It's one thing to attack a tinpot dictator in an oil rich nation under false pretenses, but when the real players come out to wreak havoc, Bush turns *****.

 

Let me remind you of some things.

Feel free to click on all links.

http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kos...s/destruction/

 

Yep. But I think 2k7gtcs covered that already. And I think that at some point, America needs to stand up and march to the RIGHT cause for a change.

And as I said before, Georgia is an ally. If America stays home and allows Russia to destroy it, two things happen >>

1) Nobody will believe in America as an "ally" ever again.
2) Russia and other nations will lose all respect left for the United States, and step up other aggressive actions with impunity.

 

Now Bush is "demanding" that Moscow end hostilities. But unless he backs it up with a couple of carrier battle groups and by training ICBMs at Russia, it won't mean sh*t.

It's time to move to DEFCON 3, IMO, even if only to send Putin a clear message.

 

Georgia started this mess. And they bit off much more than they expected. As long as they (Georgia) continue to shell that region, then the Russians, have every right to keep on pushing. I don't care if they are an ally, they were the aggressors, and were doing a nicely orchastrated cleansing of that region. I know a full escalated war is certainly not the answer, but the US should stay out of it. Meaning Bush should shut-up. Let NATO, the Euro's and the UN do their thing, to bring about a stabilization. The US government should have learned by now that we are not the Globe's SOS call. Sure it is evident that Russia wants the oil back, but Georgia seems not to care about that issue any longer. Those regions separated from them for a reason, and sought Soviet help and citizenships. Russia was right to blow them out of those regions, and further to stop their ability to do it again. It is Georgia that need's to take the lead and offer a surrender of agreement with Russia in order to stop the further spread of the warring area. Russia is not going to back down to any one, let alone outside westerner's. Living in Georgia was not as one would have hoped the supposed Democracy would have provided. The Georgian government is a evil as the rest of them. Their onslaught on the eve of the Olympic Games against that region, should have told the rest of the world that.

 

Onslaught?!?! I think you're buying Putin's propaganda, my friend. His war against Georgia is part of [his] grand strategy. Putin cares no more about a few thousand South Ossetians than he does about Kosovo's Serbs. Claims of pan-Slavic sympathy are pretexts designed to fan Russian great-power nationalism at home and to expand Russia's power abroad.

 

I am sorry but South Ossetia is in Georgia, belongs to Georgia, and everyone else in the world agrees to that. The Russians have no business sticking their nose in Georgia's business.

What if northern Mexico decided it wanted to be free of Mexico. And Mexicans were killing North Mexicans and Bush said to the North Mexicans that they could be citizens of U.S. and we would help them against Mexico. When Mexico marched in to claim their rightful territory and the U.S. responded by invading Mexico and killing women and children with tanks in streets, then I believe we would be as wrong as Russia is now.

It is Georgia's land and Georgia's people, Russia can use the propaganda of helping the South Ossetians from 'ethnic cleansing', but they are only using that as ploy for the continued expansion of Russian imperialism. They (Putin and ruling parties) are very, very afraid of real democracies where people truly have a choice of who to vote for. They are especially afraid of this when it happens next door to them. They hate 'free press' and will stifle it as do the Chinese at every oppurtunity. Russia is out for global economic and political domination, this is step 1 of many, many more. There will always be an excuse for Russia's actions.

 

Well, the reality is that Putin has been determined to stop and, if possible, reverse the pro-Western trend on his borders. He seeks not only to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO but also to bring them under Russian control. Beyond that, he seeks to carve out a zone of influence within NATO, with a lesser security status for countries along Russia's strategic flanks. It is Russia that has precipitated a war against Georgia by encouraging South Ossetian rebels to raise the pressure on Tbilisi and make demands that no Georgian leader could accept. If Saakashvili had not fallen into Putin's trap this time, something else would have eventually sparked the conflict.

Bottom line: Putin engineered this whole bloody thing. Does anybody here believe for one moment that he didn't sanction the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko? He was brazen enough to order that assassination right on British soil. That's the kind of autocrat he is.

 

+ INFINTY!!!

Hollywood, you get it...too bad I think we are the only two who do.

 

Russia needs to know when to quit, and if they can't figure that out on their own they may indeed need a helpful 'suggestion' by the US and NATO to get the point. That said, I think we have to be prudent here because the truth of the matter is that Georgia ****** up. I've closely followed this region since my college days and all of my old colleagues and former Professors whom I've e-mailed on the subject feel the same way. First, South Ossetia has a large population of Russians within it and had Russian military boots on it's ground when Georgia decided to invade.....both providing Russian with an excuse to retaliate the second Georgian forces crossed the border. (indeed, Russia would do well to remember that we have boots on the ground in Georgia right now as well) Also, explaining why Georgia deserves to be independent from their large Russian neighbor is obviously more difficult to do when Georgia doesn't want to extend that consideration to South Ossetia. Invading South Ossetia militarily seriously diminished Georgian credibility in this previously 'cold' conflict and the Russians know it.

Yes, Russia without question baited a trap the Georgians readily fell into, but the sad fact is that the Georgians were amazingly dumb enough to bite the carrot so obviously being dangled in front of them to no good end and now why are paying the price for that short sightedness. Just as amazing, Russia's demands thus far have actually been surprisingly reasonable, with the only worry being whether or not they actually intend to honor the terms of an agreement once struck. (actually being realistic and simply wanting to appear realistic are two decidedly different things......and as Russia is never reasonable this bit of the scenario worries me quite a bit.) I think we should put pressure on Georgia to accept Russia's terms, and then put NATO boots on the ground to make certain Russia honors their commitment.

Turning to the comments on Iraq. First of all, everybody has to decide whether or not they believe WMD's were there for themselves because the truth of the matter is that we were effectively assured that we were never going to get proof of the same when we basically told the Iraqi's when we were going to invade and then sat around and waited for them to get rid of the evidence. It's like banging on the door of a meth lab, announcing that you are DEA, telling them they have one week to come out or you are coming in, and then wondering where the drugs went when you actually go through the door.

I have personally spoken to an Iraqi General who confirmed what I predicted would happen the day we announced plans to invade, the weapons were transported to Syria who was happy to get them. (in fact, two former Iraqi Generals have come forward and stated this) Why this surprises anybody is a mystery to me. I've often heard folks question the validity of these claims questioning why two men who admittedly despised Hussein would so thoroughly try to protect him in this way.....the answer should be obvious. They weren't protecting Saddam, they were protecting themselves. Correct or not they genuinely thought that they were going to hang if those weapons were discovered in the possession of forces under their control or perceived to be under their control. They were also afraid that if the weapons were still in Iraq at the time of the invasion they would be employed leading to needless death and obviously increasing the likelihood that their fear of hanging could become a reality. Indeed, it is my understanding, given what I was told by General Sada, that Saddam did give the order to use chemical weapons...not understanding that there were no chemical weapons left to use.

All of that said, I always felt going into Iraq under the banner of ridding the country of WMD's was a mistake both because it was too easy to get rid of the evidence and because there were better reasons. The unending abuse of the Kurds has given us more than enough reason to invade Iraq and depose it's government nearly since the Ba'athists first came to power. Unfortunately the Kurds apparently don't make for good news, so most folks just don't care.

Sorry for the hijack, but it needed to be said. We will now return to your regularly scheduled program.

 

Your points on Iraq are well stated jsaylor and I agree also. But I don't think that Georgia should be forced to allow 70,000 South Ossetians freedom. Let them repatriate to Russia, but the land and assets belong to Georgia. How many 70,000 person republics can we take if everyone gets to be free from their "oppressive" representative democratically elected government. Hell my town of 70,000 could establish independence from U.S. if its all right by ya'll. I mean I see the federal government as 'monetarily cleansing' my wallet of my money. I just can't see Georgia handing over South Ossetia, but it looks like that is what they will be forced to do.

 

I actually agree with you, and would have supported such an idea as plausible before Georgia invaded. Unfortunately, I think Georgia chose the wrong time to wage the right fight.....and I think that has put both them and the United States in one H*** of a pickle. Sometimes youth leads us to do stupid things for good reasons, I suppose this situation proves that nations aren't excepted from that particular shortcoming.

 

Well, I'm not going to open up a debate on the fiasco that is the Iraq war. Most educated people now understand the score on that - but this situation with Russia has the potential to be MUCH more serious comparatively. And in this situation I believe America needs to stand up and understand that it isn't about Putin worrying for a few separatist malcontents, it's about his larger strategy. And that strategy includes not wanting to be surrounded by pro-Western democracies.

Now, to be fair, America committed a major foreign policy gaff by pushing for a missile defense shield in Poland. Putin had every right to be upset about that, just as we wouldn't want to see a Russian missile defense system in Cuba (again) even if the Russians assured us it was to protect them against some Latin aggressor in South America (assuming for a moment that there were one). Call it Russia's version of the Monroe Doctrine, one we ought to respect.

That being said, this thing with Georgia cannot stand. And for those who cling to the idea that it's just Putin coming to the aid of separatists in Georgia, the proof will be in what he does next; whether he continues his aggressive attack on Georgia and tries to topple the government. If he does, then "protecting separatists" will be incontrovertible evidence of a ruse...and his larger strategy.

If America allows this to happen, its slide towards being a second-rate power - which, sadly, I believe is already underway - will accelerate.

 

Looks like the show's over. Russia has ceased its aggressive behavior...for now.

 

edit - no dog in this race

 

Sounds like something happening soon if now the big pipeline shut down & bush calling everyone or his advisors.

 

Man that is irritating, not that I don't want it to stop, but WTF?? "Oopsie, after 1800 people are dead, we changed our minds"???!! Nice.

 

Show is over for now. This is how tyrants work. Take a little, see what the enemy does and what world response is and then wait to do a little more later. It's only a matter of time. Now Georgia must walk a tight rope while Russia just looks for any reason to invade that world opinion would support or be indifferent to.

 

How about a baby seal? would that be less objectionable? I also agree as well except my statement was to drill a pipeline in the ocean through a humpback whale! Just get us off foreign dependence.

 

I say we nuke Russia, China, Iran, North Korea...



... and Hawaii.