Blue Coupe!!! Spy Shots!!
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
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From: Massachusetts
I guess Chevy is breaking the tradition of giving the Camaro the "old" Vette motor. Both the LS1 and LT1 were first in Vettes then put into the Camaro once the Vette got a new motor. I'm kinda suprised that its not getting the 6.0 400HP motor that was in the GTO.... Maybe sources say 365HP but I still think the next base V8 Camaro will be on par with the GTO. Hopefully I'm wrong because the 4th gen years were rough on us Mustang guys, with the exception of 03-04 Cobras.
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
If GM were to offer the LS-2. Do you really think GM could reach it's goal of competitively pricing their upcoming 2010 Camaro, with the 2010 Mustang GT.
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
Thread Starter
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: April 27, 2004
Posts: 5,472
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From: Colorado
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
If GM were to offer the LS-2. Do you really think GM could reach it's goal of competitively pricing their upcoming 2010 Camaro, with the 2010 Mustang GT.
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
Well love it or hate it the GTO had the 6.0 LS2 and IRS for $32,000, how is that out of the realm of possibility for the next Camaro? For as long as I remember the Camaro was always the more powerful of the two but was a bit more expensive. The base V8 Z28 was putting out and underrated 305 HP by 02' while the Mustang GT only had 260. I think the top dog GT500 and SS will be close in power figures but I wouldnt be suprised at all if the base V8 Camaro has 40-50HP more than the Mustang GT. Think about it a 98' Z28 has 5 more HP than the current Mustang GT
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
Well love it or hate it the GTO had the 6.0 LS2 and IRS for $32,000, how is that out of the realm of possibility for the next Camaro? For as long as I remember the Camaro was always the more powerful of the two but was a bit more expensive. The base V8 Z28 was putting out and underrated 305 HP by 02' while the Mustang GT only had 260. I think the top dog GT500 and SS will be close in power figures but I wouldnt be suprised at all if the base V8 Camaro has 40-50HP more than the Mustang GT. Think about it a 98' Z28 has 5 more HP than the current Mustang GT
In which GM knows full well, that if it doesn't. It won't matter if the base V8 Z-28, has 40-50 more HP. than the Mustang GT. People are NOT going to spend an additional $3,000-$7,000 for just a lousy 40-50 HP bump.
Why do you think, the Mustang outsold the F-bodies by a 3-1 margin.
Because it always offered, the better/overall value. As it was better equipped, including more standard features over the Z-28.
The bottom line is.. there's much more to a car, than just HP alone. And if my only concern were horsepower. I'd own a Z-28, instead of a Mustang. But the point is.. I've remained a loyal Ford and Mustang owner, due to the fact. I want and expect more than just raw horsepower. I also want practical quality as well.
That being said, if your so hung up on HP numbers. We have the aftermarket for that purpose.
So think about that !
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 0
If GM were to offer the LS-2. Do you really think GM could reach it's goal of competitively pricing their upcoming 2010 Camaro, with the 2010 Mustang GT.
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
I seriously doubt it. In fact, even with the G8's V8. I still don't believe it's going to be priced for under $35,000. Especially if it includes IRS.
As for the 6.0 400HP engine used in the GTO. It was also the LS-2, and if you recall. that POS was priced at $32,000 MSRP
"GM kills V-8 family and, like Ford, embraces powertrain downsizing.
BY ALISA PRIDDLE, January 2008
The ubiquitous V-8 engine under the hood of full-size SUVs and big cars could go the way of the eight-track tape deck in a modern world where fuel-efficiency and emissions standards are redefining the cars and trucks of tomorrow.
New regulations that will require U.S. vehicle fleets to achieve 35 mpg are responsible for General Motors’ decision to kill plans for a new double overhead cam V-8 engine for luxury cars to replace the aging Northstar V-8, Bob Lutz, GM vice chairman, says in an interview at the 2008 North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
“The replacement of the Northstar, that cancellation was the direct result of the 35-mpg fuel legislation.†GM chairman Rick Wagoner says when the new V-8 family program began, “there was more optimism than we have today,†that V-8 engines could survive in today’s regulatory climate. The engine was to go into production next year, prior to phasing out the Northstar V-8 that is found in many Cadillacs, that is scheduled to be phased out in 2010.
Don’t expect new V-8 families in the future, Lutz says. Rather, look for V-6s tuned to provide low-end torque to power large vehicles.
Ford has been publicizing its EcoBoost powertrain strategy to provide V-8 power with a family of turbocharged V-6 engines with direct injection, starting with a 3.5-liter V-6 in the Lincoln MKS, followed by the Ford Flex, and eventually rolling out to 500,000 vehicles in the next five years."
BY ALISA PRIDDLE, January 2008
The ubiquitous V-8 engine under the hood of full-size SUVs and big cars could go the way of the eight-track tape deck in a modern world where fuel-efficiency and emissions standards are redefining the cars and trucks of tomorrow.
New regulations that will require U.S. vehicle fleets to achieve 35 mpg are responsible for General Motors’ decision to kill plans for a new double overhead cam V-8 engine for luxury cars to replace the aging Northstar V-8, Bob Lutz, GM vice chairman, says in an interview at the 2008 North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
“The replacement of the Northstar, that cancellation was the direct result of the 35-mpg fuel legislation.†GM chairman Rick Wagoner says when the new V-8 family program began, “there was more optimism than we have today,†that V-8 engines could survive in today’s regulatory climate. The engine was to go into production next year, prior to phasing out the Northstar V-8 that is found in many Cadillacs, that is scheduled to be phased out in 2010.
Don’t expect new V-8 families in the future, Lutz says. Rather, look for V-6s tuned to provide low-end torque to power large vehicles.
Ford has been publicizing its EcoBoost powertrain strategy to provide V-8 power with a family of turbocharged V-6 engines with direct injection, starting with a 3.5-liter V-6 in the Lincoln MKS, followed by the Ford Flex, and eventually rolling out to 500,000 vehicles in the next five years."
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
The bottom line is..If my only concern were horsepower. I'd own a Z-28 instead of a Mustang. But the point is.. I've remained a loyal Ford and Mustang owner, due to the fact. I want and expect more than just raw horsepower. I also want practical quality as well.
And if your so hung up on HP numbers. We have the aftermarket for that purpose.
So think about that !
For the average buyer, if not the enthusiast, other factors may play as much, or more of a part in the decision whether to fork over the money for a new vehicle. As mentioned in previous posts, the buying public didn't want to pay the additional $$ for the Holden Monaro, er, I mean GTO. When introduced in 2004 at 350-hp it held the HP advantage over the 2005 Mustang, (though the Mustang was quicker!). When sales didn't take off, GM added 50-hp more to the equation. History shows how well that worked. Sometimes adding horsepower to an existing product just isn't the solution.
Would I like a 400-hp Mustang GT? Sproing! Wait a minute, how much is it going to cost me: 1) to buy 2) to insure 3) at the pump. How much will it weigh? How will it handle? Here's the kicker--would I rather have a 340-hp TT V6 at 3300-lbs, or a 400-hp V8 at 3800-lbs? If Ford were to make me such an offer, I confess, that would be a tough call.
Oh, yeah about that Z28 thing? Yes the '98 Z28 has 5-HP more than the current Mustang GT. And with that extra 5-HP it was also almost a half-second slower from 0-60 (5.5 vs 5.1 seconds). In 2002, the Z28 still had more horsepower than the 2002 Mustang GT. Which one was still production in 2003? That extra HP helped the sales of those F-bodies about as much as the extra horsepower helped to save the GTO. Think about that.
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
The GTO was killed off because of bland styling. Though I agree I did not like the look of the car it was praised by the automotive press for build quality, handling and overall value. Sit inside of one and you will notice how much better the quality of the interior materials are including the seats compared to the Mustang's. It had IRS and all the goodies the Mustang came with for about 32-33 k go to a Ford dealership and see the average price of a new Mustang GT they are all in the 30k range. So Keeping the new Camaro in the low 30s gonna be that hard with IRS and 400hp?
As far as features go the Camaro was always on par with the Mustang. I'm not sure if those stats are correct but I have a friend with a stock 99' Z28 and he walks all over my Cousin's stock 06' GT.
The demise of the Camaro has many reasons not just "the Mustang is better" Yes the Camaro was a more expensive car but still not overpriced. A 98 Z28 ran neck and neck with the top dog 98' Cobra for about the same money and flat out spanked the 5.0 Cobras. Another misque on GMs part was the lack of restyling to keep the car fresh the 97 to 98 makeover was just a new front end while the rest of the sheetmetal remained the same while Ford changed the whole look of the car in 99' to keep buyers interested. People say HP is overrated but the Camaro outhandled and braked the Mustang GT. I gotta tell ya I got my 03 Cobra because I was sick of getting smoked by F-Bodies.
Many felt that the F-Body was more of the enthusiast's car.Part of the reason The Mustang outsold the Camaro a great deal was because of V6 sales. Perhaps on looks (but many people are in love with the new Camaro's styling) I'm not sure of the actual stats but i'm posative that Ford had a much higher rate of V6 sales comapaired to the Camaro/Firebird.
I Did not mean to get off track here but i don't understand why I got attacked for saying that GM could feasibly sell a car with IRS and 400HP in the low 30s a couple grand more than a GT since they did so with the GTO reguardless of the car's success it was a car with 400HP and IRS for low 30s With the exception of the 80s the Camaro was always the quicker car so I don't see why people don't expect that to change. Think about it GM already knows the stats of the current Mustang flock do you think they will build a car that will be out-performed by the Mustang? I'm thinking LS2 in the Z28 for 32-35k and the SS with the Z06 motor for about 45-50k before ADMs
As far as features go the Camaro was always on par with the Mustang. I'm not sure if those stats are correct but I have a friend with a stock 99' Z28 and he walks all over my Cousin's stock 06' GT.
The demise of the Camaro has many reasons not just "the Mustang is better" Yes the Camaro was a more expensive car but still not overpriced. A 98 Z28 ran neck and neck with the top dog 98' Cobra for about the same money and flat out spanked the 5.0 Cobras. Another misque on GMs part was the lack of restyling to keep the car fresh the 97 to 98 makeover was just a new front end while the rest of the sheetmetal remained the same while Ford changed the whole look of the car in 99' to keep buyers interested. People say HP is overrated but the Camaro outhandled and braked the Mustang GT. I gotta tell ya I got my 03 Cobra because I was sick of getting smoked by F-Bodies.
Many felt that the F-Body was more of the enthusiast's car.Part of the reason The Mustang outsold the Camaro a great deal was because of V6 sales. Perhaps on looks (but many people are in love with the new Camaro's styling) I'm not sure of the actual stats but i'm posative that Ford had a much higher rate of V6 sales comapaired to the Camaro/Firebird.
I Did not mean to get off track here but i don't understand why I got attacked for saying that GM could feasibly sell a car with IRS and 400HP in the low 30s a couple grand more than a GT since they did so with the GTO reguardless of the car's success it was a car with 400HP and IRS for low 30s With the exception of the 80s the Camaro was always the quicker car so I don't see why people don't expect that to change. Think about it GM already knows the stats of the current Mustang flock do you think they will build a car that will be out-performed by the Mustang? I'm thinking LS2 in the Z28 for 32-35k and the SS with the Z06 motor for about 45-50k before ADMs
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
I've noticed horsepower is frequently on the logic spin cycle. The logic goes something like this--if it has more horsepower, it must be faster. If it's faster it must be better. If it's faster and more powerful it must sell more. What if the Camaro has more HP? What if the Challenger has more HP?
For the average buyer, if not the enthusiast, other factors may play as much, or more of a part in the decision whether to fork over the money for a new vehicle. As mentioned in previous posts, the buying public didn't want to pay the additional $$ for the Holden Monaro, er, I mean GTO. When introduced in 2004 at 350-hp it held the HP advantage over the 2005 Mustang, (though the Mustang was quicker!). When sales didn't take off, GM added 50-hp more to the equation. History shows how well that worked. Sometimes adding horsepower to an existing product just isn't the solution.
Would I like a 400-hp Mustang GT? Sproing! Wait a minute, how much is it going to cost me: 1) to buy 2) to insure 3) at the pump. How much will it weigh? How will it handle? Here's the kicker--would I rather have a 340-hp TT V6 at 3300-lbs, or a 400-hp V8 at 3800-lbs? If Ford were to make me such an offer, I confess, that would be a tough call.
Oh, yeah about that Z28 thing? Yes the '98 Z28 has 5-HP more than the current Mustang GT. And with that extra 5-HP it was also almost a half-second slower from 0-60 (5.5 vs 5.1 seconds). In 2002, the Z28 still had more horsepower than the 2002 Mustang GT. Which one was still production in 2003? That extra HP helped the sales of those F-bodies about as much as the extra horsepower helped to save the GTO. Think about that.
For the average buyer, if not the enthusiast, other factors may play as much, or more of a part in the decision whether to fork over the money for a new vehicle. As mentioned in previous posts, the buying public didn't want to pay the additional $$ for the Holden Monaro, er, I mean GTO. When introduced in 2004 at 350-hp it held the HP advantage over the 2005 Mustang, (though the Mustang was quicker!). When sales didn't take off, GM added 50-hp more to the equation. History shows how well that worked. Sometimes adding horsepower to an existing product just isn't the solution.
Would I like a 400-hp Mustang GT? Sproing! Wait a minute, how much is it going to cost me: 1) to buy 2) to insure 3) at the pump. How much will it weigh? How will it handle? Here's the kicker--would I rather have a 340-hp TT V6 at 3300-lbs, or a 400-hp V8 at 3800-lbs? If Ford were to make me such an offer, I confess, that would be a tough call.
Oh, yeah about that Z28 thing? Yes the '98 Z28 has 5-HP more than the current Mustang GT. And with that extra 5-HP it was also almost a half-second slower from 0-60 (5.5 vs 5.1 seconds). In 2002, the Z28 still had more horsepower than the 2002 Mustang GT. Which one was still production in 2003? That extra HP helped the sales of those F-bodies about as much as the extra horsepower helped to save the GTO. Think about that.
What should really matter. Is rather than participate in the HP shell game. Ford's approach has been, in addition to providing quality performance. the Mustang also emphasizes upon it's practical/overall quality. At an affordable price..
Which is exactly the reason, why the Mustang has remained in production for over 40 years !
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
The GTO was killed off because of bland styling. Though I agree I did not like the look of the car it was praised by the automotive press for build quality, handling and overall value. Sit inside of one and you will notice how much better the quality of the interior materials are including the seats compared to the Mustang's. It had IRS and all the goodies the Mustang came with for about 32-33 k go to a Ford dealership and see the average price of a new Mustang GT they are all in the 30k range. So Keeping the new Camaro in the low 30s gonna be that hard with IRS and 400hp?
And this is just a guess, the new Camaro with IRS and a 400-HP V8 may be considerably more expensive than the current Mustang GT. (Considerably, is not objective I will admit, to some $500 is considerably, to other $5,000 is pocket change.) If you would like an idea of what a new Camaro equipped with an IRS and 400-hp V8 will cost, right now you can get a ballpark figure. Check out Edmunds Inside line and search on the Holden Commodore SS. The Commodore SS rides on the chassis that will be the foundation of the new Camaro and it's powered by GM's 6.0 V8. The new Pontiac G8 will essentially be a clone of the Commodore and most of the Camaro will be derived from the Holden platform. Base price is $33K, US--but the SS with all the goodies is $37K. I would not be surprised to see the new entry level Camaro V8 priced 2-3k more than the base GT and maybe as much as $5k more. The fully loaded top-end will probably be closer to the GT500 in price than the Mustang GT.
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
The GTO was killed off because of bland styling. Though I agree I did not like the look of the car it was praised by the automotive press for build quality, handling and overall value. Sit inside of one and you will notice how much better the quality of the interior materials are including the seats compared to the Mustang's. It had IRS and all the goodies the Mustang came with for about 32-33 k go to a Ford dealership and see the average price of a new Mustang GT they are all in the 30k range. So Keeping the new Camaro in the low 30s gonna be that hard with IRS and 400hp?
As far as features go the Camaro was always on par with the Mustang. I'm not sure if those stats are correct but I have a friend with a stock 99' Z28 and he walks all over my Cousin's stock 06' GT.
The demise of the Camaro has many reasons not just "the Mustang is better" Yes the Camaro was a more expensive car but still not overpriced. A 98 Z28 ran neck and neck with the top dog 98' Cobra for about the same money and flat out spanked the 5.0 Cobras. Another misque on GMs part was the lack of restyling to keep the car fresh the 97 to 98 makeover was just a new front end while the rest of the sheetmetal remained the same while Ford changed the whole look of the car in 99' to keep buyers interested. People say HP is overrated but the Camaro outhandled and braked the Mustang GT. I gotta tell ya I got my 03 Cobra because I was sick of getting smoked by F-Bodies.
Many felt that the F-Body was more of the enthusiast's car.Part of the reason The Mustang outsold the Camaro a great deal was because of V6 sales. Perhaps on looks (but many people are in love with the new Camaro's styling) I'm not sure of the actual stats but i'm posative that Ford had a much higher rate of V6 sales comapaired to the Camaro/Firebird.
I Did not mean to get off track here but i don't understand why I got attacked for saying that GM could feasibly sell a car with IRS and 400HP in the low 30s a couple grand more than a GT since they did so with the GTO reguardless of the car's success it was a car with 400HP and IRS for low 30s With the exception of the 80s the Camaro was always the quicker car so I don't see why people don't expect that to change. Think about it GM already knows the stats of the current Mustang flock do you think they will build a car that will be out-performed by the Mustang? I'm thinking LS2 in the Z28 for 32-35k and the SS with the Z06 motor for about 45-50k before ADMs
As far as features go the Camaro was always on par with the Mustang. I'm not sure if those stats are correct but I have a friend with a stock 99' Z28 and he walks all over my Cousin's stock 06' GT.
The demise of the Camaro has many reasons not just "the Mustang is better" Yes the Camaro was a more expensive car but still not overpriced. A 98 Z28 ran neck and neck with the top dog 98' Cobra for about the same money and flat out spanked the 5.0 Cobras. Another misque on GMs part was the lack of restyling to keep the car fresh the 97 to 98 makeover was just a new front end while the rest of the sheetmetal remained the same while Ford changed the whole look of the car in 99' to keep buyers interested. People say HP is overrated but the Camaro outhandled and braked the Mustang GT. I gotta tell ya I got my 03 Cobra because I was sick of getting smoked by F-Bodies.
Many felt that the F-Body was more of the enthusiast's car.Part of the reason The Mustang outsold the Camaro a great deal was because of V6 sales. Perhaps on looks (but many people are in love with the new Camaro's styling) I'm not sure of the actual stats but i'm posative that Ford had a much higher rate of V6 sales comapaired to the Camaro/Firebird.
I Did not mean to get off track here but i don't understand why I got attacked for saying that GM could feasibly sell a car with IRS and 400HP in the low 30s a couple grand more than a GT since they did so with the GTO reguardless of the car's success it was a car with 400HP and IRS for low 30s With the exception of the 80s the Camaro was always the quicker car so I don't see why people don't expect that to change. Think about it GM already knows the stats of the current Mustang flock do you think they will build a car that will be out-performed by the Mustang? I'm thinking LS2 in the Z28 for 32-35k and the SS with the Z06 motor for about 45-50k before ADMs
As I've stated before. People are not going to spend 3k-7k for just 40-50 additional HP. Heck not even 70 more HP. is worth that kind of money.
Especially when it's cheaper to modify their existing cars, via the aftermarket.
The point is..why spend 32-37k for the new Z-28 Camaro, when you can purchase a new Mustang GT. for under 30k fully loaded.
In which GM knows full well, from recent history. That outperforming the Mustang alone. wasn't enough to boost it's declining sales, in which finally led to the F-body's demise !
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: October 9, 2006
Posts: 2,757
Likes: 1
From: It's tough in the jungle !
First of all, nobody here is attacking you. All I was pointing out, was that if GM is unable to price their upcoming 2010 Camaro, competitively with the 2010 Mustang. Outperforming the Mustang will not be enough of a factor.
As I've stated before. People are not going to spend 3k-7k for just 40-50 additional HP. Heck not even 70 more HP. is worth that kind of money.
Especially when it's cheaper to modify their existing cars, via the aftermarket.
The point is..why spend 32-37k for the new Z-28 Camaro, when you can purchase a new Mustang GT. for under 30k fully loaded.
In which GM knows full well, from recent history. That outperforming the Mustang alone. wasn't enough to boost it's declining sales, in which finally led to the F-body's demise !
As I've stated before. People are not going to spend 3k-7k for just 40-50 additional HP. Heck not even 70 more HP. is worth that kind of money.
Especially when it's cheaper to modify their existing cars, via the aftermarket.
The point is..why spend 32-37k for the new Z-28 Camaro, when you can purchase a new Mustang GT. for under 30k fully loaded.
In which GM knows full well, from recent history. That outperforming the Mustang alone. wasn't enough to boost it's declining sales, in which finally led to the F-body's demise !
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Well I guess its just a matter of opinion here but I don't feel that being 3-5 k more is gonna stop people from buying the Camaro for a couple reasons. Like in the past Chevy has the advantage of seeing what the current Mustang offers and will likly top Ford in most aspecs its gonna be a better overall car (performance, options, etc....) The Camaro has a long time far reaching fan base like the Mustang, people are gonna be waiting in line to pick these things up. I think a huge boost will also be that its gonna be the new kid on the block again people sick of Mustangs are gonna buy Camaros and Challengers.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Well I guess its just a matter of opinion here but I don't feel that being 3-5 k more is gonna stop people from buying the Camaro for a couple reasons. Like in the past Chevy has the advantage of seeing what the current Mustang offers and will likly top Ford in most aspecs its gonna be a better overall car (performance, options, etc....) The Camaro has a long time far reaching fan base like the Mustang, people are gonna be waiting in line to pick these things up. I think a huge boost will also be that its gonna be the new kid on the block again people sick of Mustangs are gonna buy Camaros and Challengers.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
Just curious has Ford raised the pricing of the Mustang every year since 05'? I remember in 05' I could find a GT coupe for under 30k now every GT stang on the lot is over $30,000
Some commented why spend 3-5k more for more performance if you have the aftermarket.I don't want to have to turn to the aftermarket to compete with the competition and i'm sure i'm not alone. That is why I bought a Cobra and will probly only buy SVT Mustangs in the future.
As far as the GTO goes it's hard to explane the cars failure, These things sometimes happen when the GTO critically acclaimed by the press, yet rejected by the public. Perhaps it was more than the bland styling (that is what turned me off) but at the same time I feel that the pricing of the GTO was still reasonible even though it was a little more than the Mustang. On paper it was the better overall car but the Mustang is the far better looking car, yet performed well and it would have effected my purchase even though I usualy go for the better overall car. I think the GTO had an identity crisis the car's name said "muscle car" but if you actually drive one you think Euro sport coupe. Dive your Mustang back to back with the GTO and the Mustang will give us the Muscle car ride and feel while the GTO reminded me of say a 3 Series Coupe, which is not an insult in any way but overall the marketing crew behind the GTO dropped the ball and didnt sell this car to the right people.
It isn't hard to explain the failure of the GTO--it didn't sell. It is that simple. If it was a better overall car than the Mustang, please explain why people didn't buy 160,000 GTO's instead of 160,000 Mustangs in 2005. (Especially since the extra $2-3K in price doesn't really make a difference.) You are right to say that marketing may have played apart, but all the marketing in the world can't make people buy what they don't want to pay for.
You seem to hold the opinion that $2-3K will not make a difference. And speaking for yourself, from the tone of your posts, it probably doesn't in your case. But don't make the mistake in believing that will hold true for everyone buying a car.
People with the income to afford it buy what they want. You don't have to rationalize it, or justify it to anyone. Yes, the Mustang is not perfect--very few things in this world are. I happened to like my 06 GT. Even with its flaws I enjoy driving it. I even enjoy my 2000 V6--it makes a fine commuter vehicle. Though I can admire a new Camaro, and appreciate the new Challenger, something tells me I will not be sick of my Mustang, just because Dodge and Chevy trot out new pony cars.
Cobra R Member
Joined: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Let me clarify, statisticly speaking the GTO was the better car. It has more standard power, a great handler, top notch interior quality, better bolstered seats, pedal location. Personally I feel the GTO should have been badged as a Buick or Cadillac because it is more of a luxo coupe (kinda what I would want in a new Mercury Cougar) but It was not the direct competiton to the Mustang GM hoped it would be.
Though it may not seem so, I still like the Mustang more but I like to play devil's advocate. Though this is based just on our opinions I feel that those of you who feel Chevy will outprice themselves out of the market are mistaken.
The Corvette is a supercar bargain. Heck a $70,000 Z06 runs neck to neck with the $140,000 Ford GT. This is a huge advantage for Chevy guys because as the past has shown the Camaro has benefitted from many Corvette trickle down parts. In other words the LS2 is already a mass produced V8 how much would it really cost GM to put it in a Camaro? I'll also bet my bottom dollar that the Z06's 7.0 will see it's way under the hood of a Camaro SE. The same output but far less weight than the GT500's 5.4. I was once a die hard Ford loyalist but i am not gonna lie I will consider both the Camaro and the Challenger for my next purchase if I can not find an affordible SE Mustang (i'd rather pay $35,000 for a 400HP Camaro vs a 315HP Bullitt for the same money)
Though it may not seem so, I still like the Mustang more but I like to play devil's advocate. Though this is based just on our opinions I feel that those of you who feel Chevy will outprice themselves out of the market are mistaken.
The Corvette is a supercar bargain. Heck a $70,000 Z06 runs neck to neck with the $140,000 Ford GT. This is a huge advantage for Chevy guys because as the past has shown the Camaro has benefitted from many Corvette trickle down parts. In other words the LS2 is already a mass produced V8 how much would it really cost GM to put it in a Camaro? I'll also bet my bottom dollar that the Z06's 7.0 will see it's way under the hood of a Camaro SE. The same output but far less weight than the GT500's 5.4. I was once a die hard Ford loyalist but i am not gonna lie I will consider both the Camaro and the Challenger for my next purchase if I can not find an affordible SE Mustang (i'd rather pay $35,000 for a 400HP Camaro vs a 315HP Bullitt for the same money)
Bullitt Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Let me clarify, statisticly speaking the GTO was the better car. It has more standard power, a great handler, top notch interior quality, better bolstered seats, pedal location. Personally I feel the GTO should have been badged as a Buick or Cadillac because it is more of a luxo coupe (kinda what I would want in a new Mercury Cougar) but It was not the direct competiton to the Mustang GM hoped it would be.
Though it may not seem so, I still like the Mustang more but I like to play devil's advocate. Though this is based just on our opinions I feel that those of you who feel Chevy will outprice themselves out of the market are mistaken.
The Corvette is a supercar bargain. Heck a $70,000 Z06 runs neck to neck with the $140,000 Ford GT. This is a huge advantage for Chevy guys because as the past has shown the Camaro has benefitted from many Corvette trickle down parts. In other words the LS2 is already a mass produced V8 how much would it really cost GM to put it in a Camaro? I'll also bet my bottom dollar that the Z06's 7.0 will see it's way under the hood of a Camaro SE. The same output but far less weight than the GT500's 5.4. I was once a die hard Ford loyalist but i am not gonna lie I will consider both the Camaro and the Challenger for my next purchase if I can not find an affordible SE Mustang (i'd rather pay $35,000 for a 400HP Camaro vs a 315HP Bullitt for the same money)
Though it may not seem so, I still like the Mustang more but I like to play devil's advocate. Though this is based just on our opinions I feel that those of you who feel Chevy will outprice themselves out of the market are mistaken.
The Corvette is a supercar bargain. Heck a $70,000 Z06 runs neck to neck with the $140,000 Ford GT. This is a huge advantage for Chevy guys because as the past has shown the Camaro has benefitted from many Corvette trickle down parts. In other words the LS2 is already a mass produced V8 how much would it really cost GM to put it in a Camaro? I'll also bet my bottom dollar that the Z06's 7.0 will see it's way under the hood of a Camaro SE. The same output but far less weight than the GT500's 5.4. I was once a die hard Ford loyalist but i am not gonna lie I will consider both the Camaro and the Challenger for my next purchase if I can not find an affordible SE Mustang (i'd rather pay $35,000 for a 400HP Camaro vs a 315HP Bullitt for the same money)
You'd bet your bottom dollar that a Z06 7.0 will be in a Camaro--are you willing to bet your bottom dollar GM will sell it to you for $35k? To quote Homeboy the Clown, I don't think so.
If you like the Camaro, or Challenger better than the Mustang--I have no problem with that. Different people have different likes and dislikes--it makes the world a much more interesting place. But your assertion that you'd rather have a 400-HP Camaro for $35k than a 315-HP Bullitt for the same price, blatantly ignores a couple of facts. Neither you nor GM has determined what Chevy will charge for a 400-hp Camaro and the Bullitt MSRP is not $35K. The MSRP is $31,075, Almost $4,000 dollars less than the mythical Camaro you mention reverently.
To concede to your point of view, there will be some people who are willing to pay a premium ($4k more?) to have something new, and to have the bragging rights of 'mine is bigger than yours'. But, will there be enough to buyers to sell 165,000 units in a year (2005 Mustang)? Homey don't think so.
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. GM has more than hinted it needs the new Camaro to at 100,000 units a year to survive. As oil zooms past $100 a barrel and gas climbs to $4 a gallon. Consider this GM is poised to offer (according to you) a 400-hp 7.0L V8 in it's Camaro, in a car that will weigh as much as 3700-3800-lbs, while Ford mulls slapping a 340-hp turbo V6, which has already been designed for flex-fuel in the Mustang (under 3500-lbs). What do you think? Which one looks like a better proposition to survive the coming market?
