scrming

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 10, 2006, 3:33 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok guys!! Just bought myself a DB9 serial cable, along with the appropriate PSU for the Diablo sport! Time to do some data logging, and start practicing writing tunes, based on Vortechs original..

I wont be loading any of these tunes yet, just practicing!!

The Diablo has all the software available I need to DataLOG and write tunes, on their website.. I can change all kinds of stuff.. Look!

http://www.diablosport.com/main.php

For me, my 2nd passion has always been computers.. LOL!! Thats from another lifetime.. But I still got my skills, so I will try and use it to make this DiabloSport worth something! I know I'm going to be bashing a few thinks, sending kill hits to others!.. LOL!

Nah! The stock Vortech tune is awsome.. But I need to bring everything out into the open in regards to all the settings, so that we may study and disect them together.. Whats great about this, is I can use my computer to copy the screen, in which case I can post the image for all to see, so that we can all help to understand and possibly implement changes..

So again, no flashing will take place anytime soon.. For now its going to be a complete understanding and practiced implementation.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]


Yep... that's the funny part... Our car is so computerized I actually know more about how it works than my gearhead buddies! I mean I barely know the right end of a screwdriver... but I've been doing computer for over 25 years! LOL!

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 10, 2006, 1:49 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I know alot of guys with Avalanches use "LS1 Edit" to program their trucks. With the correct harness, you can sit in your car with a laptop and do what you're talking about.

That's what I'd love to do. I think I mentioned earlier I'm a big computer geek with a degree in programming (though I don't enjoy programming, I'm good at it).

Anything's a possibility at this point.
[/b][/quote]


Yes! I would rather data log first, and view those values.. Based on the way the Diablo works, it appears to me that you cant edit the tunes.. You must write a new tune just to change the timing.. This may not be a true statement, however I am not able to actually look at my tune for some reason... It just says (NULL) when I prompt it to show the last tune written..

It could be Vortech removed it.. Not sure.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

Or is this why people prefer the SCT?

MSP

12psi Pulley has entered the building! Wrapped in Vortech tape, and a brown box!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] Oh the excitement, such a small box, brings to such a huge world!! So much power contained in a little brown box!! Isnt technology amazing?

Well, time for my preliminary inspection!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Can anyone say SOHC 4.0 V6 with 12psi of Boost!! LOL!! Sounds good huh!! Say it again!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

flapjack

Are you really gonna put it on without the appropriate tune??

...or are you gonna put it on and drive it gently to the dyno? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

JeffreyDJ

So, are we taking bets if it'll 'Splode on the way to the dyno, then? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

MSP

With the new computer systems on the Mustangs, when using a Blower you (will) get a Check Engine light warning you to be aware first before a problem occures.. Unlike Nitrous which is basically a secret from the computer until it is sprayed.. With a Blower, the increase in air pressure if it is causing the engine any instabilities, will let you know ASAP about it.. So slapping it on before you go to the dyno is not a problem because one, no fool in his right mind would even go WOT in that circumstance.. 2, The Check engine light could come on @ half throttle or sooner if problems persist due to changed A/F ratio's which are out of reach for the computer to compensate for...

So dont worry about me guys.. I just dont like sharks in my threads.. A shark is someone that is hoping for the worst to happen to you.. We need to avoid that type of person.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

TJ06

MSP

Don't let anyone get to you, I and a lot of other people are following you and appreciate the info and video you are providing. Your S/C seems to be running very nicely with no hitches and I don’t like PM’S. Vortech is getting good PR from you on their system and you are getting info out for people considering a Vortech supercharger.

One more thing and this is just IMO at the HP your at now I don’t think that 12psi pulley will be a high percentage risk per adverse effect to your engine as long you are just testing and going easy on it and I am sure you have or are talking with Vortech on this..

Now the above 2nd paragraph is just IMO and I could be wrong.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJ06 @ February 10, 2006, 9:14 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
MSP

Don't let anyone get to you, I and a lot of other people are following you and appreciate the info and video you are providing. Your S/C seems to be running very nicely with no hitches and I don’t like PM’S. Vortech is getting good PR from you on their system and you are getting info out for people considering a Vortech supercharger.

One more thing and this is just IMO at the HP your at now I don’t think that 12psi pulley will be a high percentage risk per adverse effect to your engine as long you are just testing and going easy on it and I am sure you have or are talking with Vortech on this..

Now the above 2nd paragraph is just IMO and I could be wrong.
[/b][/quote]

Yes, I did speak with a Vortech Engineer about this, and they are fully aware.. Of course I cant say they condone anything above the stock system.. But rest assured this is not a secret @ Vortech, and they look forward to the dyno sheets..

+2 pounds is a substantial change in air volume, but not enough to damage the motor.. It could however send the check engine light into a frenzy.. Keep in mind, that right now the 10psi of boost is made by 5500 rpm.. So this means, with a smaller pulley it will just be made sooner.. More like 4500rpm...

So all values will be made much sooner than previously.. 6psi of boost will now occure at 3000rpm.. While 5psi will happen as quickley as 2000rpm.. Needless to say, you can understand how significant the research for this project is.. With the 2.87in pulley, things will start to happen much faster in the powerband.. To be exact 10psi will take place at 4800rpm..

So this is why there is an inherent concern about the check engine light..

Belial

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 11, 2006, 12:29 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>

+2 pounds is a substantial change in air volume, but not enough to damage the motor..
[/b][/quote]

Hey man, not that I'm another naysayer here, but... 2 pounds COULD be enough to damage the motor. It only takes that little extra boost to finally exceed tolerances and blow something out; none of us are sure what the cutoff here is (given that it's different for every single engine, depending on minute differences in construction, use history, etc.) I certainly hope nothing happens; I'd definitely like to up the boost on my system, so I'm glad there are other guys out there pushing the limits, but...

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Belial @ February 11, 2006, 7:51 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Hey man, not that I'm another naysayer here, but... 2 pounds COULD be enough to damage the motor. It only takes that little extra boost to finally exceed tolerances and blow something out; none of us are sure what the cutoff here is (given that it's different for every single engine, depending on minute differences in construction, use history, etc.) I certainly hope nothing happens; I'd definitely like to up the boost on my system, so I'm glad there are other guys out there pushing the limits, but...
[/b][/quote]

The concern is not the additional 2 psi of boost.. Its Whether or not the stock fuel pump and can keep enough pressure across the rails..

This in a nutshell is what discussions have been in relation to.. It is due to this pressure, that the A/F ratio could get out of hand..

The theory is, I should be ok.. The theory is since the 2005 Mustang GT, and 2005 Mustang V6 share the same part numbers in regards to fuel pumps, I should be ok...

So plainly put, if things go as planned, this could be a true bolt on application.. As long as the fuel system can supply enough fuel to the injectors.. All the cards are on my side on this, because of the Fuel pump type, which is the same as the GT Mustangs, and the 39lbs Cobra injectors..

But we wont know until the pulley is on..

flapjack

Well, it seems I have read more than a few times, that supercharged GTs need new fuel pumps, and that before they were changed out, they were constantly low on pressure.

I'm suprised Vortech didn't include an upgraded fuel pump. My kit was supposed to come with one, but when I opened up the first box I received, it wasn't in there. I have to wait until Monday to find out what's up.

Thomas S

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 11, 2006, 5:27 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Well, it seems I have read more than a few times, that supercharged GTs need new fuel pumps, and that before they were changed out, they were constantly low on pressure.

I'm suprised Vortech didn't include an upgraded fuel pump. My kit was supposed to come with one, but when I opened up the first box I received, it wasn't in there. I have to wait until Monday to find out what's up.
[/b][/quote]

Supercharged GTs make a bunch more hp. Our fuel pumps are good up until around 400hp.

flapjack

Still... I'd feel much better with an upgraded pump. Also considering the 42lb injectors. I'm not sure what size MSP's injectors are... maybe he doesn't need it.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 11, 2006, 1:55 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Supercharged GTs make a bunch more hp. Our fuel pumps are good up until around 400hp.
[/b][/quote]


Jimp is absolutley correct FlapJack!! A GT's rated power and constant HP to the Flywheel is above around 500HP... If you look at the SourceHorses Dyno sheets, you can see its capable of 467RWHP with the race tune Brad has.. This number is 537HP @ the Flywheel! It is easy to see why keeping the rails consistant on a GT is absolute for this type of Flywheel power.. It is the FWHP which is the checksum on the type of injectors used.. Powerhouse describes a few different ways for the GT to maintain a good flow across the rails using the stock fuel pump.. The Boost-A-Pump is what this is all about..

For the amount iof power our cars will generate at the Flywheel, the 2005 GT's pump is more than enough.. Also, since I am looking at 400FWHP to 425FWHP, I should be well within the capability of what the fuel pump can handle...

For us, before we need to upgrade our stock fuel pump, we need to do internals work..

I mentioned the fuel pump, because this is the only logistical barrier in which I need to overcome.. It was a conversation that had to do with the fuel system accomodating the the injectors, when the computer detects the additional 2 psi.. The computer will instantly tell the fuel pump to feed the injectors more fuel to keep the pre-programmed A/F ratio at the level its been programmed for..

So what you will notice is the engine wont really see a changed until it gets past 10psi.. At 4800RPM, the fuel system will need to supply the engine the amount of fuel to maintain Vortechs preset A/F ratio... Now, once the engine gets to this point, the additional 2psi starts to take over.. Its at this point, that unlike now, I will need more pressure on the fuel rails to supply the injectors with enough fuel to start to compentsate for the 2 additional psi... Based on the 2005 Mustang GT's success above 450FWHP+, it looks like I have a better than 70% chance of calling this a true bolt on appication.. Most of the risk has been removed with the addition of the 39lbs Cobra injectors... However, when discussing this with a Vortech engineer, his job is not to encourage anything.. His job is to speak from a stock system and engine saftey standpoint.. I respect him greatly for that... But on the flip side, I like that I was able to leave the conversation knowing that +2 psi is most likley ok, based on my fuel pump used, along with the 39lbs Cobra injectors... Watch it, is the final words.. Which means just watch the A/F ratio...

So all in all, although it seems a perilous leap of faith, its really all up to the fuel pump.. In which case, it looks like I should be home free.. But when dealing with this stuff, its best to be terribly afraid of the worst case scenario, before jumping in...

I personally dont think Procharger is going to send you anything in regards to a fuel pump.. However, if they do, it will be interesting to research the reasons why.. Could it be that they know you will have 450+FWHP? LOL!! Between you and I, I sure hope so.. That would be awsome..

I do believe however the stock GT fuel pump can handle 450+ FWHP.. I think maybe around 475 to 500FWHP is where a boost-a-pump is needed..

You could wander over to the GT side and find out.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

flapjack

Well, think what you like. Both the place I got the kit from and ProCharger say after 350RWHP you'll need either a BAP or a new pump. Otherwise, they can't guarantee you'll have a decent A/F ratio under WOT.

You're right about ProCharger not supplying the pump. Remember, only the actual supercharger and intercooler comes from them. I've already received the 42lb injectors, tuner and plugs. According to the parts breakdown, I was supposed to receive a pump, too.

Look at it from a business standpoint. Would you send off a fuel pump in your kit if it wasn't needed? Everyone's out to make a buck. Plus, they're kit is good for either the 9psi pulley I ordered, or the available 11psi one. If I wanted, I could order the pulley, and everything else would be ready. They just recommend not to do it with the stock internals. They did say they'd need to make me a new tune, though, at no cost.

Not sure if I want to board that ship, though. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

I forgot to mention. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Mike require a BAP at 400HP?? I'm not sure if he decided to add it before or after going up to 12psi... but still.

Doesn't a BAP increase fuel pressure by increasing voltage to the pump? This is akin to computer CPU overclocking, where extra voltage is applied to stabilize a higher clock speed.

If this is how a BAP works, it would most definitely shorten the life of the pump, which is why they probably just ship a better pump instead.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flapjack @ February 11, 2006, 5:06 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Well, think what you like. Both the place I got the kit from and ProCharger say after 350RWHP you'll need either a BAP or a new pump. Otherwise, they can't guarantee you'll have a decent A/F ratio under WOT.

You're right about ProCharger not supplying the pump. Remember, only the actual supercharger and intercooler comes from them. I've already received the 42lb injectors, tuner and plugs. According to the parts breakdown, I was supposed to receive a pump, too.

Look at it from a business standpoint. Would you send off a fuel pump in your kit if it wasn't needed? Everyone's out to make a buck. Plus, they're kit is good for either the 9psi pulley I ordered, or the available 11psi one. If I wanted, I could order the pulley, and everything else would be ready. They just recommend not to do it with the stock internals. They did say they'd need to make me a new tune, though, at no cost.

Not sure if I want to board that ship, though. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

I forgot to mention. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Mike require a BAP at 400HP?? I'm not sure if he decided to add it before or after going up to 12psi... but still.

Doesn't a BAP increase fuel pressure by increasing voltage to the pump? This is akin to computer CPU overclocking, where extra voltage is applied to stabilize a higher clock speed.

If this is how a BAP works, it would most definitely shorten the life of the pump, which is why they probably just ship a better pump instead.
[/b][/quote]

That makes alot of sense FlapJack.. I dont ever remember Mike mentioning a BAP on his V6 car.. Only when referring to his GT.. However, remember we only need 340WHP to be at 400FWHP.. I only want to be at 400FWHP.. Thats my goal.. We'll see what happens.. When we have these discussions, alot of it is theory.. Some of it is hope.. None of it is fact.. Thats why we wont know until the pulley is on, and dyno'd at WOT..

Also, I wasn't aware of the 11PSI Procharger kit.. Thats quite inspiring..

Be nice once you get your kit all hooked up.. I am looking forward to see the numbers.. I am curious about the 42lbs injectors as well.. We will have to see how this works out.. If there is anything significant there, it should reveal itself on the dyno sheet perhaps....

Just so you know, I am running 2 Opteron 240's @ 2.4GHZ!.. I also have a Tyan S2895.. It would shock you to actually know who I am.. But thats in another lifetime my friend.. This is about Mustangs! As it should be! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Thomas S

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ February 12, 2006, 6:35 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
That makes alot of sense FlapJack.. I dont ever remember Mike mentioning a BAP on his V6 car.. Only when referring to his GT.. However, remember we only need 340WHP to be at 400FWHP.. I only want to be at 400FWHP.. Thats my goal.. We'll see what happens.. When we have these discussions, alot of it is theory.. Some of it is hope.. None of it is fact.. Thats why we wont know until the pulley is on, and dyno'd at WOT..

Also, I wasn't aware of the 11PSI Procharger kit.. Thats quite inspiring..

Be nice once you get your kit all hooked up.. I am looking forward to see the numbers.. I am curious about the 42lbs injectors as well.. We will have to see how this works out.. If there is anything significant there, it should reveal itself on the dyno sheet perhaps....

Just so you know, I am running 2 Opteron 240's @ 2.4GHZ!.. I also have a Tyan S2895.. It would shock you to actually know who I am.. But thats in another lifetime my friend.. This is about Mustangs! As it should be! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Mike used a BAP on the V6 turbo at 12PSI. But like you said, he was making 400RWHP! He also offers a dual fuel pump as an option on his turbo kit, presumably for 12PSI or higher. I think that if you need an upgraded fuel pump it will show up on your first dyno in the upper rpm ranges.

MSP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ February 12, 2006, 6:08 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Mike used a BAP on the V6 turbo at 12PSI. But like you said, he was making 400RWHP! He also offers a dual fuel pump as an option on his turbo kit, presumably for 12PSI or higher. I think that if you need an upgraded fuel pump it will show up on your first dyno in the upper rpm ranges.
[/b][/quote]

"The Sky is Falling!"........."The Sky is Falling!"...........LOL!! Just like Scrming used to say Jimp!

We'll be ok from 400FWHP to about 450FWHP with the stock setup.. In the event things do get alittle dicey, then we can supplement it with one of these..

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/produc...fuel_pumps.html

Look at this! I just saw this on this page!

High flow in-tank fuel pumps are recommended for engines with more than 10 PSI.

On the GT I was shown how Vortech actually handles this problem.. It consist of a Y adapter between a primary and secondary fuel pump, effectively raising the pressure across the rails.. I will have to find out which pump is recommended or was used for the GT..

FlapJack can also use this type of setup...

Look at this instruction manual.. It describes how to do it...

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...s/4fu218im.pdf

Look on page 41... This is on a GT.. However, the same fuel pump for the V6 applies.. To get to the fuel pump area, you will have to remove the backseat behind the drivers side area.. That is the location of the fuel pump..

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]


Looks like Vortech is using a 255Lph Fuel pump as a secondary to the existing 310LPH stock fuel pump..

So that makes this the right part to get..

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/Mercha...ategory_Code=FC

Flapjack, this fuel system upgrade can be used by you as well.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

MSP

Well guys! Looks like the 12psi pulley installation will have to wait for awhile.. Apparently moving over 10psi of boost does have an adverse effect on the fuel pressure.. So rather than it being limited to the FWHP, it is more inline with the amount of boost..

So I would like to keep everything as safe for the motor as possible... In the beginning I was told by a technician that this upgrade took place on my car.. After verifying the information, apparently it was not.. So I have no Intank Fuel system upgrade.. You can all see why.. I really dont need one at 10psi of boost..

So I will first get the 255LPH Intank Secondary fuel pump, then proceed with the 12psi pulley install..

This is the juicy fruit of forums.. Discovery, Understanding and knowledge..

It has now come back to me about Powerhouse describing this situation in a write up he has done.. Perhaps Jimp can post a link to Mike Bowen explantion once again how boost effects fuel pressure...

It makes sense now why a Pro-Charger kit would come with a fuel pump for the 11psi kit.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

Hey Jimp, I'm looking forward to the Powerhouse write up on boost and fuel pressure.. Thanks man! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

MSP

Here is another item which is designed to enhance fuel pressure as boost increases...

http://www.capa.com.au/vortech_fuel.htm


More info on the subject.. Using a Saturn with a turbo as a foundation..

Every vehicle needs fuel to run and increasing the horsepower of your car requires more fuel. The saying, "more fuel equals more power" defiantly holds true especially in turbo applications. So, how much fuel can the stock pump provide? The answer to this question is vital to producing a reliable turboed Saturn car. Turbo cars need a larger amount of fuel than a naturally aspirated car because the additional fuel provides both more horsepower and a cooling effect which helps reduce detonation when under boost. Bosh makes the factory fuel pumps installed in all Saturn cars and information is presented below.
Pump #


Some interesting observations come to mind while looking at this data. The first is that many people tend to use raising rate fuel pressure regulators (RRFPR) which is a perfectly acceptable means of increasing fuel delivery. If you are going to turbo a Saturn car built between 1991-1996 you must be careful when utilizing a RRFPR. Here is an example that would be less than ideal.

The stock fuel pressure is 43.5 PSI. Adding 5psi of boost with a 6:1 RRFPR would net you an increase of 30 additional PSI of fuel pressure. This added to the stock 43.5PSI gives you 73.5PSI total fuel pressure under full boost. The maximum fuel pressure for the 91-96 cars is between 65-75PSI putting a big strain on the pump creating an unreliable fuel system.

Here are some tips that will help provide you with a more reliable fuel system.

Never go above 60PSI on your stock fuel pump
Remember that when you increase pressure you decrease volume
An aftermarket fuel filter, although pricey, offers less resistance and more flow through the system


Be sure that you know your cars needs and allow for a margin of error that will increase the reliability of your car.

This is just an example.. Do not use figures for a saturn for our Mustangs..