Thomas S

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 6, 2006, 4:56 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Please give me as many excuses as possible for getting my wife to let me get that short block!! LOL!! Dude, all I need is a good excuse.. I'm working on one right now.. Give me some time.... With my wife, I need good reasons for things!! She wont let me just spend it just to spend it.. Give me another good reason to tell my wife why I need that new shortblock with 8.8 CR!! Please I beg you!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Well, you shouldn't have to worry about blowing that shortblock. So I'd tell her increased reliability! Yeah! That's the ticket! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]

http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/SSM...CatalogVer2.pdf
Bottom of the page. I guess I shouldn't encourage you. But then, you don't really need encouraging do you?

rygenstormlocke

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 6, 2006, 4:01 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Well, you shouldn't have to worry about blowing that shortblock. So I'd tell her increased reliability! Yeah! That's the ticket! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]

http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/SSM...CatalogVer2.pdf
Bottom of the page. I guess I shouldn't encourage you. But then, you don't really need encouraging do you?
[/b][/quote]


Nice!!!! Yea, I told my wife the Ford TLOK and gears was for greater stability for rain and snow, and it had to happen before the winter.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 6, 2006, 1:01 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Well, you shouldn't have to worry about blowing that shortblock. So I'd tell her increased reliability! Yeah! That's the ticket! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]

http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/SSM...CatalogVer2.pdf
Bottom of the page. I guess I shouldn't encourage you. But then, you don't really need encouraging do you?
[/b][/quote]


Trust me Jimp! I have no intention of blowing my existing shortblock.. When and if I blow it, we will discuss it at that time.. For now, try not to be so negetive.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img] The 12 psi is not going to hurt it.. Especially when Vortech sets the tune to 10.0 as shown on the dyno of mine.. My real intention is to prove to myself that the motor can indeed hold up with 12psi as a dailey driver.. I'm not going to beat on it..

Dont worry, we'll be ok.. So lets not play word games about blowing a motor until blowing the motor makes us play one.. LOL!!

Its easier to suggest blowing the motor, than to except the fact that we actually have a good motor.. I'll just pursue my agenda, without thinking negetively.. Postive thinking Jimp..

Also, Vortech has nothing at all to do with the reliability of my car past what the stock system is capable of.. If anything should go wrong, it will be my responsibity, and mine alone.. They have not encouraged, condoned, or made me believe anything, except that they make a wonderful kit for our Mustangs.. You must understand, that all engines are not created equal.. My engine could hold up perfectly fine @ 12psi and yours may not.. Or vice versa..

So please use alot of salt with my adventure, and dont base anything I do on Vortech's awsome kit.. I have already shown you Vortech makes a darn good kit for our cars.. They should be commended for their dedication.. Their customer support rocks bigtime, and they are a very good company to have on our team..

But just remember, I am now outside of their guidlines with the 12 psi increase.. Dont listen to me.. Just watch.. Vortech recommends only 10psi..

What I do after 10psi is my responsibility! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Thomas S

Not trying to be negative here. I just happened to see that short block yesterday, thought I'd pass along the link. When you mentioned 12PSI, it made me think of that engine. I don't think you'll blow the engine. But if one of us ever does, there's an engine made with us in mind.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 6, 2006, 3:16 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Not trying to be negative here. I just happened to see that short block yesterday, thought I'd pass along the link. When you mentioned 12PSI, it made me think of that engine. I don't think you'll blow the engine. But if one of us ever does, there's an engine made with us in mind.
[/b][/quote]


I know Jimp!! In my opinion we will be completely safe with the 12psi pulley.. The trick is actually to get to 10psi quicker in the powerband... Like around 4000rpm... We are saturated with fuel on the stock tune, which I love Vortech for doing.. It just goes to show that they are way ahead of the game when it concerns our sftey..

But in 4th gear, if I can go WOT, and be at 10psi somewhere around 4000rpm to 4500rpm we should be in good shape.. Go back and look at the dyno sheets.. You can see that in 4th @ WOT there is a flatline of 10.0 A/F... This is our saftey net for pre-detonation.. I like that.. Thank you Vortech!

If we can go 10psi right after the shift from 3rd to 4th around the 1/8th marker, we can make some good ET's...

My utmost concern is the motor guys.. But please do not take my advice on anything.. Use me as we did with the fabulous Mike Bowen from PowerHouse LLC! Mike gave us the courage to have complete faith inour motors.. I am trying to do the same, but with less HP to the Flywheel..

Remember Mike took his V6 to 400RWHP SAE.... Thats 471HP @ the Flywheel SAE.. I'm not going that high, so please allow me to just show you somewhere around 400HP.. Like I said, it is my belief that we are safe for the long haul at 400HP @ the Flywheel SAE.. With 91 octane gas!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

BurntPony

12psi?

Now I think modern engines are built Ford Tough, but I wouldnt get on a personnal relationship with your bottom end, I dont think it has much of a future.

Props to you, for being ballsy!

flapjack

I'd have to agree with BurntPony. If I were you, I'd be worried about running 12psi of boost without a true intercooler. If you're going to be dumping ice in each time, sure... but your risk of pre-detonation is going to be so much higher with the extra boost... Unless you're running race fuel, that much boost will simply create more heat.

Will you blow your engine?? ...probably not. But it is really worth the risk? heck, I wouldn't even think of running 9psi without an intercooler... but that's just me.

I also have a question about your math up above. How can an aftercooler ADD psi?? Bernoulli's law states that as pressure increases, flow decreases, and vice-versa... but that only applies to fluid since fluids cannot be compressed. Air can.

Everything I've heard suggests that both aftercoolers and intercoolers reduce psi not add it. Can you clarify??

Other than that, if you adventure proves fruitful, and you don't have to run race gas (I'm assuming you'll have to your tuner hooked up to monitor in "real-time"), I'll be ordering the 11psi pulley for my ProCharger!

Sheesh... I don't even have the kit in my hands yet and I'm already talking about upgrading it!!! Keep up the good work... you are definitely pushing the envelope and we'll be benefiting. I'll keep my fingers crossed and wish you the best!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BurntPony @ February 7, 2006, 10:27 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
12psi?

Now I think modern engines are built Ford Tough, but I wouldnt get on a personnal relationship with your bottom end, I dont think it has much of a future.

Props to you, for being ballsy!
[/b][/quote]

flapjack

darn! After reading this, I'm scared to do anything to my engine!!! I'm hoping they're playing very far to the "safe side" in this write up....

http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/pdf/40SOHCTech.pdf

I'll plan on leaning heavily on Mike @ PowerHouse411's experience in this area. He's done some pretty big things to this car, and hasn't blown anything yet (except for a Ford T-Lok, which is to be expected...).

Fazm

its all in the tune [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

flapjack

I suppose it would be fine if the timing was retarded a bit.....

Too bad the handheld tuners don't allow you to do that on the fly, in the event you get some pinging during testing. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

MSP

Well, looks like the 12psi gig may be strictly for the track at this point...

First off, I have debated several things with myself.. One of which is how will 2 more psi effect the engines compression ratio..

Stock the SOHC 4.0 is 9.7:1... The Vortech kit increases this with 10psi to 13.39:1.. This of course is cooled by Vortechs Aftercooler, so it remains safe for the engine.. However, going with the 12psi will increase the compression ratio to 14.48:1.. WOW!! Race gas is certainly in order for this..

But for now, it looks like there are a few ways I can pull it off.. The quickest way would be to get some copper head shims, to sit under the heads.. This will bring it down slightly.. Another way would be dished pistons..

Now keep in mind, my original plan consisted of using it as a daily driver running 91 octane.. However, this crucial bit of info means that yes, there is a problem which could arise for the CR increase.. One of which is heat..

Ok, the first thing that comes to mind is Snow Performance, with some type of octane boosting liquid.. This would help the aftercooler cool the compressed and supercharged air even further, and also raise the octane level @ WOT!....

http://www.snowperformance.net/default.asp

I am in a state of contemplation... Exactly where I should be at this moment.!

Keep the thoughts coming guys!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

MSP

One problem is, I dont want to add any aftermarket parts to the engine in regards to a Snow Performance kit, because I am trying to test the limits of the Stock Vortech kit.. The Snow Performance can come later...


Here is a post I made on another forum that I would like to exist here is well...

In regards to the 12psi pulley, there are some things I do need to watch out for.. It may not be cut and dry, as my post may imply.. I will of course be on the dyno to see the effects in regards to knock and fuel pressure, so this is going to basically be an experiment implemented and designed to safegaurd the engine from any damage..

My inherent goal is to see if the Vortech H.O kit using the stock tuning information can indeed support a 2psi increase.. However there are many factors involved in doing it, and to be succesefull, I been informed that an 11.8 A/F ratio should not be exceeded.. The attempt of course will be done using 91 octane fuel of California.. It could get dicey, and sounds very risky, but the consensus is it could be possibly ok.. But noone knows until the pulley is on and the dyno is visited..

So off the top, it is an excersise designed to understand the reaction of the V6 computers program to the change... Without out a doubt the initial run wont consist of a WOT pull inititally, unless the A/F ratio is within tolerable levels..

Now of course introducing an SCT into the situation could help things. However, at this point the main point of interest is to understand how the stock Vortech kit for our cars is going to respond to an increase..

Its a completely grey area, the answers to which everyone is interested in.. So the 12psi daily driver is definately not set in stone at this point..

An anticipation of a Check engine light is heeded at WOT, and it may come on before 4000RPM at half throttle..

Definatley a step that could possibly be considered on thin ice.. So if we are lucky, the Vortech Program can make small adjustments on its own based on the injector size and fuel system..

It could go flawlessly, or it could demand a shutdown and retune before WOT is ever achieved.. We just dont know yet..

Wish me luck, or wish us luck! For this experiment is not just for me, but for all 2005+ V6's across the United States!

It should be noted that 400HP @ flywheel will be most likey exceeded due to the change in A/F ratio.. However, whether we can even make a full WOT pull is open to speculation and uncertainty..

Again, the premiss consist of a bolt on application.. Can the system handle a 12psi or 2psi increase over stock with just changing the pulley, or is a retune in order?

This question is one that I promise I will find an answer to..

Ok Tom from Supersix Motorsports feels I should possibly be ok with increasing the boost +2psi.. I will have to think further.. I'll post as more info or thought has come to me..

BurntPony

A couple points:

1. Have you asked Vortec about water injection?

2. How much boost are the head gaskets and head bolts going to take?

Personally, I think you are over the limit at 9psi if you want that engine to be a long term daily driver, and an occasional track car.

9psi puts an increadable amount of stress on your internals, Ford just didnt intend for those engines to be subjected to that kind of use.

We know you want to test the maximum hp limits of the 4.0, but is longevity and durabilty of any concern to you?

It is for 99% of us.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BurntPony @ February 8, 2006, 8:03 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
A couple points:

1. Have you asked Vortec about water injection?

2. How much boost are the head gaskets and head bolts going to take?

Personally, I think you are over the limit at 9psi if you want that engine to be a long term daily driver, and an occasional track car.

9psi puts an increadable amount of stress on your internals, Ford just didnt intend for those engines to be subjected to that kind of use.

We know you want to test the maximum hp limits of the 4.0, but is longevity and durabilty of any concern to you?

It is for 99% of us.
[/b][/quote]

I understand your concern BurntPony! However, Ford did intend for us to stress the motor somewhat due to the forged steel rods installed in the motor stock..

LOL! Yes, it would be quite easy for me to call it good with this kit BurntPony.. However, how would you feel later when we in time discover that the motor when tuned properly is good for 450RWHP! Or 520HP @ the flywheel? You must understand that the answer to this question has still not been answered.. I know that seems far fetched.. But did you know that a 3.8L V6 is good for 550HP @ the Flywheel with all stock internals? It is my belief that Ford intended to improve upon the V6 engine, and all the preliminary mumbo jumbo is just that.. Mumbo Jumbo! No one except for Powerhouse has even tried.. All I am asking for is 12psi or 400HP SAE @ the crank.. I'm currently at 350HP @ the Flywheel SAE.. To me 50 more HP is a very important milestone.. I wont rest until I have crossed that threshold my friend...

Its fate for me.. Its like during the day, you have a good understanding that night is coming.. You can run but you cant hide.. When night comes, it sweeps down like a blanket and smothers you until you are consumed by darkness..

Thats like me my friend, in regards to 400HP @ the flywheel.. I'm definately on my way, and 400HP can run from me on the dyno, but it cant hide.. Because I am just like the night .. I'm going to sweep down and smother 400HP like a blanket, and consume it with my darkness.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

Yes, from the day I signed the papers, and left behind the RedFire GT on the showroom floor.. The prophecy shall be fulfilled BurntPony! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 8, 2006, 3:52 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Yes you are correct Max2000Jp! However I have no intentions of ever running my car below 12.xx.. I wont even go to a track knowing that my only promised time is below 12.xx.. Its a huge waist of time.. Thats just my opinion.. All track visits by me shall be no less than 12.xx..

I mean why even go to run anything less than that? Its really puzzling to me why time is waisted on runs less than 12.xx..

With that said Max2000Jp, I know of a 2005 Mustang GT Vortech Aftercooled kit, which is sitting in a shop in Califonia in a box which is being sold for a ridiculous price.. Be nice if you were able to find out how to be the first to get it huh? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

Actually there are 2 Vortech Aftercooled Kits sitting right next to each other in a shop.. Wonder who I will select for these units.. HMMM!! Choices choices!!
[/b][/quote]

You got to the track to see what your car can do with you driving. I personally care less about dyno numbers. I've got a friend whom makes 500whp, but doesn't run too much quicker down the 1/4 than I do because he can't hook. He has a fast trap speed, but hasn't been able to reach his ET goal. When you get a chance, take your car to the track and post some numbers.

As for your last paragraph, are you giving away free superchargers, if so sign me up [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]

JeffreyDJ

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(7 @ February 8, 2006, 8:03 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">...</span>
[/b][/quote]


Ahhhhhh.... Shucks.

BurntPony

So what about the water injection?

MSP

Ok guys!! Just bought myself a DB9 serial cable, along with the appropriate PSU for the Diablo sport! Time to do some data logging, and start practicing writing tunes, based on Vortechs original..

I wont be loading any of these tunes yet, just practicing!!

The Diablo has all the software available I need to DataLOG and write tunes, on their website.. I can change all kinds of stuff.. Look!

http://www.diablosport.com/main.php

For me, my 2nd passion has always been computers.. LOL!! Thats from another lifetime.. But I still got my skills, so I will try and use it to make this DiabloSport worth something! I know I'm going to be bashing a few thinks, sending kill hits to others!.. LOL!

Nah! The stock Vortech tune is awsome.. But I need to bring everything out into the open in regards to all the settings, so that we may study and disect them together.. Whats great about this, is I can use my computer to copy the screen, in which case I can post the image for all to see, so that we can all help to understand and possibly implement changes..

So again, no flashing will take place anytime soon.. For now its going to be a complete understanding and practiced implementation.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

MSP

Man!! This is going to be a trip!! I can see all the values in realtime... I think I saw my spark at bouncing between 15 and 17 degrees at idle, and up to 24 degrees when reved.. LOL!! I diont know what the heck I'm doing.. It will be quite a long time before I can even attempt to understand this thing.. LOL!! I'm just being nosey right now, trying to understand everything.. Its a nice tool... Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to upload my logfile to the computer.. There is an option to do it, but I am getting a memory error when I attempt it.. I'll keep working on it.. Kinda wiered.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

flapjack

I know alot of guys with Avalanches use "LS1 Edit" to program their trucks. With the correct harness, you can sit in your car with a laptop and do what you're talking about.

That's what I'd love to do. I think I mentioned earlier I'm a big computer geek with a degree in programming (though I don't enjoy programming, I'm good at it).

Anything's a possibility at this point.