Mustang 3.5L Ecoboost engine swap
3/28/16, 08:58 AM
#1201
Mach 1 Member
See below..
LEXiiON
Last edited by LEXiiON; 3/28/16 at 09:03 AM.
3/28/16, 09:32 AM
#1202
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
I'm 99% sure he's still good. There are 2 clearly different kinds of returnless fuel systems, electronic and mechanical, I did my homework on this. If he had an electronic returnless it wouldn't work because there's nothing to control the pumps and no way to bleed off excessive pressure....just like when we had the gt500 pumps running. But with a mechanical returnless there's no need to control the pumps although it should have the flow reduced at idle to keep fuel temps down.
The GT/V6 pump won't create pressures above 58 PSI, we have proved this by bypassing the fuel pump module and wiring my pump directly to 12v. This is how I've driven the car on the last 2 test drives, this will be no different for the control pack setup with the pump wired direct....constant 58 PSI. They call the system returnless but for the mechanical returnless that description isn't accurate. It is naturally returning fuel constantly, it's just doing it inside the tank instead of externally. IMO it's actually a return style fuel system, a smart version of it. It's smart because it's returning the fuel at the pump and not passing it all the way to engine then bleeding off pressure and returning the extra fuel to the tank. Things would heat up much less with that design. I don't think it will hurt the pump to run this way, when above idle the pump runs at 100% so the only time additional wear would occur is at idle but I don't think it's significant.
The goal is to maintain a constant mid 50 psi pressure, the pump already does exactly that, I'm sure it will work fine. If they were electronic returnless it would over pressure the fuel system because there's nothing to regulate it, you could see extremely high pressures which wouldn't work...I believe that's what's being referred to in the info you posted. Those instructions are to use with any vechicle, not just the 2011+ mustangs.
The GT/V6 pump won't create pressures above 58 PSI, we have proved this by bypassing the fuel pump module and wiring my pump directly to 12v. This is how I've driven the car on the last 2 test drives, this will be no different for the control pack setup with the pump wired direct....constant 58 PSI. They call the system returnless but for the mechanical returnless that description isn't accurate. It is naturally returning fuel constantly, it's just doing it inside the tank instead of externally. IMO it's actually a return style fuel system, a smart version of it. It's smart because it's returning the fuel at the pump and not passing it all the way to engine then bleeding off pressure and returning the extra fuel to the tank. Things would heat up much less with that design. I don't think it will hurt the pump to run this way, when above idle the pump runs at 100% so the only time additional wear would occur is at idle but I don't think it's significant.
The goal is to maintain a constant mid 50 psi pressure, the pump already does exactly that, I'm sure it will work fine. If they were electronic returnless it would over pressure the fuel system because there's nothing to regulate it, you could see extremely high pressures which wouldn't work...I believe that's what's being referred to in the info you posted. Those instructions are to use with any vechicle, not just the 2011+ mustangs.
Last edited by Ecostang; 3/28/16 at 09:54 AM.
3/28/16, 09:39 AM
#1203
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Also while doing my homework I learned the reason they added the fuel pump speed control for 2011+ with mechanical returnless was for emissions, when the fuel is heated up it vaporizes excessively and makes the vapor recovery system work harder which was producing more emissions. The speed control was necessary for an electronic returnless for obvious reasons.
If the pumps was wearing excessively or the fuel was getting too warm from lots of idling, sitting in traffic for example, the fuel pump speed controller I posted would fix that.
If the pumps was wearing excessively or the fuel was getting too warm from lots of idling, sitting in traffic for example, the fuel pump speed controller I posted would fix that.
Last edited by Ecostang; 3/28/16 at 09:54 AM.
3/28/16, 09:57 AM
#1204
Mach 1 Member
Also while doing my homework I learned the reason they added the fuel pump speed control for 2011+ with mechanical returnless was for emissions, when the fuel is heated up it vaporizes excessively and makes the vapor recovery system work harder which was producing more emissions. The speed control was necessary for an electronic returnless for obvious reasons.
If the pumps was wearing excessively or the fuel was getting too warm from lots of idling, sitting in traffic for example, the fuel pump speed controller I posted would fix that.
If the pumps was wearing excessively or the fuel was getting too warm from lots of idling, sitting in traffic for example, the fuel pump speed controller I posted would fix that.
Just saying.....
LEXiiON
3/28/16, 10:11 AM
#1205
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Sorry not trying to argue, I understand the confusion with it. Had I not spent probably 16 hrs researching this subject I would have completely agreed with you. The term "returnless" is used loosely on the 2011+ IMHO. I guess it's returnless because it never leaves the tank. It's actually quite genius, the pumps have very little interaction with the PCM unlike the electronic returnless....basically going from a constant varied speed to a 2 speed design. Makes swaps like this much simpler, they essentially dumbed down the fuel system on the 2011+ GT/V6.
To be clear the fuel pump controller I posted would not work on electronic returnless pumps unless there was a mechanical bypass added somewhere in the system. The aftermarket fuel pump controller is more like the control found in mechanical returnless....only 2 speeds. It just detects rpm and speeds up the pump to 100% when they go over "x" rpm. When I reinstall the gt500 pump I'll need to add a mechanical bypass since the pump doesn't come with that. If I didn't have the PCM controlling the speed I would defintely add the aeromotive fuel pump controller to keep the fuel temps down.
To be clear the fuel pump controller I posted would not work on electronic returnless pumps unless there was a mechanical bypass added somewhere in the system. The aftermarket fuel pump controller is more like the control found in mechanical returnless....only 2 speeds. It just detects rpm and speeds up the pump to 100% when they go over "x" rpm. When I reinstall the gt500 pump I'll need to add a mechanical bypass since the pump doesn't come with that. If I didn't have the PCM controlling the speed I would defintely add the aeromotive fuel pump controller to keep the fuel temps down.
Last edited by Ecostang; 3/28/16 at 10:14 AM.
3/28/16, 10:38 AM
#1206
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Lexiion I would say there is one curve ball in this discussion. Do you remember the video I sent you of the fuel pressure gauge bouncing rapidly from 80 to 40? The reason that happens is because fuel is being bled off from the high pressure side in to the low pressure side. I would assume this additional pressure is ultimately bled off in the low pressure return. This should keep the higher pressure from hitting the fuel pump. It shouldn't matter if it's being bled off under the hood or in the tank as long as the return fuel bleed off is happening between the lpfp and the hpfp.
3/28/16, 12:58 PM
#1208
Mach 1 Member
3/28/16, 02:01 PM
#1209
Legacy TMS Member
Originally Posted by LEXiiON
Naaaah. Her SUV is too slow for the Shelby's... Not gonna happen 
LEXiiON
LEXiiON
Catch us if you can........
4/2/16, 08:20 PM
#1211
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Well guys I've been thinking a lot about what my ultimate goal is with the car and it's clear to me that I should make this a street legal drag car, I'm going to forget about using it for road course racing for a number of reasons. This requires a significant change to the car that I've been considering for a week....going with an auto trans. For drag racing with turbos it has many advantages that are important if I want to get serious about racing. Using a trans brake I can build more boost at the line, one button launches, and I won't lose boost pressure like a manual does between shifts. They are stronger and I won't miss any shifts....there's even a good chance my 3.73 gears will work well with my setup and an auto trans. I'll lose 35 whp but the benefits out weigh that for a drag car.
Will an auto take away some fun on the street? Perhaps, but I will be adding paddle shifters to help with that. I rented a 2016 mustang while in Maine this last week, it was a 3.7 auto and it was a blast to drive. Switched it to sport mode and it becomes a clutchless manual, pretty cool.
Seems dumb to have not figured this out long ago and never put in a manual but there is a perfectly good explanation for this. When this project started I planned to use a control pack which didn't support an auto trans. Because of this I thought the car would be more competitive at road course racing rather than a drag strip. What's changed since then is that we got the f150 PCM to work in the car creating the option to use auto trans and I've learned that the engine is capable of 1000 hp. These are game changers and makes the car much more competitive at the drag strip. I've tried resisting to change the trans be use we are so far along with the manual but I think it's inevitable.
Will an auto take away some fun on the street? Perhaps, but I will be adding paddle shifters to help with that. I rented a 2016 mustang while in Maine this last week, it was a 3.7 auto and it was a blast to drive. Switched it to sport mode and it becomes a clutchless manual, pretty cool.
Seems dumb to have not figured this out long ago and never put in a manual but there is a perfectly good explanation for this. When this project started I planned to use a control pack which didn't support an auto trans. Because of this I thought the car would be more competitive at road course racing rather than a drag strip. What's changed since then is that we got the f150 PCM to work in the car creating the option to use auto trans and I've learned that the engine is capable of 1000 hp. These are game changers and makes the car much more competitive at the drag strip. I've tried resisting to change the trans be use we are so far along with the manual but I think it's inevitable.
4/2/16, 08:29 PM
#1212
Mach 1 Member
Well guys I've been thinking a lot about what my ultimate goal is with the car and it's clear to me that I should make this a street legal drag car, I'm going to forget about using it for road course racing for a number of reasons. This requires a significant change to the car that I've been considering for a week....going with an auto trans. For drag racing with turbos it has many advantages that are important if I want to get serious about racing. Using a trans brake I can build more boost at the line, one button launches, and I won't lose boost pressure like a manual does between shifts. They are stronger and I won't miss any shifts....there's even a good chance my 3.73 gears will work well with my setup and an auto trans. I'll lose 35 whp but the benefits out weigh that for a drag car.
Will an auto take away some fun on the street? Perhaps, but I will be adding paddle shifters to help with that. I rented a 2016 mustang while in Maine this last week, it was a 3.7 auto and it was a blast to drive. Switched it to sport mode and it becomes a clutchless manual, pretty cool.
Seems dumb to have not figured this out long ago and never put in a manual but there is a perfectly good explanation for this. When this project started I planned to use a control pack which didn't support an auto trans. Because of this I thought the car would be more competitive at road course racing rather than a drag strip. What's changed since then is that we got the f150 PCM to work in the car creating the option to use auto trans and I've learned that the engine is capable of 1000 hp. These are game changers and makes the car much more competitive at the drag strip. I've tried resisting to change the trans be use we are so far along with the manual but I think it's inevitable.
Will an auto take away some fun on the street? Perhaps, but I will be adding paddle shifters to help with that. I rented a 2016 mustang while in Maine this last week, it was a 3.7 auto and it was a blast to drive. Switched it to sport mode and it becomes a clutchless manual, pretty cool.
Seems dumb to have not figured this out long ago and never put in a manual but there is a perfectly good explanation for this. When this project started I planned to use a control pack which didn't support an auto trans. Because of this I thought the car would be more competitive at road course racing rather than a drag strip. What's changed since then is that we got the f150 PCM to work in the car creating the option to use auto trans and I've learned that the engine is capable of 1000 hp. These are game changers and makes the car much more competitive at the drag strip. I've tried resisting to change the trans be use we are so far along with the manual but I think it's inevitable.
LEXiiON
4/2/16, 08:52 PM
#1213
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
4/2/16, 09:00 PM
#1214
Mach 1 Member
jk...
4/2/16, 09:06 PM
#1215
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
4/2/16, 09:07 PM
#1216
Mach 1 Member
4/2/16, 09:34 PM
#1218
Mach 1 Member
4/2/16, 09:58 PM
#1219
Cobra Member
Thread Starter
Haha, well it's only been beer so far 
I deserve the grief, I'm not making this job any easier. Honestly if I wasn't enjoying working on the car I wouldn't consider it, I'll probably need a solid weekend to swap it back to auto. I think Lexiion is having fun working on the car with me, he appreciates the challenge. Today we were at a car show in Boulder and Lexiion was telling a guy who was admiring his car what all he had done to it. The guy replied "that's got to be the craziest swap I've heard of" and me and Lexiion just started laughing, that swap was nothing in comparison to the ecostang.
I deserve the grief, I'm not making this job any easier. Honestly if I wasn't enjoying working on the car I wouldn't consider it, I'll probably need a solid weekend to swap it back to auto. I think Lexiion is having fun working on the car with me, he appreciates the challenge. Today we were at a car show in Boulder and Lexiion was telling a guy who was admiring his car what all he had done to it. The guy replied "that's got to be the craziest swap I've heard of" and me and Lexiion just started laughing, that swap was nothing in comparison to the ecostang.
4/2/16, 10:00 PM
#1220
Mach 1 Member
Haha, well it's only been beer so far
I deserve the grief, I'm not making this job any easier. Honestly if I wasn't enjoying working on the car I wouldn't consider it, I'll probably need a solid weekend to swap it back to auto. I think Lexiion is having fun working on the car with me, he appreciates the challenge. Today we were at a car show in Boulder and Lexiion was telling a guy who was admiring his car what all he had done to it. The guy replied "that's got to be the craziest swap I've heard of" and me and Lexiion just started laughing, that swap was nothing in comparison to the ecostang.
I deserve the grief, I'm not making this job any easier. Honestly if I wasn't enjoying working on the car I wouldn't consider it, I'll probably need a solid weekend to swap it back to auto. I think Lexiion is having fun working on the car with me, he appreciates the challenge. Today we were at a car show in Boulder and Lexiion was telling a guy who was admiring his car what all he had done to it. The guy replied "that's got to be the craziest swap I've heard of" and me and Lexiion just started laughing, that swap was nothing in comparison to the ecostang.
LEXiiON