge Mustangs sold then S197's. If the Mustang remained Contemporary who knows what would of really happened. Why did Ford go Retro? Simple, to appeal to the baby boomers right at the prime opportunity. The Mustang has always had a distinct look.
The styling of the '05 S197 didn't save the Mustang period. The Mustang wasn't sinking like the Camaro in it's last years before it was temporarily halted. As I mentioned before Sales numbers prove your opinion completely wrong.
Too much good competition? From who? At the time the Camaro was long gone along with the firebird and the Challenger wasn't even around.
If Ford went with a more contemporary design they might of sold more cars, however the retro theme sparked some energy with the baby boomers. The SN95 and New Edge stood out very well during there times, in fact they still stand out very well even today. They were original and forward in design direction, without reverting to the retro look.
I don't think a Mustang will ever go without at least one V-8 option. Those Pushrod two-valves namely the LS3 are great engines. For the power they produce they're light, efficient and easier to build then a DOHC engine. The LS1 was MUCH faster then a comparable 2 valve OHC 4.6
The new 5.0 is a great engine and looks like it is very capable of some impressive numbers as proven already from the many dyno runs and drag racer's who have been testing with them.
It certainly is very advanced and well designed. I'm sure it'll get GDI in the future.
Not sure why it being offered in a 2011 F-150 is important to this topic? Yes it has better numbers then those choices from GM and Dodge...
It's relatively friendlier to the environment then previous engines yes. It's still a performance V8, not some sort of super green machine. Most engines today have the capability of lasting a very long time.
American based Automobile company- Every car company is Global now.
As far as being the technological leader I'd say Ford is very progressive in it's efforts, however just because one company uses a Pushrod design over DOHC for some of it's engines certainly doesn't make it behind the times. The C5 Corvette got better gas mileage then the SN95-New Edge Mustang and today with the C6 it probably still does. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all building some very impressive technologically backed cars.
The new 5.0 will be tweaked and refined over the next few years as competition heats up. Right now in Europe and the rest of the world a 5.0 is considered large in the realm of overall displacement. Here in the U.S. where larger displacement engines are abundant it fits in pretty good.
How do you know what size and weight GM's next generation V8 will be? Last I heard it's dropping to a 5.5 for the 6th gen. Camaro. I don't know what Chrysler is doing in the near future for the next Challenger. I will say, neither company will have obsolete powertrains when compared to what Ford will be coming out with. GM is working on it's own version of Ecoboost.
3. "Is it getting to be too much car at this point?" This is a really difficult prognosis to make. Truthfully, I don't know--the market is notorious for moving on to "the next big thing", for better or for worse. Think how big the musclecars were at one time. Back around 1969, one third of all Plymouth intermediates (Belvederes, I believe they were--or maybe Satellites. Who cares?) sold were the "Road Runner" performance model. SUVs, currently in trouble in the marketplace, were once the hottest vehicles in the market. Full-sized vans with lots of custom touches were big before that. Minitrucks had their day in the limelight, too. Electric vehicle manufacturers are hoping their heyday is just ahead. Mustangs have survived where so many, many others have come and gone. You know the history: the originals, the Mustang IIs, the fox bodies, yada yada yada. The S197 of today is the second-biggest Mustang ever--but it is also far and away the best Mustang ever produced. Great basics, great options, great acceleration/braking/handling, great looks, great safety, great environmental compliance, great value--if it is great, it is probably offered in a Mustang. Offering all this greatness requires some volume to contain the roomiest Mustang interior ever, the most crashworthy Mustang ever, the most advanced Mustang powertrains ever, the best-handling Mustang ever, the fastest-accelerating Mustang ever, possibly the most economical Mustang ever, probably the best-braking Mustang ever, certainly the most comfortable Mustang ever, the most utilitarian Mustang ever, and the lowest emissions Mustang ever. Yeah, all this in a two-feet shorter, one-foot narrower, four inches lower, and four-hundred pounds lighter Mustang would please us all--but what would you have to give up to get those specifications? Or what would you have to pay to get those specifications without having to give up some of the greatness? Ford is steadily improving the Mustang while trying to keep it affordable--This year you got the TiVCT 5.0L V8 and a choice of two six-speed transmissions plus dozens of detail improvements for an additional $1100. Chevy & Dodge would maybe throw in a stripes-wheels-and-upgraded-upholstery-trim package for $1100 in their POS imitations...
The next Mustang will be smaller. It will be lighter. And contrary to popular belief the next Mustang will be a much better car then the great car we have today. Chevrolet and Dodge do not have POS imitations. Yes the Camaro and Challenger are exactly original like the Mustang, but they both have their own personalities and character just like the Mustang.
The Mustang made such an overwhelmingly great impression when first introduced that you would have to be stupid not to come up with a competitor. The Camaro and Challenger are hardly imitations. They share the basic proportions, Engine choice and size, aside from this they are completely their own style. The Mustang set the tone for what would be an incredibly popular segment almost 50 years later.
All three companies make great cars
Greg "That's all I have to say about that" Ates
The styling of the '05 S197 didn't save the Mustang period. The Mustang wasn't sinking like the Camaro in it's last years before it was temporarily halted. As I mentioned before Sales numbers prove your opinion completely wrong.
Too much good competition? From who? At the time the Camaro was long gone along with the firebird and the Challenger wasn't even around.
If Ford went with a more contemporary design they might of sold more cars, however the retro theme sparked some energy with the baby boomers. The SN95 and New Edge stood out very well during there times, in fact they still stand out very well even today. They were original and forward in design direction, without reverting to the retro look.
I don't think a Mustang will ever go without at least one V-8 option. Those Pushrod two-valves namely the LS3 are great engines. For the power they produce they're light, efficient and easier to build then a DOHC engine. The LS1 was MUCH faster then a comparable 2 valve OHC 4.6
The new 5.0 is a great engine and looks like it is very capable of some impressive numbers as proven already from the many dyno runs and drag racer's who have been testing with them.
It certainly is very advanced and well designed. I'm sure it'll get GDI in the future.
Not sure why it being offered in a 2011 F-150 is important to this topic? Yes it has better numbers then those choices from GM and Dodge...
It's relatively friendlier to the environment then previous engines yes. It's still a performance V8, not some sort of super green machine. Most engines today have the capability of lasting a very long time.
American based Automobile company- Every car company is Global now.
As far as being the technological leader I'd say Ford is very progressive in it's efforts, however just because one company uses a Pushrod design over DOHC for some of it's engines certainly doesn't make it behind the times. The C5 Corvette got better gas mileage then the SN95-New Edge Mustang and today with the C6 it probably still does. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all building some very impressive technologically backed cars.
The new 5.0 will be tweaked and refined over the next few years as competition heats up. Right now in Europe and the rest of the world a 5.0 is considered large in the realm of overall displacement. Here in the U.S. where larger displacement engines are abundant it fits in pretty good.
How do you know what size and weight GM's next generation V8 will be? Last I heard it's dropping to a 5.5 for the 6th gen. Camaro. I don't know what Chrysler is doing in the near future for the next Challenger. I will say, neither company will have obsolete powertrains when compared to what Ford will be coming out with. GM is working on it's own version of Ecoboost.
3. "Is it getting to be too much car at this point?" This is a really difficult prognosis to make. Truthfully, I don't know--the market is notorious for moving on to "the next big thing", for better or for worse. Think how big the musclecars were at one time. Back around 1969, one third of all Plymouth intermediates (Belvederes, I believe they were--or maybe Satellites. Who cares?) sold were the "Road Runner" performance model. SUVs, currently in trouble in the marketplace, were once the hottest vehicles in the market. Full-sized vans with lots of custom touches were big before that. Minitrucks had their day in the limelight, too. Electric vehicle manufacturers are hoping their heyday is just ahead. Mustangs have survived where so many, many others have come and gone. You know the history: the originals, the Mustang IIs, the fox bodies, yada yada yada. The S197 of today is the second-biggest Mustang ever--but it is also far and away the best Mustang ever produced. Great basics, great options, great acceleration/braking/handling, great looks, great safety, great environmental compliance, great value--if it is great, it is probably offered in a Mustang. Offering all this greatness requires some volume to contain the roomiest Mustang interior ever, the most crashworthy Mustang ever, the most advanced Mustang powertrains ever, the best-handling Mustang ever, the fastest-accelerating Mustang ever, possibly the most economical Mustang ever, probably the best-braking Mustang ever, certainly the most comfortable Mustang ever, the most utilitarian Mustang ever, and the lowest emissions Mustang ever. Yeah, all this in a two-feet shorter, one-foot narrower, four inches lower, and four-hundred pounds lighter Mustang would please us all--but what would you have to give up to get those specifications? Or what would you have to pay to get those specifications without having to give up some of the greatness? Ford is steadily improving the Mustang while trying to keep it affordable--This year you got the TiVCT 5.0L V8 and a choice of two six-speed transmissions plus dozens of detail improvements for an additional $1100. Chevy & Dodge would maybe throw in a stripes-wheels-and-upgraded-upholstery-trim package for $1100 in their POS imitations...
The next Mustang will be smaller. It will be lighter. And contrary to popular belief the next Mustang will be a much better car then the great car we have today. Chevrolet and Dodge do not have POS imitations. Yes the Camaro and Challenger are exactly original like the Mustang, but they both have their own personalities and character just like the Mustang.
The Mustang made such an overwhelmingly great impression when first introduced that you would have to be stupid not to come up with a competitor. The Camaro and Challenger are hardly imitations. They share the basic proportions, Engine choice and size, aside from this they are completely their own style. The Mustang set the tone for what would be an incredibly popular segment almost 50 years later.
All three companies make great carsGreg "That's all I have to say about that" Ates
There's a lot to comment upon here--and with the friggin' Time-Out set on such a ridiculously short fuse it is hard to discuss anything much more complex than seat back settings in a response. But here goes:
I disagree with it all.
First off, dreary imitations like the Camaro and the Challenger are not--and weren't ever--competitors for the Mustang. There's not an original ounce in either of the two--and they wouldn't have existed at all in the 'Sixties were it not for the brilliance that was the original Mustang and the would not have been resurrected today if it wasn't for the brilliance that is the S197. Sales aren't the end-all and be-all of success--notice how many Camrys cruise your neighborbood? Any year that the Barracuda, Cougar, Camaro, Firebird, Javelin, and Challenger outsold the Mustang--individually or collectively--is a year that validates P.T. Barnum's observation that there is a Barracuda or Cougar or Camaro or Firebird or Javelin or Challenger customer born every minute. People should have to pass some kind of automotive competency certification before they issue them a set of loaded genitals.
If styling counts for something, which I firmly believe it does, then the Mustang wandered in the styling wilderness like the children of Israel for 34 years after the 1970 Model Year until the 2005 Model Year. The S197 finally rescued true Mustang DNA that most of us thought had died at the end of the 1970 Model Year. 'Gotta tell ya it hurt to see my favorite affordable performance car morph into the beached whale that was the 1971 model, or the cutesy 1974s, or the positively drab Foxes, yada yada yada
. It was the Dark Ages of Mustang history...Pushrod engines were great once upon a time. So were biplanes, catapults, lever-action Winchesters, steam locomotives, and cobblestones. Now, they're quaint. That's how the DOHC TiVCT 5.0L outperforms and gets better mileage at fewer pollutants per mile than any of the much bigger pushrodders that power the imitators. Like they say at GM: "Why make an engine better when you can still make it bigger?" Why, indeed...
"GM is working on it's own version of Ecoboost." Of course they are--they'll inspect Ford's EcoBoost engines and see how boost works and eventually come out with some imitation of their own. Is this deja vu or what?
"Yes the Camaro and Challenger are exactly original like the Mustang" WHAT??? The only original part on the new Camaro is the phallic shift lever, which is taking "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" a little too far, IMO, but they know their customers soooo...
"All three companies make great cars". Is that why GM will pay $35,000 to a mag for the rights to publish any "Best Buy" rating for any of its vehicles, as the Wall Street Journal reported GM does with "Consumer's Digest"? Making great cars generally doesn't lead to bankruptcy on a planet where over 9 million vehicles are sold each year in bad years.
Greg "Tell it like it is" Ates
Last edited by Eights; 10/14/10 at 02:02 PM.