What's the BFD with IRS?
10/30/08, 03:01 PM
#481
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Not so at all. Ford has many faithful who are not addicted and are not hooked. As a matter of fact I have taken a 36 year hiatus from Mustangs due to Ford missing the mark.
In my opinion, since 1971 ford DID NOT build a single Mustang worth owning until the 2003 Cobra. The 2003 & 2004 's had absolutly KILLER drive trains, but were still trapped inside what I consider very ugly bodies.
In 2005 Ford hit a home run with the new body style and vastly improved chassis. Even the V-6 is an outstanding car. But the standard 300 Horsepower GT just didn't quite get it for me. So when the GT500 showed up, there was my perfect Mustang.
I'll take the vastly better looking body and chassis of the 2005+ over the IRS and ugly body of the pre-2005 all day long. besides as we all know IRS is highly over rated.
It took 36 years for Ford to build the Mustang to get me back to my roots. But I didn't buy a GM or MOPAR pony car in the interim.
So even though I am a Ford Guy, if Ford doesn't get it right, I not buying their crap. That doesn't mean I will automatically jump on over and buy a Chevy or Dodge either...
I still have my 1971 sportsroof Torino I had in high school, and still regret selling my 1971 sportsroof Mustang. I have owned dozens of cars since then, and never bought a new what I considered a Mustang that didn't hit the mark.
Being a Ford Guy has nothing to do with being addicted or hooked. I DO NOT NEED A NEW CAR EVERY YEAR. As I have already done, I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right. Ford Guys opinions like mine better matter to Ford.
In my opinion, since 1971 ford DID NOT build a single Mustang worth owning until the 2003 Cobra. The 2003 & 2004 's had absolutly KILLER drive trains, but were still trapped inside what I consider very ugly bodies.
In 2005 Ford hit a home run with the new body style and vastly improved chassis. Even the V-6 is an outstanding car. But the standard 300 Horsepower GT just didn't quite get it for me. So when the GT500 showed up, there was my perfect Mustang.
I'll take the vastly better looking body and chassis of the 2005+ over the IRS and ugly body of the pre-2005 all day long. besides as we all know IRS is highly over rated.
It took 36 years for Ford to build the Mustang to get me back to my roots. But I didn't buy a GM or MOPAR pony car in the interim.
So even though I am a Ford Guy, if Ford doesn't get it right, I not buying their crap. That doesn't mean I will automatically jump on over and buy a Chevy or Dodge either...
I still have my 1971 sportsroof Torino I had in high school, and still regret selling my 1971 sportsroof Mustang. I have owned dozens of cars since then, and never bought a new what I considered a Mustang that didn't hit the mark.
Being a Ford Guy has nothing to do with being addicted or hooked. I DO NOT NEED A NEW CAR EVERY YEAR. As I have already done, I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right. Ford Guys opinions like mine better matter to Ford.
Let me pose the question this way. If the mustang added IRS and performed better and kept the same styling, would you jump to a competitor? My guess is no. But doing so may attract buyers from competitors that wont drive the mustang because of lack of IRS, performance. (playing Devil's advocate now).
Last edited by jarradasay; 10/30/08 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Restated better
10/30/08, 03:42 PM
#484
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I did not inversely prove your point
You had better reread what I posted, I did not say I jumped to a competitor, and I did not inversely prove your point.
The ONLY new vehicles I bought in that 36 years were all Fords, trucks, SHO's etc, except for a too-good-to-walk away from deal on a 1999 Toyota for my wife which had nothing to do with what Ford was offering with it's undesirable Mustangs. It had more to do with what my wife wanted, and maybe a little to do with what Ford was not offering in small 4 door commuter cars...
Like I've been trying to tell you, I'm not likely to jump to a competitor regardless what Ford does. That doesn't mean I will buy their CRAP that misses the mark, because I won't. And it DOESN'T mean I will buy a competitors car, because I am very unlikely to do that. The key here is I DO NOT HAVE TO BUY NEW CARS EVEN EVERY COUPLE YEARS.
I can drive one of the many, currently 11 Fords (of which only 2 are mustangs) I already own. Or I can buy another Ford as I have done over the years, or I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right.
As to the IRS, like I have posted before, if it could hold up to my power levels, add NO weight, and cost NO more than the current solid rear axle, I would have no problem with it. Until then the IRS offers nothing I want or need, besides IRS's advantages on 98% of the cars on the road are simply highly over rated.
The ONLY new vehicles I bought in that 36 years were all Fords, trucks, SHO's etc, except for a too-good-to-walk away from deal on a 1999 Toyota for my wife which had nothing to do with what Ford was offering with it's undesirable Mustangs. It had more to do with what my wife wanted, and maybe a little to do with what Ford was not offering in small 4 door commuter cars...
You inversely proved my point. ford didn't get it right so you jumped to a competitor who did. they changed that and you came back. What they did mattered to you. No one ever said anything about buying Mopar or chevy. As a matter of fact I listed more non mopar or chevy cars. you obviously went with something other then the mustang. And no, from a marketing stand point, you are wrong. long term, loyal customer opinions regarding future product, unfortunately, matter less then the customer you are trying to get to cross the lines.
Like I've been trying to tell you, I'm not likely to jump to a competitor regardless what Ford does. That doesn't mean I will buy their CRAP that misses the mark, because I won't. And it DOESN'T mean I will buy a competitors car, because I am very unlikely to do that. The key here is I DO NOT HAVE TO BUY NEW CARS EVEN EVERY COUPLE YEARS.
I can drive one of the many, currently 11 Fords (of which only 2 are mustangs) I already own. Or I can buy another Ford as I have done over the years, or I can wait however many years it takes until Ford gets it right.
As to the IRS, like I have posted before, if it could hold up to my power levels, add NO weight, and cost NO more than the current solid rear axle, I would have no problem with it. Until then the IRS offers nothing I want or need, besides IRS's advantages on 98% of the cars on the road are simply highly over rated.
Let me pose the question this way. If the mustang added IRS and performed better and kept the same styling, would you jump to a competitor? My guess is no. But doing so may attract buyers from competitors that wont drive the mustang because of lack of IRS, performance. (playing Devil's advocate now).
10/30/08, 03:52 PM
#485
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I didn't read it that way either. But in the modern world there is no pony/muscle car category. The mustang is a sport coupe. To which there are many entries. If ford loses him to a camaro or to G35, they still lost him. Ford has got to ditch the narrow-minded pony/muscle car category if they are going to compete with what is out there. At one time I even remember reading that ford said they are going to have to start regarding the Subaru WRX as a competitor (not that I do).
He may have even jumped to a different category entirely, but according to him ford let him go for 35 years for missing the mark. If ford can't even keep the loyal then how do they expect to win market share. This will become a huge issue in the following years, as the mustang is greeted with even more competitors into the arena. There are many americans who will flat out not drive cars that are not made by the Detroit Three. So in the Sport coupe arena the only choices in the price range are mustang or G6 coupe, maybe the Cobalt SS. Next year that Detroit Three Category will become much more competitive with the Challenger full swing and the entry of the Camaro.
Mustang can no longer rest on its haunches.
He may have even jumped to a different category entirely, but according to him ford let him go for 35 years for missing the mark. If ford can't even keep the loyal then how do they expect to win market share. This will become a huge issue in the following years, as the mustang is greeted with even more competitors into the arena. There are many americans who will flat out not drive cars that are not made by the Detroit Three. So in the Sport coupe arena the only choices in the price range are mustang or G6 coupe, maybe the Cobalt SS. Next year that Detroit Three Category will become much more competitive with the Challenger full swing and the entry of the Camaro.
Mustang can no longer rest on its haunches.
10/30/08, 03:58 PM
#486
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for most a direct competitor is a rwd 2 door w/ a v8. and aggresive cool styling. though the camaro/firebird might have had it when the mustang didn't, he didn't jump ship, but the guy can speak for himself 
10/30/08, 03:58 PM
#487
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I didn't read it that way either. But in the modern world there is no pony/muscle car category. The mustang is a sport coupe. To which there are many entries. If ford loses him to a camaro or to G35, they still lost him. Ford has got to ditch the narrow-minded pony/muscle car category if they are going to compete with what is out there. At one time I even remember reading that ford said they are going to have to start regarding the Subaru WRX as a competitor (not that I do).
He may have even jumped to a different category entirely, but according to him ford let him go for 35 years for missing the mark. If ford can't even keep the loyal then how do they expect to win market share. This will become a huge issue in the following years, as the mustang is greeted with even more competitors into the arena. There are many americans who will flat out not drive cars that are not made by the Detroit Three. So in the Sport coupe arena the only choices in the price range are mustang or G6 coupe, maybe the Cobalt SS. Next year that Detroit Three Category will become much more competitive with the Challenger full swing and the entry of the Camaro.
Mustang can no longer rest on its haunches.
He may have even jumped to a different category entirely, but according to him ford let him go for 35 years for missing the mark. If ford can't even keep the loyal then how do they expect to win market share. This will become a huge issue in the following years, as the mustang is greeted with even more competitors into the arena. There are many americans who will flat out not drive cars that are not made by the Detroit Three. So in the Sport coupe arena the only choices in the price range are mustang or G6 coupe, maybe the Cobalt SS. Next year that Detroit Three Category will become much more competitive with the Challenger full swing and the entry of the Camaro.
Mustang can no longer rest on its haunches.
You are correct that Ford hasnt had any competition really to the mustang until recently. But it still sells the most. Will it change once the camaro and challenger launch full steam ahead? Doubt it. The mustang will, as stated in this thread many times over, will beat them based on economics and range of product.
10/30/08, 04:01 PM
#488
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Since when does jumping to a competitor have to do with new vehicles?? Strange perception???
If you buy a used toyota, you still didn't buy a ford. Personally, I have only owned on new vehicle in my life. Bad Idea in my book. But I have still owned 6 mustangs. I am still a loyal mustang owner.
But if ford wants to compete they have to win market share. Market share is just that, share of the market. So does that mean they have to compete with the used car market as well. Sure as hell it does. If no one can afford to buy a new mustang then no one will.
I would love to have a 2010 or 2011 in 2010 or 2011, but I will not be able to buy one until 2013 or so when it is 2 or 3 years old. So ford has lost market share on me to the used car competition.
Ford is battling this in many ways. longer payment periods bring down monthly costs, that combined with 0% makes some new cars cheaper on a monthly scale then a used one. So they are adjusting to market conditions.
Not out to ring any bells, but short sightedness and not seeing the whole large picture is what has the Detroit Three where they are.
If you buy a used toyota, you still didn't buy a ford. Personally, I have only owned on new vehicle in my life. Bad Idea in my book. But I have still owned 6 mustangs. I am still a loyal mustang owner.
But if ford wants to compete they have to win market share. Market share is just that, share of the market. So does that mean they have to compete with the used car market as well. Sure as hell it does. If no one can afford to buy a new mustang then no one will.
I would love to have a 2010 or 2011 in 2010 or 2011, but I will not be able to buy one until 2013 or so when it is 2 or 3 years old. So ford has lost market share on me to the used car competition.
Ford is battling this in many ways. longer payment periods bring down monthly costs, that combined with 0% makes some new cars cheaper on a monthly scale then a used one. So they are adjusting to market conditions.
Not out to ring any bells, but short sightedness and not seeing the whole large picture is what has the Detroit Three where they are.
10/30/08, 04:07 PM
#490
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So to you and I, yes the only competitors would be a RWD 2 door. However, I adamantly disagree with the V8 comment. Please remember that the mustang is not a V8 car. It has an optional V8 engine, but the mustang is both a V6 and a V8 car. With low numbers for either. Most competing V6's offer comparable performance to the mustangs V8 except for low RPM torque, which even the current V8 pails when compared to those of yestyear. A competitor would have comparable hp, torque, MPG, etc.
10/30/08, 04:13 PM
#491
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Since when does jumping to a competitor have to do with new vehicles?? Strange perception???
If you buy a used toyota, you still didn't buy a ford. Personally, I have only owned on new vehicle in my life. Bad Idea in my book. But I have still owned 6 mustangs. I am still a loyal mustang owner.
But if ford wants to compete they have to win market share. Market share is just that, share of the market. So does that mean they have to compete with the used car market as well. Sure as hell it does. If no one can afford to buy a new mustang then no one will.
I would love to have a 2010 or 2011 in 2010 or 2011, but I will not be able to buy one until 2013 or so when it is 2 or 3 years old. So ford has lost market share on me to the used car competition.
Ford is battling this in many ways. longer payment periods bring down monthly costs, that combined with 0% makes some new cars cheaper on a monthly scale then a used one. So they are adjusting to market conditions.
Not out to ring any bells, but short sightedness and not seeing the whole large picture is what has the Detroit Three where they are.
If you buy a used toyota, you still didn't buy a ford. Personally, I have only owned on new vehicle in my life. Bad Idea in my book. But I have still owned 6 mustangs. I am still a loyal mustang owner.
But if ford wants to compete they have to win market share. Market share is just that, share of the market. So does that mean they have to compete with the used car market as well. Sure as hell it does. If no one can afford to buy a new mustang then no one will.
I would love to have a 2010 or 2011 in 2010 or 2011, but I will not be able to buy one until 2013 or so when it is 2 or 3 years old. So ford has lost market share on me to the used car competition.
Ford is battling this in many ways. longer payment periods bring down monthly costs, that combined with 0% makes some new cars cheaper on a monthly scale then a used one. So they are adjusting to market conditions.
Not out to ring any bells, but short sightedness and not seeing the whole large picture is what has the Detroit Three where they are.
Market share officially is based only on new car purchases. I understand your point, but the figures are based on what I just said.
10/30/08, 04:17 PM
#492
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Like anti IRS members have stated over and over, though, the ordinary people who buy the mainstay mustang don't know the difference.
So to you and I, yes the only competitors would be a RWD 2 door. However, I adamantly disagree with the V8 comment. Please remember that the mustang is not a V8 car. It has an optional V8 engine, but the mustang is both a V6 and a V8 car. With low numbers for either. Most competing V6's offer comparable performance to the mustangs V8 except for low RPM torque, which even the current V8 pails when compared to those of yestyear. A competitor would have comparable hp, torque, MPG, etc.
So to you and I, yes the only competitors would be a RWD 2 door. However, I adamantly disagree with the V8 comment. Please remember that the mustang is not a V8 car. It has an optional V8 engine, but the mustang is both a V6 and a V8 car. With low numbers for either. Most competing V6's offer comparable performance to the mustangs V8 except for low RPM torque, which even the current V8 pails when compared to those of yestyear. A competitor would have comparable hp, torque, MPG, etc.
10/30/08, 04:26 PM
#493
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You are correct that Ford hasnt had any competition really to the mustang until recently. But it still sells the most. Will it change once the camaro and challenger launch full steam ahead? Doubt it. The mustang will, as stated in this thread many times over, will beat them based on economics and range of product.
But then again the economic advantage is not as advantageous as it was in the ninties and early this century. The mustang has climbed the price ladder. I am intersted to see where they will be able to price the 2011.
But, my crystal ball is broken, so who knows. My wife tells me I'm wrong everyday
10/30/08, 04:33 PM
#494
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Are you really going to make me go out and get the data. Come on. Nissan's V6 are putting out 280-300+ HP, the eclipse pushes over 260, The new Camaro is in at 300, the accord tips in at 271. Need I go on. And please re-read my wording, I said COMPARABLE performance, comparable cars with the same performance.
10/30/08, 04:36 PM
#495
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I do see what you mean as well.
10/30/08, 05:02 PM
#496
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As to the IRS, like I have posted before, if it could hold up to my power levels, add NO weight, and cost NO more than the current solid rear axle, I would have no problem with it. Until then the IRS offers nothing I want or need, besides IRS's advantages on 98% of the cars on the road are simply highly over rated.[/quote]
Say what you will about preferring the SRA but where are you basing your 98% claim? This is simply not true! I will bet my life saving that the Camaro SS will be the better handling car compared to the upcoming Mustang! The idea of added cost is a myth. Back in 99' Ford added an IRS to the Mustang Cobra and added minimal cost to the MSRP and the car benefited a great deal.
IRS power levels? The fastest cars in the world all have them (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini...)! Look at the newest and greatest American supercar the 09' Corvette ZR1. We care talking well north of 600HP from the factory with an "overrated" IRS setup!
Say what you will about preferring the SRA but where are you basing your 98% claim? This is simply not true! I will bet my life saving that the Camaro SS will be the better handling car compared to the upcoming Mustang! The idea of added cost is a myth. Back in 99' Ford added an IRS to the Mustang Cobra and added minimal cost to the MSRP and the car benefited a great deal.
IRS power levels? The fastest cars in the world all have them (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini...)! Look at the newest and greatest American supercar the 09' Corvette ZR1. We care talking well north of 600HP from the factory with an "overrated" IRS setup!
10/30/08, 05:12 PM
#497
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Are you really going to make me go out and get the data. Come on. Nissan's V6 are putting out 280-300+ HP, the eclipse pushes over 260, The new Camaro is in at 300, the accord tips in at 271. Need I go on. And please re-read my wording, I said COMPARABLE performance, comparable cars with the same performance.
Do you really think that a mustang shopper also looks at the Nissan and Accord? Highly doubtful. The camaro, yes. The camaro isnt even in the game yet! When it does come around the mustang will shoot right back in front with its newer powertrains. Maybe the 2010 is a lame duck year with holdover powertrains. Maybe not. Nothing is set in stone about the V6 application..yet.
10/30/08, 05:17 PM
#498
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Looks like I have another marketing major on the hook. I will agree to disagree with you. Market share is the portion of the market which you poses. The sport coupe market contains all sport coupes. New and used. Foreign and Domestic. 4-6-or 8 cylinder. If ford loses sales to used cars then they have lost some of the market share they once posessed.
I do see what you mean as well.
I do see what you mean as well.
10/30/08, 05:18 PM
#499
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Yes, I wanted you to pull out the data. Do you really think that a mustang shopper also looks at the Nissan and Accord? Highly doubtful. The camaro, yes. The camaro isnt even in the game yet! When it does come around the mustang will shoot right back in front with its newer powertrains. Maybe the 2010 is a lame duck year with holdover powertrains. Maybe not. Nothing is set in stone about the V6 application..yet.
Do you really think that a mustang shopper also looks at the Nissan and Accord? Highly doubtful. The camaro, yes. The camaro isnt even in the game yet! When it does come around the mustang will shoot right back in front with its newer powertrains. Maybe the 2010 is a lame duck year with holdover powertrains. Maybe not. Nothing is set in stone about the V6 application..yet.but, personally, for what I use my Mustang for, I think I would rather have solid axle than a IRS...I take my fox to the quarter mile. While handling is always a major consideration, it doesn;t particularly matter to me. But that's just me.
Last edited by GT5088; 10/30/08 at 05:19 PM.
10/30/08, 05:20 PM
#500
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As to the IRS, like I have posted before, if it could hold up to my power levels, add NO weight, and cost NO more than the current solid rear axle, I would have no problem with it. Until then the IRS offers nothing I want or need, besides IRS's advantages on 98% of the cars on the road are simply highly over rated.
IRS power levels? The fastest cars in the world all have them (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini...)! Look at the newest and greatest American supercar the 09' Corvette ZR1. We care talking well north of 600HP from the factory with an "overrated" IRS setup![/QUOTE]
None of the cars you have listed are within a normal person's budget. It takes a lot of money to make them do what they do. We will see what the Camaro can do once it is here for all of us to drive. Until then it is only successful in benchracing.
Last edited by FordBlueHeart; 10/30/08 at 05:22 PM.