Brake Fluid Leak Damage?
12/17/07, 03:16 PM
#141
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Oh god.. I'm f'in P*SSED right now. Dropped my car off at the dealership this morning for the second repair attempt for the leaking brake fluid. 8 hours later, they are just putting on a new reservior cap. So I go to take my car back... AND THEY SCRATCHED MY CAR.
I took great pleasure in hand washing this car... doing the klasse AIO thing, followed by several glaze coats... followed by wax. When I'd get to work in the morning, I'd pull out my California Duster and wipe off any dust that might have settled on the hood in the 5 minutes it took me to get to work. I'd walk 1/4 mile in parking lots just to avoid having anyone park near me and ding my car. I make my wife wear soft slippers before she can drive it. .... and the DEALERSHIP scratches it... clear down to the metal on the drivers side front fender.
Sure, they'll fix it. Sure, they'll give me a rental car. It doesn't matter. I'm the owner of that car, and I'm supposed to be the one that puts on the first scratch. There is nothing whatsoever they could possibly do to "make this better."
I took great pleasure in hand washing this car... doing the klasse AIO thing, followed by several glaze coats... followed by wax. When I'd get to work in the morning, I'd pull out my California Duster and wipe off any dust that might have settled on the hood in the 5 minutes it took me to get to work. I'd walk 1/4 mile in parking lots just to avoid having anyone park near me and ding my car. I make my wife wear soft slippers before she can drive it. .... and the DEALERSHIP scratches it... clear down to the metal on the drivers side front fender.
Sure, they'll fix it. Sure, they'll give me a rental car. It doesn't matter. I'm the owner of that car, and I'm supposed to be the one that puts on the first scratch. There is nothing whatsoever they could possibly do to "make this better."
12/26/07, 07:13 PM
#142
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Hey... guess what? New cap didn't fix it. I'm not surprised. Guess it's time to send that certified letter, return receipt requested, to Ford. I wonder if the cost of replacing the car would get them to actually try to fix this issue.
Honestly, though, I'm not sure how it would be fixed. The cap looks to provide a decent seal, but the leak definatly occurs at the threads. It's almost as if the brake fluid is expanding enough to force all air and then some fluid out of the reservior regardless of the seal (and if the cap seal didn't give, then something else likely would.) How would Ford be able to prevent that from happening?
Honestly, though, I'm not sure how it would be fixed. The cap looks to provide a decent seal, but the leak definatly occurs at the threads. It's almost as if the brake fluid is expanding enough to force all air and then some fluid out of the reservior regardless of the seal (and if the cap seal didn't give, then something else likely would.) How would Ford be able to prevent that from happening?
12/27/07, 03:48 PM
#143
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Hey Gary did you try lowering the fluid level to a midway point between the two arrows. Like I mentioned awhile back ever since I did that ...no leaks .... bone dry!
12/27/07, 06:46 PM
#144
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Oh, I'm sure that would certainly help. On the other hand, with new brake pads, the level is SUPPOSED to be at max... and work its way down to min as the pads wear down. That would imply that dropping the level down to the midpoint would leave me below min when the pads are worn. Of course, I could just add more fluid when needed (and pull it back out when I replace the pads...)
Wouldn't it be better, though, if Ford actually fixed the problem? Then we could blindly follow the owners manual in keeping our fluids at the proper level (ensuring the life of our warranty) and it wouldn't cause damage to anything under the hood.
BTW, sarcasm aside, the leaking fluid is a symptom of a larger problem: brake fluid systems are supposed to be air tight to prevent - or at least hinder - absorbtion of airborn moisture. If brake fluid is leaking out, the system is NOT air tight. When a high pressure is building inside the system, it's forcing fluid (or perhaps just air if your level is lower) out of the reservior. When the system cools, the inverse happens... sucking outside air into the reservior.
That fresh air contains more moisture which the brake fluid will happily absorb - resulting in the boiling point of the fluid dropping. If the brake fluid boils, the water within turns to a gas - which can easily lead to a brake failure.
Does the Ford service schedule have anything on flushing the brake fluid system? That's the ONLY way to get rid of DOT3 fluid that's absorbed too much moisture.
While I haven't seen anyone post about brake failures as a result of moisture in the line, it IS possible (and perhaps has already happened to S197 owners.) Would it be better to hide a symptom, or push for a solution to a potentially very serious problem? If some lady is crossing the street in front of you with a baby in her arms, do you want to know that your brakes will work?
Yes, this is an extreme... Chances are a Mustang owner (I hope) knows to release and hit their brakes again if they don't work (which would likely work out the gas bubble.) I've seen major car recalls over much less likely things, though. I had a 98 MAzda 626 that was recalled because moisture from an AC vent _might_ drip down on a wire, and if it just happened to drop on the wrong (right?) location, the moon was full, and it was the 2nd Tuesday of the 3rd month - it MIGHT cause a spark - which might cause a fire.
Wouldn't it be better, though, if Ford actually fixed the problem? Then we could blindly follow the owners manual in keeping our fluids at the proper level (ensuring the life of our warranty) and it wouldn't cause damage to anything under the hood.
BTW, sarcasm aside, the leaking fluid is a symptom of a larger problem: brake fluid systems are supposed to be air tight to prevent - or at least hinder - absorbtion of airborn moisture. If brake fluid is leaking out, the system is NOT air tight. When a high pressure is building inside the system, it's forcing fluid (or perhaps just air if your level is lower) out of the reservior. When the system cools, the inverse happens... sucking outside air into the reservior.
That fresh air contains more moisture which the brake fluid will happily absorb - resulting in the boiling point of the fluid dropping. If the brake fluid boils, the water within turns to a gas - which can easily lead to a brake failure.
Does the Ford service schedule have anything on flushing the brake fluid system? That's the ONLY way to get rid of DOT3 fluid that's absorbed too much moisture.
While I haven't seen anyone post about brake failures as a result of moisture in the line, it IS possible (and perhaps has already happened to S197 owners.) Would it be better to hide a symptom, or push for a solution to a potentially very serious problem? If some lady is crossing the street in front of you with a baby in her arms, do you want to know that your brakes will work?
Yes, this is an extreme... Chances are a Mustang owner (I hope) knows to release and hit their brakes again if they don't work (which would likely work out the gas bubble.) I've seen major car recalls over much less likely things, though. I had a 98 MAzda 626 that was recalled because moisture from an AC vent _might_ drip down on a wire, and if it just happened to drop on the wrong (right?) location, the moon was full, and it was the 2nd Tuesday of the 3rd month - it MIGHT cause a spark - which might cause a fire.
1/8/08, 08:41 PM
#147
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If your out of warranty, go for it. If your still in warranty, and you do something like this, make sure you undo it before showing the car to a dealership...
1/8/08, 08:59 PM
#148
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An update: I still have brake fluid leaking. Called up Ford and they basically gave me a run around. I contacted the Maryland Attorney General office to get a clarification on the state lemon law. Two things must occur before I can invoke it for this particular issue: 1: There must be a TOTAL of 4 repair attempts made, and 2: I must notify Ford (not just the dealership) via certified mail and allow them to make a repair attempt via whatever means they want (which is usually via a dealership.) Note that the repair attempt from #2 can be counted against the 4 attempts.
So, I called my dealership back, and talked to the service director. He tells me that since last week he's been checking all the mustangs they get in, and ALL of them have had brake fluid outside the reservior. The Ford engineer he contacted was clueless to the issue. Based on that, he felt that my car is likely already within Ford's specs, and nothing he can do will make it any better. So, I explained that I needed one more service ticket to document three repair attempts so I can send the certified letter to Ford... He agreed. I'll be bringing the car by there tomorrow. At this point, I hope he just gives me a ticket saying that they can't do anything about it so I can proceed with the formal complaint.
As a side note... I drove my car 450 miles today over some mountains (DC area to Western Penn, and back.) My brakes are NOT as firm as they used to be. A couple of times, they fit the description of "spongy", but that feeling would go away the next time I hit the brakes. The car has less than 2000 miles on it. Is this a symptom of too much moisture in the brake fluid? At no time did the brakes actually fail.. they just felt funny. Is there a way to test for water in brake fluid?
So, I called my dealership back, and talked to the service director. He tells me that since last week he's been checking all the mustangs they get in, and ALL of them have had brake fluid outside the reservior. The Ford engineer he contacted was clueless to the issue. Based on that, he felt that my car is likely already within Ford's specs, and nothing he can do will make it any better. So, I explained that I needed one more service ticket to document three repair attempts so I can send the certified letter to Ford... He agreed. I'll be bringing the car by there tomorrow. At this point, I hope he just gives me a ticket saying that they can't do anything about it so I can proceed with the formal complaint.
As a side note... I drove my car 450 miles today over some mountains (DC area to Western Penn, and back.) My brakes are NOT as firm as they used to be. A couple of times, they fit the description of "spongy", but that feeling would go away the next time I hit the brakes. The car has less than 2000 miles on it. Is this a symptom of too much moisture in the brake fluid? At no time did the brakes actually fail.. they just felt funny. Is there a way to test for water in brake fluid?
1/15/08, 02:38 PM
#149
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I'll report back on if I'm still leaking or not. Based on past experiences, I should have an idea within a week...
1/15/08, 06:22 PM
#151
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Well heck if they have a replacement that doesn't leak then why do we have '08's that leak? This is the kind of stuff that ticks me off, especially with something like this where the long term effects can compromise the BRAKE SYSTEM and also end up costing a bundle to fix down the road 
WHY, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY??!!
WHY, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY??!!
1/15/08, 08:35 PM
#152
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Glenn - was the new resevoir the same or different style compared to the older one? (The new one they put on mine is identical to my old one - I actually held the new one up to the old one before they made the switch.)
Lynda - I'm not sure that the reservoir replacement fixes the problem. As I mentioned, the 'new' one I got is identical to the factory 08 one I had. Being that the leakage is obviously coming from the cap opening, it's probably not a matter of the way the reservoir is installed on the master cylinder. Of course, I'm still not convinced that the problem is the resevoir at all - but something deeper in the system. Perhaps the system is building up too much internal pressure, forcing brake fluid out the top of the resevoir past the gasket. I'm no expert in how brake systems work, though, so I have no idea if that would make any sense.
Lynda - I'm not sure that the reservoir replacement fixes the problem. As I mentioned, the 'new' one I got is identical to the factory 08 one I had. Being that the leakage is obviously coming from the cap opening, it's probably not a matter of the way the reservoir is installed on the master cylinder. Of course, I'm still not convinced that the problem is the resevoir at all - but something deeper in the system. Perhaps the system is building up too much internal pressure, forcing brake fluid out the top of the resevoir past the gasket. I'm no expert in how brake systems work, though, so I have no idea if that would make any sense.
1/16/08, 01:02 PM
#153
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Sorry to hear that this is still a problem for '08. I've got to believe that Ford knows about the defective part. I posted several times about the same problem I had in my '05. The brake fluid reservoir was replaced by my dealer. It took a couple of trips, but they didn't argue when they convinced themselves that it was a poorly molded lip on the filler neck.
Another thing that I think has helped me is the use of a Scott Drake aluminum filler cap. Fits really tight. It wasn't leaking at all (for over a year) with the new reservoir, but the aluminum cap is insurance.
Another thing that I think has helped me is the use of a Scott Drake aluminum filler cap. Fits really tight. It wasn't leaking at all (for over a year) with the new reservoir, but the aluminum cap is insurance.
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