MGW short throw shifter !!!!
2/1/07, 02:41 PM
#103
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2/1/07, 07:22 PM
#105
external stops are exactly what they are EXTERNAL. they can be adjusted wrong or simply prone to vibrate loose over time. we have talked with the Tremec engineers for hours over this issue. they have told us that they see MANY more issues with the 3650 and T56 trannies being damaged due to improperly set external stops. what happens is the shifter does not go fully into gear due to it hitting the stop. then under full throttle it pops of of gear while spinning very fast. BOOMM!!! there go the ends of your gear teeth. this is called an UNDERSHIFT situation and according to tremec occurs MUCH more frequently than an overshift which bends forks.
if it were my car i would NOT put them in.
regards
george
if it were my car i would NOT put them in.
regards
george
Thanks again,
Mike
2/2/07, 03:06 AM
#107
Interest here too... 
2/2/07, 09:24 AM
#108
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i DEFINITELY prefer my own gripper **** over the "bald head phalic" factory **** but in reality i needed to make sure this design works seamlessly with the stock look and setup since alot of people are very particular about keeping it stock looking . i will be putting either a gripper or our NEW design secret **** on soon 
regards
george
regards
george
I hope the "secret" new **** is the composite race **** for the SN197's!!!
Will the same shifter work on a V6, or will you be making V6 version?
Thanks!
2/2/07, 03:39 PM
#111
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Video looks cool.... can you make a similar video with shifting under load?
The Saleen adapter that I have works extremely well, too, when the engine is off. And it works pretty good most of the time during normal operation. I've missed 3rd only once at the track since installing it. On the highway though, when I most need a good clean shift, I often miss the 5-4 downshift when overtaking a slower car.
So if you have a video of the shifter going through the gears at speed and high rpm - both going up and going down - that would be extremely useful in helping make a decision.
edit - oh yeah... I forgot to ask about the "slop" that has been mentioned. The video didn't show that the shifter eliminated it.
The Saleen adapter that I have works extremely well, too, when the engine is off. And it works pretty good most of the time during normal operation. I've missed 3rd only once at the track since installing it. On the highway though, when I most need a good clean shift, I often miss the 5-4 downshift when overtaking a slower car.
So if you have a video of the shifter going through the gears at speed and high rpm - both going up and going down - that would be extremely useful in helping make a decision.
edit - oh yeah... I forgot to ask about the "slop" that has been mentioned. The video didn't show that the shifter eliminated it.
2/2/07, 06:40 PM
#113
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Video looks cool.... can you make a similar video with shifting under load?
The Saleen adapter that I have works extremely well, too, when the engine is off. And it works pretty good most of the time during normal operation. I've missed 3rd only once at the track since installing it. On the highway though, when I most need a good clean shift, I often miss the 5-4 downshift when overtaking a slower car.
So if you have a video of the shifter going through the gears at speed and high rpm - both going up and going down - that would be extremely useful in helping make a decision.
edit - oh yeah... I forgot to ask about the "slop" that has been mentioned. The video didn't show that the shifter eliminated it.
The Saleen adapter that I have works extremely well, too, when the engine is off. And it works pretty good most of the time during normal operation. I've missed 3rd only once at the track since installing it. On the highway though, when I most need a good clean shift, I often miss the 5-4 downshift when overtaking a slower car.
So if you have a video of the shifter going through the gears at speed and high rpm - both going up and going down - that would be extremely useful in helping make a decision.
edit - oh yeah... I forgot to ask about the "slop" that has been mentioned. The video didn't show that the shifter eliminated it.
it has 2 videos. one i am shifting at fulll throttle at redline from 1st to 2nd and the car gets pretty sideways
regards
george
2/2/07, 07:36 PM
#114
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sorry... didn't see the second vid until just now. cool. I'd still like to see a quick 5-4 downshift at about 60-65mph. thanks
2/2/07, 08:36 PM
#115
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At the risk of getting a bunch of people really excited, I have to say I do not understand all this hype about the different shifters and the claims that they have made a night and day difference in smoothness and gate selection for this transmission.
Lets look at the basics. What we all call a 'shifter' is simply a lever thru a ball socket. I can tug and push on my factory stick and there is no perceptible ball socket play. There is not gate mechanism in any of these S197 shifters whatsoever either. The gate mechanism being inside the transmission case! All the 'shifter' does is allow us to rotate the selector shaft to the gate position wanted and then push the selected fork in or out. The shifter does not (nor can it) alter the path or transition between gates ... it can't, that is all decided inside the transmission. Some of the after market 'shifters' offer a stop adjustment so you can't overstress the fork ... that is the only design improvement I can see. There has been a lot of attention to make the shifter supports more rigid. So what if it moves around a little bit, your hand is what is guiding the selector shaft to the intended gate ... its all self-compensating because you can feel it. The internal detents on the fork shafts in the transmission keep you from pushing or pulling two forks in the same direction.
So what am I missing here, beside the fact some of these aftermarket shifters look cooler than the factory one.
Lets look at the basics. What we all call a 'shifter' is simply a lever thru a ball socket. I can tug and push on my factory stick and there is no perceptible ball socket play. There is not gate mechanism in any of these S197 shifters whatsoever either. The gate mechanism being inside the transmission case! All the 'shifter' does is allow us to rotate the selector shaft to the gate position wanted and then push the selected fork in or out. The shifter does not (nor can it) alter the path or transition between gates ... it can't, that is all decided inside the transmission. Some of the after market 'shifters' offer a stop adjustment so you can't overstress the fork ... that is the only design improvement I can see. There has been a lot of attention to make the shifter supports more rigid. So what if it moves around a little bit, your hand is what is guiding the selector shaft to the intended gate ... its all self-compensating because you can feel it. The internal detents on the fork shafts in the transmission keep you from pushing or pulling two forks in the same direction.So what am I missing here, beside the fact some of these aftermarket shifters look cooler than the factory one.
2/2/07, 08:39 PM
#116
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The slop that I usually talk about deals with the lateral movement that the shifter can do while in gear. For example, if I am in third, I can still move the lever left and right some, causing me to think that I was in neutral.
Also, aftermarket shifters tend to provide a "notchy" feel. Some people don't like that, but I actually do. This "notchy" feel to me is the opposite of slop, as it feels like it eliminates the "fake" feel of the factory shifter
Also, aftermarket shifters tend to provide a "notchy" feel. Some people don't like that, but I actually do. This "notchy" feel to me is the opposite of slop, as it feels like it eliminates the "fake" feel of the factory shifter
2/2/07, 08:57 PM
#117
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I am not sure how it can get to feel notchy and eliminate the side to side freedoom you describe. From what I can see so far in these kits is that the connection to the lever is standard ... so nothing tightens up there. Maybe I can't completely tell with the shifter installed in the car, but the ball socket the stick goes thru does not seem to have any axial or lateral slop. And if it did, then that would contribute to a sloppy feel.
I have been driving floor shifts since the mid 60's, and this one does not feel excessively sloppy to me. The slop that one does feel though is the cummulative looseness from the form and gate lever inside the transmission case, any radial clearance of the selector shaft, any rotational clearance where the shifter rod attaches to the selector shaft and the shifter lever and then finally the ball socket.
So the ball socket contribution to sloppy feeling outweighs all the other contributers?
I have been driving floor shifts since the mid 60's, and this one does not feel excessively sloppy to me. The slop that one does feel though is the cummulative looseness from the form and gate lever inside the transmission case, any radial clearance of the selector shaft, any rotational clearance where the shifter rod attaches to the selector shaft and the shifter lever and then finally the ball socket.
So the ball socket contribution to sloppy feeling outweighs all the other contributers?
2/3/07, 08:33 AM
#118
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allow me to put in a few thoughts.
1. as far as the function of a shifter you are 100 percent correct. all a shifter really is is a crude lever mechanism that allows the driver to select gears by pushing and pulling and moving left to right. no real rocket science here. that is why we find it odd that people always complain about how shifters make the tranny notchy. they do not. the tranny is already a VERY notchy setup. you just cannot feel it in the stock shifter for several reasons. one is the rubber parts of the shifter allow it to rise up and down and torque ALOT with the tranny thus taking away some of the notchy feel. the other is the fact that the stock shifter has the fulcrum or pivot point very close to the connection point of the shifter/traany linkage. this makes the shift throw up top much longer but also makes the mechanical leverage very good which also dissipates or spreads the notchy clunk over a longer travel so you do not "FEEL" it as much because it IS still there.
quick little project you guys should try when changing shifters out. once the stock shifter is removed grab the tranny linkage arm and just push and pull the arm front to back to pop it into 3rd and 4th. you will see that there is a VERY distinct notch or stop space in neutral . no matter how fast you pull or how smooth you pull you will NEVER get a 1 smooth pull from 3rd to 4th. so when you say a short shifter like the hurst is too notchy you are in fact only feeling the already exisiting notchiness in the tranny just amplifide because the hurst, to its credit, is one of the shortest throw shifters on the market. hurst offers very tall long handles for the driver to compensate for this and because alot of people prefer that tall look. if their shifter was the same throw as the triax and the pro5.0 which are about 3/4" longer then it would be too long of throw by the time you get the tall handle on there.
so in a nutshell the shifter issue is as follows...
stock - best feel for smoothness and hiding the "notchy" feel. bad feel for rubbery shifts, long throw and sloppiness in the shifter.
medium throw reduction (15-30 % reduction)- best for moderate reduction in throw and only increases notchy feel a minimal amount. good for the daily driver but not really the best for drag racing or power shifting.
ultra short throw ( 35-50 % reduction)- very tight shifts and fast gear changes but also much harder to shift due to decreased mech. leverage. also the notch in the tranny gates is amplifide greatly so the shifter feels notchy. of note is that most tranny forks are bent with VERY short throw shifters because the effort to pull is so great that the driver becomes used to pulling the hell out of the shifter.
beyond 50 percent is just not practical as the amount of force to put in gear will not help daily driving or speed shifting.
the MGW shifter will allow the customer to VARY the shift throw from about 15 percent shorter than stock to almost 50 percent reduction. therefore those that want a tighter feeling shifter but are not crazy about having the shortest throw on the market can set the shifter to the longer throw range . those that do not mind or actually prefer the notchy feel and want the absolute shortest throw can set the shifter to the shorter range. simple as that
also you mentioned the slop in gear. this is due to the fact that the stock shifter no longer has a centering spring in it at all. the older mustangs had a spring mechanism in BOTH the tranny AND the shifter. the new s197 cars only have a spring load in the tranny . so you have nothing to take away the slop in the shifter when the car is in gear since there is some play in the tranny linkage arm. the only companies i know of right now that have centering springs are steeda and pro5.0. the hurst does not and neither does the b&m( to the best of my knowledge). the cons of having these centering springs is that they do not allow the center shaft to rotate freely with the gear linkage arm and are a bit harder to shift. we have developed a design that offers all the pros of this without the cons.
other things that make our shifter superior over others will become very evident when it is released. it is not simply a shifter but a shift package. it will include boots, sound barriers, adjustable shift handles, etc. that will make this shifter very versatile.
regards
george
1. as far as the function of a shifter you are 100 percent correct. all a shifter really is is a crude lever mechanism that allows the driver to select gears by pushing and pulling and moving left to right. no real rocket science here. that is why we find it odd that people always complain about how shifters make the tranny notchy. they do not. the tranny is already a VERY notchy setup. you just cannot feel it in the stock shifter for several reasons. one is the rubber parts of the shifter allow it to rise up and down and torque ALOT with the tranny thus taking away some of the notchy feel. the other is the fact that the stock shifter has the fulcrum or pivot point very close to the connection point of the shifter/traany linkage. this makes the shift throw up top much longer but also makes the mechanical leverage very good which also dissipates or spreads the notchy clunk over a longer travel so you do not "FEEL" it as much because it IS still there.
quick little project you guys should try when changing shifters out. once the stock shifter is removed grab the tranny linkage arm and just push and pull the arm front to back to pop it into 3rd and 4th. you will see that there is a VERY distinct notch or stop space in neutral . no matter how fast you pull or how smooth you pull you will NEVER get a 1 smooth pull from 3rd to 4th. so when you say a short shifter like the hurst is too notchy you are in fact only feeling the already exisiting notchiness in the tranny just amplifide because the hurst, to its credit, is one of the shortest throw shifters on the market. hurst offers very tall long handles for the driver to compensate for this and because alot of people prefer that tall look. if their shifter was the same throw as the triax and the pro5.0 which are about 3/4" longer then it would be too long of throw by the time you get the tall handle on there.
so in a nutshell the shifter issue is as follows...
stock - best feel for smoothness and hiding the "notchy" feel. bad feel for rubbery shifts, long throw and sloppiness in the shifter.
medium throw reduction (15-30 % reduction)- best for moderate reduction in throw and only increases notchy feel a minimal amount. good for the daily driver but not really the best for drag racing or power shifting.
ultra short throw ( 35-50 % reduction)- very tight shifts and fast gear changes but also much harder to shift due to decreased mech. leverage. also the notch in the tranny gates is amplifide greatly so the shifter feels notchy. of note is that most tranny forks are bent with VERY short throw shifters because the effort to pull is so great that the driver becomes used to pulling the hell out of the shifter.
beyond 50 percent is just not practical as the amount of force to put in gear will not help daily driving or speed shifting.
the MGW shifter will allow the customer to VARY the shift throw from about 15 percent shorter than stock to almost 50 percent reduction. therefore those that want a tighter feeling shifter but are not crazy about having the shortest throw on the market can set the shifter to the longer throw range . those that do not mind or actually prefer the notchy feel and want the absolute shortest throw can set the shifter to the shorter range. simple as that
also you mentioned the slop in gear. this is due to the fact that the stock shifter no longer has a centering spring in it at all. the older mustangs had a spring mechanism in BOTH the tranny AND the shifter. the new s197 cars only have a spring load in the tranny . so you have nothing to take away the slop in the shifter when the car is in gear since there is some play in the tranny linkage arm. the only companies i know of right now that have centering springs are steeda and pro5.0. the hurst does not and neither does the b&m( to the best of my knowledge). the cons of having these centering springs is that they do not allow the center shaft to rotate freely with the gear linkage arm and are a bit harder to shift. we have developed a design that offers all the pros of this without the cons.
other things that make our shifter superior over others will become very evident when it is released. it is not simply a shifter but a shift package. it will include boots, sound barriers, adjustable shift handles, etc. that will make this shifter very versatile.
regards
george
2/3/07, 11:19 AM
#120
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Hi George,
I have noticed the notchiness in the stock shifter although it is very well masked. You bring up some very good points and I am impressed enough that I think I will wait to see what you bring out. What is the time frame and price range that you are looking at? And does the shifter have any kind of assist to reduce missed third gear shifts? One of my biggest beefs with the Hurst aside from the notchiness is that it got “lost” just like the stock shifter when moving from 5th to 3rd. This is very frustrating when you try to quickly down shift when attempting to pass a car. Often, it is very hard to find a gear when this happens and you search around until you finally get the shifter back into 5th about which time you can no longer pass as you have lost too much momentum.
I noticed you are over in Augusta, GA. I would love to drive over and check out the shifter when it is ready. Do you think I could test drive it in your test car?
Thanks,
John
I have noticed the notchiness in the stock shifter although it is very well masked. You bring up some very good points and I am impressed enough that I think I will wait to see what you bring out. What is the time frame and price range that you are looking at? And does the shifter have any kind of assist to reduce missed third gear shifts? One of my biggest beefs with the Hurst aside from the notchiness is that it got “lost” just like the stock shifter when moving from 5th to 3rd. This is very frustrating when you try to quickly down shift when attempting to pass a car. Often, it is very hard to find a gear when this happens and you search around until you finally get the shifter back into 5th about which time you can no longer pass as you have lost too much momentum.
I noticed you are over in Augusta, GA. I would love to drive over and check out the shifter when it is ready. Do you think I could test drive it in your test car?
Thanks,
John