What's the BFD with IRS?
10/29/08, 10:50 PM
#461
THE RED FLASH ------ Master-Moderator
Well actually it doesn't matter if the new Camaro or Challenger are good bad or ugly, it doesn’t matter if they are equal to, better or worse. The Mustang will lose sales to the Camaro and Challenger regardless of how it stacks up against them simply by virtue of the fact that many Mustang buyers are actually Chevy and Dodge Boys who have had only one Pony Car choice, The Ford Mustang, for many years, and given the option now, they will be going back to their roots…
The fact, is no matter how many Camaro, and Dodge boys there have been in the past. Mustang has by far, had a much larger fanbase, and following. Which IMHO, will only continue to grow larger anyhow.
That being said, Mustang will continue to do just fine, even without the Chevy and Dodge boys, being along for just the ride lol.
Last edited by m05fastbackGT; 10/29/08 at 10:56 PM.
10/29/08, 11:02 PM
#462
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10/29/08, 11:51 PM
#463
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Well actually it doesn't matter if the new Camaro or Challenger are good bad or ugly, it doesn’t matter if they are equal to, better or worse. The Mustang will lose sales to the Camaro and Challenger regardless of how it stacks up against them simply by virtue of the fact that many Mustang buyers are actually Chevy and Dodge Boys who have had only one Pony Car choice, The Ford Mustang, for many years, and given the option now, they will be going back to their roots…
ABSOLUTELY VALID POINT. However a car which is dynamically superior is more of a threat to sales than one is inferior.
10/30/08, 12:04 AM
#464
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You are right, it doesnt, but thats why I said give it 400 horses. Didnt you read the post completely?
How is it that if the mustang doesnt have IRS you wont be able to drive one? Sounds like you are the one who drank the Kool ade. Thousands of mustangs are sold every month despite having an SRA. Do you really think these sales will cease to exist if it has an SRA for 2010?
What about my hypothetical test? Do you really think the average mustang or camaro buyer, without knowing what type of suspension is under the car, can tell?
How is it that if the mustang doesnt have IRS you wont be able to drive one? Sounds like you are the one who drank the Kool ade. Thousands of mustangs are sold every month despite having an SRA. Do you really think these sales will cease to exist if it has an SRA for 2010?
What about my hypothetical test? Do you really think the average mustang or camaro buyer, without knowing what type of suspension is under the car, can tell?
Nope I don't think sales will cease if there is an sra. They will be affected, likely dramatically if this is just one of the ways in which the bow tie will a measurably better car.
Yes, I absolutely think the average buyer can tell. Then again I think that because people who have driven both cars seem to be unanimous in thinking that it's night and day. I say that also because pretty much every other new car for the last several years has had irs... likely because people can tell the difference. It is decidely unlikely that car manufacturers like spending extra money on something no one will notice. If people didn't notice, I think they would go the cheaper route.
I've been driving mustangs since 1976. I used to love abusing my ls1 driving friends with my 66 fastback. But I won't drive ford just because it's ford. Ultimately, I'd love to drive a 2011 mustang. I very possibly might, especially if they address some concerns!!!
But, let me ask you, IF the camaro is considerably faster, stops better, corners better, rides more comfortably, has a nicer interior..... would you still choose mustang? I don't know if this is going to be the case with this car, but from early reports it seems like a real possibility.
If you'd still drive the mustang, OUTSTANDING. We just view things differently.
10/30/08, 06:39 AM
#465
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But, let me ask you, IF the camaro is considerably faster, stops better, corners better, rides more comfortably, has a nicer interior..... would you still choose mustang? I don't know if this is going to be the case with this car, but from early reports it seems like a real possibility.
10/30/08, 07:17 AM
#466
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I sure as hell would. For me, it comes down to much more than the sum of all the specs and performance numbers. At the end of the day, it's all about the intangible stuff, the emotional stuff for a lot of people. Call it 'Kool-Aid drinking,' if you want, but I'd pretty much choose the Mustang every time because, quite simply, it's a Mustang. IRS, SRA… whatever.
Last edited by jarradasay; 10/30/08 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Masterz dagree and stil cant speel
10/30/08, 08:43 AM
#468
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Actually you didn't touch a nerve, you did say something at least a little bit silly. Simply put irs is better for a street car. Look at the ford GT. But again a super expensive exotic. Look at the Honda Civic, All Hyundais, the FORD FOCUS, pretty much all modern cars..... How many new cars have been introduced in the last 3 years with a solid rear axle? I don't think there are many... maybe none! This isn't because it's the best stuff. I'm may be wrong on this but it's my understanding the the Last generation of F body was the last car introduced with this tech.
So first you mention another exotic, then you mention a bunch of front wheel drives? How does this clarify your point? I never said the IRS wasnt better, just that it isnt needed.
Let's be clear about the biased thing. Many journalists have driven the new camaro, challenger and the Mustang. Most of us, I suspect you included, haven't. This automaticaly gives them a more informed opinion. Not necessarily right, but more informed. To assume the solid axle is going to be found to be superior by common folks without any experience with these cars is perhapsed biased... perhapsed!
You are correct, I havent driven a camaro yet. I have driven several mustangs and several Challengers recently. But you are missing the whole point of my post! Go back and read it again!! I NEVER said the SRA was superior! I said after driving it, they WOULD'NT NOTICE that much of a difference! The reason I said, dont give it to journalists, was because they KNOW what kind of suspension each car has. I want the cars to actually speak on their own merits not someones preconceived notions.
I drive different cars every day. Why? Because I enjoy noticing the differences between different cars and how they handle different situations. It has been a passion of mine for many years. Will enthusiasts notice the difference? Yep. Will they say, definitely they want the IRS? Thats up for debate still. The question I have in my head is, will the difference be enough to warrant jumping ship?
Ford was cutting corners for the sake of keeping the cost down. The new mustang is an awesome car. I enjoy mine everyday. I have been driving primarily mustangs for 30 years. But, the truth is a flaming sword. If Chevy can put out 400 ponies, better ride and handling for 30-35k, Ford is going to lose sales. It is my hope that the next gen mustang mops up the floor with them, but given the financial realities, I'm not holding my breath.
So first you mention another exotic, then you mention a bunch of front wheel drives? How does this clarify your point? I never said the IRS wasnt better, just that it isnt needed.
Let's be clear about the biased thing. Many journalists have driven the new camaro, challenger and the Mustang. Most of us, I suspect you included, haven't. This automaticaly gives them a more informed opinion. Not necessarily right, but more informed. To assume the solid axle is going to be found to be superior by common folks without any experience with these cars is perhapsed biased... perhapsed!
You are correct, I havent driven a camaro yet. I have driven several mustangs and several Challengers recently. But you are missing the whole point of my post! Go back and read it again!! I NEVER said the SRA was superior! I said after driving it, they WOULD'NT NOTICE that much of a difference! The reason I said, dont give it to journalists, was because they KNOW what kind of suspension each car has. I want the cars to actually speak on their own merits not someones preconceived notions.
I drive different cars every day. Why? Because I enjoy noticing the differences between different cars and how they handle different situations. It has been a passion of mine for many years. Will enthusiasts notice the difference? Yep. Will they say, definitely they want the IRS? Thats up for debate still. The question I have in my head is, will the difference be enough to warrant jumping ship?
Ford was cutting corners for the sake of keeping the cost down. The new mustang is an awesome car. I enjoy mine everyday. I have been driving primarily mustangs for 30 years. But, the truth is a flaming sword. If Chevy can put out 400 ponies, better ride and handling for 30-35k, Ford is going to lose sales. It is my hope that the next gen mustang mops up the floor with them, but given the financial realities, I'm not holding my breath.
10/30/08, 09:03 AM
#471
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Right you said give it.... STILL doesn't have it. I firmly believe/hope that the 2011 model will have similar hp and maybe be lighter than the heavy chevy, AWESOME. AS per I won't be able to drive it without irs... Well I suppose I could drive it with only 300 ponies. I suppose I could drive it without air conditioning. I suppose I could drive it with a crank in front to start it.... But, ultimately I try to be objective. If Chevy makes a dramatically superior automobile for similar money, I would less than rational to chose the mustang. Does that make me a koolade drinker??? Nope, it makes me rational, logical, reasonable.... Kind of the opposite of a koolade drinker.
I was thinking pessimistic.
This forum has repetitively talked about and confirmed the mustang will receive a hp bump for 2010. All things suggest, but without confirmation, that we will receive a 5.0 with significantly more hp than the current 4.6. Do you really think that the camaro is dramatically superior? The interior looks like tupperware, the exterior, while good looks cartoonish almost. I will give judgement once I see it in person and can drive it.
Nope I don't think sales will cease if there is an sra. They will be affected, likely dramatically if this is just one of the ways in which the bow tie will a measurably better car.
Yes, I absolutely think the average buyer can tell. Then again I think that because people who have driven both cars seem to be unanimous in thinking that it's night and day. I say that also because pretty much every other new car for the last several years has had irs... likely because people can tell the difference. It is decidely unlikely that car manufacturers like spending extra money on something no one will notice. If people didn't notice, I think they would go the cheaper route.
Who are these people that have driven them? Journalists! Can the average buyer tell AND decide the SRA sucks so bad it would eliminate it from their choices? I dont think so. It will be more emotional than subjective.
I've been driving mustangs since 1976. I used to love abusing my ls1 driving friends with my 66 fastback. But I won't drive ford just because it's ford. Ultimately, I'd love to drive a 2011 mustang. I very possibly might, especially if they address some concerns!!!
Looks like no mustang in your immediate future then. If IRS is that important.
But, let me ask you, IF the camaro is considerably faster, stops better, corners better, rides more comfortably, has a nicer interior..... would you still choose mustang? I don't know if this is going to be the case with this car, but from early reports it seems like a real possibility.
There will always be a car that is better than yours. I buy a car because it does what I want it to do in a fashion that I can appreciate and admire. I couldn't care less if the camaro is faster, corners better, rides more comfortably, as long as the mustang is fast enough, corners good enough and rides comfortably. I doubt the Camaro will stop quicker because of the weight, but hopefully the mustang addresses that. The interior in the camaro is craptastic, definitely not better.
If you'd still drive the mustang, OUTSTANDING. We just view things differently.
I was thinking pessimistic.
This forum has repetitively talked about and confirmed the mustang will receive a hp bump for 2010. All things suggest, but without confirmation, that we will receive a 5.0 with significantly more hp than the current 4.6. Do you really think that the camaro is dramatically superior? The interior looks like tupperware, the exterior, while good looks cartoonish almost. I will give judgement once I see it in person and can drive it.Nope I don't think sales will cease if there is an sra. They will be affected, likely dramatically if this is just one of the ways in which the bow tie will a measurably better car.
Yes, I absolutely think the average buyer can tell. Then again I think that because people who have driven both cars seem to be unanimous in thinking that it's night and day. I say that also because pretty much every other new car for the last several years has had irs... likely because people can tell the difference. It is decidely unlikely that car manufacturers like spending extra money on something no one will notice. If people didn't notice, I think they would go the cheaper route.
Who are these people that have driven them? Journalists! Can the average buyer tell AND decide the SRA sucks so bad it would eliminate it from their choices? I dont think so. It will be more emotional than subjective.
I've been driving mustangs since 1976. I used to love abusing my ls1 driving friends with my 66 fastback. But I won't drive ford just because it's ford. Ultimately, I'd love to drive a 2011 mustang. I very possibly might, especially if they address some concerns!!!
Looks like no mustang in your immediate future then. If IRS is that important.
But, let me ask you, IF the camaro is considerably faster, stops better, corners better, rides more comfortably, has a nicer interior..... would you still choose mustang? I don't know if this is going to be the case with this car, but from early reports it seems like a real possibility.
There will always be a car that is better than yours. I buy a car because it does what I want it to do in a fashion that I can appreciate and admire. I couldn't care less if the camaro is faster, corners better, rides more comfortably, as long as the mustang is fast enough, corners good enough and rides comfortably. I doubt the Camaro will stop quicker because of the weight, but hopefully the mustang addresses that. The interior in the camaro is craptastic, definitely not better.
If you'd still drive the mustang, OUTSTANDING. We just view things differently.
Last edited by FordBlueHeart; 10/30/08 at 11:42 AM.
10/30/08, 11:38 AM
#472
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Frankly, I think the Mustang will continue to sell very well on style and bang-for-buck. While I would personally like to have an IRS, I'll stick with the Mustang, even with SRA, for these reasons alone.
The Challenger looks good, and may well be a comfortable driver, but the interior looks marginal at best. Especially compared to what we've been able to see of the new Mustang interior.
The Camaro also gets points for exterior style, with the exception of the purely subjective love it/hate it front end (which I do not like - too cartoonish, IMHO, as others have stated). And while the interior quality may be good (we'll see), the design is just too bizarre for me. Looks like a bad cross between a cell phone and a Playstation controller. May be fine for the gameboy set, but I prefer something more aesthetic and well-integrated.
The Challenger looks good, and may well be a comfortable driver, but the interior looks marginal at best. Especially compared to what we've been able to see of the new Mustang interior.
The Camaro also gets points for exterior style, with the exception of the purely subjective love it/hate it front end (which I do not like - too cartoonish, IMHO, as others have stated). And while the interior quality may be good (we'll see), the design is just too bizarre for me. Looks like a bad cross between a cell phone and a Playstation controller. May be fine for the gameboy set, but I prefer something more aesthetic and well-integrated.
10/30/08, 11:45 AM
#473
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Frankly, I think the Mustang will continue to sell very well on style and bang-for-buck. While I would personally like to have an IRS, I'll stick with the Mustang, even with SRA, for these reasons alone.
The Challenger looks good, and may well be a comfortable driver, but the interior looks marginal at best. Especially compared to what we've been able to see of the new Mustang interior.
The Camaro also gets points for exterior style, with the exception of the purely subjective love it/hate it front end (which I do not like - too cartoonish, IMHO, as others have stated). And while the interior quality may be good (we'll see), the design is just too bizarre for me. Looks like a bad cross between a cell phone and a Playstation controller. May be fine for the gameboy set, but I prefer something more aesthetic and well-integrated.
The Challenger looks good, and may well be a comfortable driver, but the interior looks marginal at best. Especially compared to what we've been able to see of the new Mustang interior.
The Camaro also gets points for exterior style, with the exception of the purely subjective love it/hate it front end (which I do not like - too cartoonish, IMHO, as others have stated). And while the interior quality may be good (we'll see), the design is just too bizarre for me. Looks like a bad cross between a cell phone and a Playstation controller. May be fine for the gameboy set, but I prefer something more aesthetic and well-integrated.
The camaro interior is just horrid though. 2010 Tupperware Playstation Edition!
10/30/08, 12:11 PM
#474
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I do like the Camaro and think it is a good representation of the retro look while still using current tech. I saw a pic earlier though, that showed the challenger and the mustang next to the camaro, it was amazing how much bigger the competition is compared to the mustang!
The camaro interior is just horrid though. 2010 Tupperware Playstation Edition!
The camaro interior is just horrid though. 2010 Tupperware Playstation Edition!
10/30/08, 01:33 PM
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10/30/08, 01:54 PM
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10/30/08, 02:39 PM
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Not so at all. Ford has many faithful who are not addicted and are not hooked. As a matter of fact I have taken a 36 year hiatus from Mustangs due to Ford missing the mark.
In my opinion, since 1971 ford DID NOT build a single Mustang worth owning until the 2003 Cobra. The 2003 & 2004 's had absolutly KILLER drive trains, but were still trapped inside what I consider very ugly bodies.
In 2005 Ford hit a home run with the new body style and vastly improved chassis. Even the V-6 is an outstanding car. But the standard 300 Horsepower GT just didn't quite get it for me. So when the GT500 showed up, there was my perfect Mustang.
I'll take the vastly better looking body and chassis of the 2005+ over the IRS and ugly body of the pre-2005 all day long. besides as we all know IRS is highly over rated.
It took 36 years for Ford to build the Mustang to get me back to my roots. But I didn't buy a GM or MOPAR pony car in the interim.
So even though I am a Ford Guy, if Ford doesn't get it right, I not buying their crap. That doesn't mean I will automatically jump on over and buy a Chevy or Dodge either...
I still have my 1971 sportsroof Torino I had in high school, and still regret selling my 1971 sportsroof Mustang. I have owned dozens of cars since then, and never bought a new what I considered a Mustang that didn't hit the mark.
Being a Ford Guy has nothing to do with being addicted or hooked. I DO NOT NEED A NEW CAR EVERY YEAR. As I have already done, I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right. Ford Guys opinions like mine better matter to Ford.
In my opinion, since 1971 ford DID NOT build a single Mustang worth owning until the 2003 Cobra. The 2003 & 2004 's had absolutly KILLER drive trains, but were still trapped inside what I consider very ugly bodies.
In 2005 Ford hit a home run with the new body style and vastly improved chassis. Even the V-6 is an outstanding car. But the standard 300 Horsepower GT just didn't quite get it for me. So when the GT500 showed up, there was my perfect Mustang.
I'll take the vastly better looking body and chassis of the 2005+ over the IRS and ugly body of the pre-2005 all day long. besides as we all know IRS is highly over rated.
It took 36 years for Ford to build the Mustang to get me back to my roots. But I didn't buy a GM or MOPAR pony car in the interim.
So even though I am a Ford Guy, if Ford doesn't get it right, I not buying their crap. That doesn't mean I will automatically jump on over and buy a Chevy or Dodge either...
I still have my 1971 sportsroof Torino I had in high school, and still regret selling my 1971 sportsroof Mustang. I have owned dozens of cars since then, and never bought a new what I considered a Mustang that didn't hit the mark.
Being a Ford Guy has nothing to do with being addicted or hooked. I DO NOT NEED A NEW CAR EVERY YEAR. As I have already done, I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right. Ford Guys opinions like mine better matter to Ford.
Then your opinion doesn't matter to ford. They already have you hooked on their version of meth. They don't need to sell you, you are already sold no matter what. For ford to survive they have to increase market share. That means they must steal sales from the competition. If ford wants to survive they have to lure people over from the other sides. This is where the majority of the comments in this particular thread come into play. For the most part we are enthusiasts. Of the few hundred thousand mustangs ford sold each year in the last few years, what percentage were enthusiasts and what percentage were people who just liked the car. Trust me, we are far outnumbered. If ford is to take sales away from Camaro, Challenger, 350Z, Eclipse, Accord Coupe, RSX, BMW 1, G35, Mini, RX8, Altima Coupe, G6 coupe, Tiburon, Scion TC, VW GTi (all classified as coupes btwn $15 and $35K competing with the mustang) then ford has to steal competitors competitive advantage. You don't do that by just selling to the loyal Mustang-meth addict.