Blue Coupe!!! Spy Shots!!
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
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From: Carnegie, PA
Well I guess its just a matter of opinion here but I don't feel that being 3-5 k more is gonna stop people from buying the Camaro for a couple reasons. Like in the past Chevy has the advantage of seeing what the current Mustang offers and will likly top Ford in most aspecs its gonna be a better overall car (performance, options, etc....) The Camaro has a long time far reaching fan base like the Mustang, people are gonna be waiting in line to pick these things up. I think a huge boost will also be that its gonna be the new kid on the block again people sick of Mustangs are gonna buy Camaros and Challengers.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
That is entirely your opinion, and your's alone. However that doesn't give you the right to assume, or speak for others, who may have different points of view.
Just as bt4 had mentioned. it all depends on an individual's income level.
For 3-5k may be pocket change to some. But to others, it's considered as an substantial amount.
As for myself personally. That 3-5k is a very substantial amount, when it concerns a new car purchase. On the other hand, the Mustang provides me with quality performance, along with all the goodies, and better overall value. At an affordable price, that doesn't go over my budget.
IMHO that is far more important, than spending an additional 3-5k for bragging rights !
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
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From: Carnegie, PA
You can also play Devil's advocate. until the cows come home, for all I care.
However the bottom line is. Unless GM is able to price their new Camaro, competitively with the 2010 Mustang, and sell 100,000 units per year. It will not survive in the upcoming market.
In which btw: is NOT an opinion, but a fact. And speaking of facts, this also confirms what I posted earlier.
According to: www.autobytel.com/content/research/archive/index.cfm/make_vch/Chevrolet/model_vch/Camaro/year_si/2002/action/SelectTrim
The 2002 base coupe lists for $18, 415, the base convertible for $26, 410. While the base Z-28 model lists for $22, 830.. followed by the Z-28 convertible for $29, 925
However, according to www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/09-int/2002/ford/mustang/index.html
The 2002 base coupe lists for $ 17, 305, the base convertible for $ 22, 745. While the base GT coupe lists for $22, 965, the GT convertible for $27, 220. Meanwhile the SVT. Cobra coupe lists for $34, 995 followed by the SVT. convertible for $36, 995
Although the base 2002 Z-28.. is just a mere $135.00 cheaper than the base 2002 Mustang GT.
The Z-28 convertible is.. $2, 705.00 more than the GT convertible.
In addition. the base 2002 V-6 Camaro is.. $1,110.00 more than the base 2002 Mustang coupe. While the base V-6 convertible is..$3, 665.00 more than the base V-6 Mustang convertible.
That being said, the Mustang is by far.. your best overall, bang for the buck value. Hands down !
However the bottom line is. Unless GM is able to price their new Camaro, competitively with the 2010 Mustang, and sell 100,000 units per year. It will not survive in the upcoming market.
In which btw: is NOT an opinion, but a fact. And speaking of facts, this also confirms what I posted earlier.
According to: www.autobytel.com/content/research/archive/index.cfm/make_vch/Chevrolet/model_vch/Camaro/year_si/2002/action/SelectTrim
The 2002 base coupe lists for $18, 415, the base convertible for $26, 410. While the base Z-28 model lists for $22, 830.. followed by the Z-28 convertible for $29, 925
However, according to www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/09-int/2002/ford/mustang/index.html
The 2002 base coupe lists for $ 17, 305, the base convertible for $ 22, 745. While the base GT coupe lists for $22, 965, the GT convertible for $27, 220. Meanwhile the SVT. Cobra coupe lists for $34, 995 followed by the SVT. convertible for $36, 995
Although the base 2002 Z-28.. is just a mere $135.00 cheaper than the base 2002 Mustang GT.
The Z-28 convertible is.. $2, 705.00 more than the GT convertible.
In addition. the base 2002 V-6 Camaro is.. $1,110.00 more than the base 2002 Mustang coupe. While the base V-6 convertible is..$3, 665.00 more than the base V-6 Mustang convertible.
One of the big things those numbers miss are the cost of the vehicles with options. as I recall, the Mustang was much better equipped than the Camaro, and the Camaro required around $1000 in options to be on the same playing field (not counting horsepower - which isn't an appeal to the masses).
Either way, the big price difference is the base price of the V6, especially the convertible. Even that $700 is a lot when you are talking about $18,000 cars - thats nearly 5%. When you have an extra $3300 for the Convert, thats an extra 15%. Thats the main reason why the Camaro died out. Remember back then, V6's made up approximated 70% of Mustangs sold. I believe from 2005 til very recently, 50%+ were GTs.
Either way, the big price difference is the base price of the V6, especially the convertible. Even that $700 is a lot when you are talking about $18,000 cars - thats nearly 5%. When you have an extra $3300 for the Convert, thats an extra 15%. Thats the main reason why the Camaro died out. Remember back then, V6's made up approximated 70% of Mustangs sold. I believe from 2005 til very recently, 50%+ were GTs.
That being said, the Mustang is by far.. your best overall, bang for the buck value. Hands down !
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
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From: Carnegie, PA
It's fine to play Devil's Advocate. But look at your argument. The GTO was a better car because it had more base HP, and because of the pedal location? Ok, I'm, convinced!
You'd bet your bottom dollar that a Z06 7.0 will be in a Camaro--are you willing to bet your bottom dollar GM will sell it to you for $35k? To quote Homeboy the Clown, I don't think so.
If you like the Camaro, or Challenger better than the Mustang--I have no problem with that. Different people have different likes and dislikes--it makes the world a much more interesting place. But your assertion that you'd rather have a 400-HP Camaro for $35k than a 315-HP Bullitt for the same price, blatantly ignores a couple of facts. Neither you nor GM has determined what Chevy will charge for a 400-hp Camaro and the Bullitt MSRP is not $35K. The MSRP is $31,075, Almost $4,000 dollars less than the mythical Camaro you mention reverently.
To concede to your point of view, there will be some people who are willing to pay a premium ($4k more?) to have something new, and to have the bragging rights of 'mine is bigger than yours'. But, will there be enough to buyers to sell 165,000 units in a year (2005 Mustang)? Homey don't think so.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. GM has more than hinted it needs the new Camaro to at 100,000 units a year to survive. As oil zooms past $100 a barrel and gas climbs to $4 a gallon. Consider this GM is poised to offer (according to you) a 400-hp 7.0L V8 in it's Camaro, in a car that will weigh as much as 3700-3800-lbs, while Ford mulls slapping a 340-hp turbo V6, which has already been designed for flex-fuel in the Mustang (under 3500-lbs). What do you think? Which one looks like a better proposition to survive the coming market?
You'd bet your bottom dollar that a Z06 7.0 will be in a Camaro--are you willing to bet your bottom dollar GM will sell it to you for $35k? To quote Homeboy the Clown, I don't think so.
If you like the Camaro, or Challenger better than the Mustang--I have no problem with that. Different people have different likes and dislikes--it makes the world a much more interesting place. But your assertion that you'd rather have a 400-HP Camaro for $35k than a 315-HP Bullitt for the same price, blatantly ignores a couple of facts. Neither you nor GM has determined what Chevy will charge for a 400-hp Camaro and the Bullitt MSRP is not $35K. The MSRP is $31,075, Almost $4,000 dollars less than the mythical Camaro you mention reverently.
To concede to your point of view, there will be some people who are willing to pay a premium ($4k more?) to have something new, and to have the bragging rights of 'mine is bigger than yours'. But, will there be enough to buyers to sell 165,000 units in a year (2005 Mustang)? Homey don't think so.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. GM has more than hinted it needs the new Camaro to at 100,000 units a year to survive. As oil zooms past $100 a barrel and gas climbs to $4 a gallon. Consider this GM is poised to offer (according to you) a 400-hp 7.0L V8 in it's Camaro, in a car that will weigh as much as 3700-3800-lbs, while Ford mulls slapping a 340-hp turbo V6, which has already been designed for flex-fuel in the Mustang (under 3500-lbs). What do you think? Which one looks like a better proposition to survive the coming market?
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
It's quite possible that if the Camaro offers a refined & balanced chassis (it will have IRS, remember), that Chevy may price V8 models a bit higher than the Mustang GT, because the Camaro may appeal to the same crowd who would be willing to shell out the money for a Nissan Z-car, but who are looking for a more refined American muscle car that goes a bit beyond what Ford has been willing to offer with the Mustang.
Moreover, there was a lot of talk about taking the Camaro global (i.e. Europe and Australia), which - through economies of scale - not only allows you to create a car a bit more sophisticated than the Mustang, priced accordingly, but would actually demand it.
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
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From: Carnegie, PA
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
How do you define competitively?
It's quite possible that if the Camaro offers a refined & balanced chassis (it will have IRS, remember), that Chevy may price V8 models a bit higher than the Mustang GT, because the Camaro may appeal to the same crowd who would be willing to shell out the money for a Nissan Z-car, but who are looking for a more refined American muscle car that goes a bit beyond what Ford has been willing to offer with the Mustang.
Moreover, there was a lot of talk about taking the Camaro global (i.e. Europe and Australia), which - through economies of scale - not only allows you to create a car a bit more sophisticated than the Mustang, priced accordingly, but would actually demand it.
It's quite possible that if the Camaro offers a refined & balanced chassis (it will have IRS, remember), that Chevy may price V8 models a bit higher than the Mustang GT, because the Camaro may appeal to the same crowd who would be willing to shell out the money for a Nissan Z-car, but who are looking for a more refined American muscle car that goes a bit beyond what Ford has been willing to offer with the Mustang.
Moreover, there was a lot of talk about taking the Camaro global (i.e. Europe and Australia), which - through economies of scale - not only allows you to create a car a bit more sophisticated than the Mustang, priced accordingly, but would actually demand it.
From my understanding..GM has supposedly hinted, it needs the new Camaro to sell at 100,000 + units a year, in order to survive.
If I'm also not mistaken. GM has also claimed, it intends on pricing the Camaro competitively close, with the upcoming 2010 Mustang.
Although that remains to be seen. Especially if it's going to offer a more refined, and balanced chassis, than the Mustang (ie) IRS.
However. if GM intends on reaching it's 100,000 unit goal. IMO. demand will require more than just a select few, who are looking for a more refined American muscle car.
So perhaps all this talk about the Camaro expanding into a global market (i.e. Europe and Australia) could be the solution.
At least for GM's sake. I sure hope so
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
From my understanding..GM has supposedly hinted, it needs the new Camaro to sell at 100,000 + units a year, in order to survive.
If I'm also not mistaken. GM has also claimed, it intends on pricing the Camaro competitively close, with the upcoming 2010 Mustang.
Although that remains to be seen. Especially if it's going to offer a more refined, and balanced chassis, than the Mustang (ie) IRS.
However. if GM intends on reaching it's 100,000 unit goal. IMO. demand will require more than just a select few, who are looking for a more refined American muscle car.
So perhaps all this talk about the Camaro expanding into a global market (i.e. Europe and Australia) could be the solution.
At least for GM's sake. I sure hope so
If I'm also not mistaken. GM has also claimed, it intends on pricing the Camaro competitively close, with the upcoming 2010 Mustang.
Although that remains to be seen. Especially if it's going to offer a more refined, and balanced chassis, than the Mustang (ie) IRS.
However. if GM intends on reaching it's 100,000 unit goal. IMO. demand will require more than just a select few, who are looking for a more refined American muscle car.
So perhaps all this talk about the Camaro expanding into a global market (i.e. Europe and Australia) could be the solution.
At least for GM's sake. I sure hope so
Also, I would expect the 2010 Mustang to at least offer IRS. Not to do so would be tantamount to giving up ground to the Camaro and Challenger in what will be a very crowded musclecar segment.
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
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GM enthusists expressed their misgivings of the GTO and it's styling long before the car was released. GM had it's chance to react, and it chose not to. Instead it made a statement to the effect that it didn't matter if it looked similar or had cues to any previous GTO.
The automotive media generally tried to pump up the car but it wasn't enough. The car wasn't what potential GTO buyers wanted in a GTO despite the engine, perfomance etc.
The automotive media generally tried to pump up the car but it wasn't enough. The car wasn't what potential GTO buyers wanted in a GTO despite the engine, perfomance etc.
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
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From: Carnegie, PA
Well, the Z-car sells in fairly healthy numbers, so there is already a demonstrable market at that price point.
Also, I would expect the 2010 Mustang to at least offer IRS. Not to do so would be tantamount to giving up ground to the Camaro and Challenger in what will be a very crowded musclecar segment.
Also, I would expect the 2010 Mustang to at least offer IRS. Not to do so would be tantamount to giving up ground to the Camaro and Challenger in what will be a very crowded musclecar segment.
Cobra Member
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
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From: NV
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
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From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
18,957 350Zs were sold last year, that's not healthy considering the number of Mustangs sold (134,626 ). That's about 14% of the number of Mustang sold.
It all depends upon how GM chooses to market the Camaro. And if they plan to sell it overseas, expect them to market it a bit upscale of the Mustang - or to at least offer more sophisticated versions that do just that.
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Besides, it won't add more than $500 or so to the cost of the Mustang, based upon that survey Ford sent around last year. Fact is, Ford is charging bloody close to what an IRS equipped Mustang could sell for right now. It's not that they wanted to save us the cost, it's that they wanted to make more on the cars themselves.
And you're right, the S197 was always designed for IRS.
Thank the beancounters for the pram suspension.
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
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Well, it's healthy enough for Nissan to continue manufacturing Z-cars, isn't it?
It all depends upon how GM chooses to market the Camaro. And if they plan to sell it overseas, expect them to market it a bit upscale of the Mustang - or to at least offer more sophisticated versions that do just that.
It all depends upon how GM chooses to market the Camaro. And if they plan to sell it overseas, expect them to market it a bit upscale of the Mustang - or to at least offer more sophisticated versions that do just that.
Though I have no crystal ball, nor am I privy to any internal GM planning data, I don't think GM expects the new Camaro to be a niche market vehicle on the same limited scale as the 350Z. The 0-60 numbers and an IRS may be the numbers and features Motor Trend and Road and Track use to declare the success of the new Camaro, the numbers GM uses to determine success will be sales. If the sales of the new Camaro rise to the level of the Mustang, all will be smiles and back-slapping in Bowtie land. If the sales of the new Camaro are more like the 350Z, the production run will be very short indeed.
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
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From: Massachusetts
I think I was misunderstood a little bit, First try to find a Bullitt for $31,000. Ford needs to step up and control the ADM situation I understand supply and demand but with all these "special edition" Mustangs think we can get one at sticker price by now?
Second, the 7.0 will only be used in the top dog Camaro like the SS to pair up against the GT500. The Z06 makes 505HP with it a far cry from the 400 you thought I said. This should be a hell of a match up though I do expect the SS to cost a tad more and be a tad better performing say 50k for the SS how many people are still paying 75 for a GT500. So to keep things simple and to keep things from staying off track this is all I wanna say
Will the Camaro be as popular as the Mustang? Umm.. maybe for the first year but ultimatley no.
Will there be ADMs for the new Camaro SS or top model, sure but i'm almost posative it wont be as rediculous or as long as the markup on the GT500 (The people buying these cars 20-30k above sticker thinking of the car as a future investment have been watching too much Barret-Jackson)
And most important All i'm saying is that it is at least feasible to make the base V8 Camaro for 30-33k with the 400HP 6.0 LS2 and IRS (Thugh I admit I have also herd rumors of the G8's 365HP V8. I don't think a Camaro for 33k is gonna break the bank for a lot of people because lets face it the Mustang has gotten more expensive every year and it really won't be that far off from the Mustang maybe 2-3k more?
Second, the 7.0 will only be used in the top dog Camaro like the SS to pair up against the GT500. The Z06 makes 505HP with it a far cry from the 400 you thought I said. This should be a hell of a match up though I do expect the SS to cost a tad more and be a tad better performing say 50k for the SS how many people are still paying 75 for a GT500. So to keep things simple and to keep things from staying off track this is all I wanna say
Will the Camaro be as popular as the Mustang? Umm.. maybe for the first year but ultimatley no.
Will there be ADMs for the new Camaro SS or top model, sure but i'm almost posative it wont be as rediculous or as long as the markup on the GT500 (The people buying these cars 20-30k above sticker thinking of the car as a future investment have been watching too much Barret-Jackson)
And most important All i'm saying is that it is at least feasible to make the base V8 Camaro for 30-33k with the 400HP 6.0 LS2 and IRS (Thugh I admit I have also herd rumors of the G8's 365HP V8. I don't think a Camaro for 33k is gonna break the bank for a lot of people because lets face it the Mustang has gotten more expensive every year and it really won't be that far off from the Mustang maybe 2-3k more?
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
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From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
The sales of of the 350Z are not what you'd call robust for anything except a niche market vehicle. I'd like to point out, the Z car has had it's production interrupted before. Its limited sales volume does make it vulnerable to the budget ax.
Though I have no crystal ball, nor am I privy to any internal GM planning data, I don't think GM expects the new Camaro to be a niche market vehicle on the same limited scale as the 350Z. The 0-60 numbers and an IRS may be the numbers and features Motor Trend and Road and Track use to declare the success of the new Camaro, the numbers GM uses to determine success will be sales. If the sales of the new Camaro rise to the level of the Mustang, all will be smiles and back-slapping in Bowtie land. If the sales of the new Camaro are more like the 350Z, the production run will be very short indeed.
Though I have no crystal ball, nor am I privy to any internal GM planning data, I don't think GM expects the new Camaro to be a niche market vehicle on the same limited scale as the 350Z. The 0-60 numbers and an IRS may be the numbers and features Motor Trend and Road and Track use to declare the success of the new Camaro, the numbers GM uses to determine success will be sales. If the sales of the new Camaro rise to the level of the Mustang, all will be smiles and back-slapping in Bowtie land. If the sales of the new Camaro are more like the 350Z, the production run will be very short indeed.
The sales figures quoted above only take into account North American sales for the Z (it's sold internationally), whereas the Mustang is only sold in North America (the trickle that go overseas as custom imports aren't substantive enough to count).
OK...
