Dan

Someone FINALLY has it all out of their system. Looks like people really took the topic to heart.

Decipher

lol. It was all out of my system a while ago, I just had to repeat myself for the people who didn't read the whole thing. So, to end the thread off, here's a great quote from my Mayor.

"Can someone be a car lover and work to reduce green house gas emissions at the same time? I think so. I love my vintage MGB, but I leave it in the garage most days and rely on the City of Vancouver's state-of-the-art hybrid, a Toyota Prius, to do my official duties. My dream car? A sero-emissions convertible sports car with room for my dog and a fold-down seat for my fishing gear."

Mayor Larry Campbell
City of Vancouver

I suppose this can be locked now or whatever, then forgotten about.

hdwrench

well as far as mpg goes... i have been driving a rental dodge neon for the last few days while my jetta was in the shop. This piece of work had 1/2 a tank of gas when i picked it up. after 1 and 1/2 trips to work aprox 150 miles it was empty. if this is what i can expect from a gasoline 4 cylinder then i think ill just stick with my jetta diesel and get twice the mileage for half the cost. maybe there is no v8 or even gas engine in my future................

ok gas for the hd.

mustang_sallad

seeing this poll here definitely convinced me to convert over from stangnet.com. i simply don't belong there. my first post was a book about why ford should make, and everyone should buy, a hybrid mustang. It generated some interesting discussion until mod killed the thread. i couldn't believe it. and then i was all set to repost the thing here, but then i got lazy, so it didn't happen.
I'm not gonna post it here, since this thread seems to be on its way out anyways.
I didn't bother reading the whole 15 page thread, i'm assuming it got a little off track. I don't even know all that much about IC hydro engines, i only remember hearing about a fleet of 7 series out in europe a year or two ago.
I've spent a lot of time rambling about hydrogen cars, and i usually end up saying pretty much the same thing... whether its fuel cells or ICEs or something else, hydrogen basically acts as a store of energy. we can't really mine the stuff until we get some kind of interplanetary pipeline thing going, so we can only get hydrogen gas by putting energy into other things, like water. So we put energy into the water and get hydrogen (grade 10 science, ELECTROLYSIS YA!) and then we take the energy out of hydrogen by combusting it and turning it back into water.
So we have to generate the electricity to make the hydrogen in the first place. If beautiful, compromise-less hydrogen cars suddenly took over the world right now, we probably wouldn't be much better off, simply because most of the electricity we generate comes from burning fossil fuels in the first place (GO HYDRO QUEBEC!). Untill cleaner and renewable-er methods of generating electricity become more widespread, we gotta work on making these gas engines as efficient as possible (GO HYBRIDS!).
Decipher, its encouraging to see i'm not alone... an environmentally and socially conscious fella' who can't seem to shake some inner, hypocritical lust for big, loud, over-indulgent, fast cars. well thats me anyways. I'm 20, studying mechanical engineering at mcgill, aiming for a minor in environmental eng. man, your city gets the olympics and creates widespread funding for cleaner transportation. My city got the olympics back in the 70s and spent a billion dollars on a monstrous stadium that falls down every once in a while.

anyways, as it stands, i could never justify owning a mustang. I like that quote of your's of the mayor of vancouver. i'm just hoping that some day, having a nice ride won't have to be associated with poisoning the place that we live in. I mean, those sword guys back in the day have pretty nice horses, i bet you could have some fun souping those things up good. My bike's a sweet ride too, and i don't worry about what kind of harm i'm causing while i'm riding it. Some day i figure cars can be like that too.

YES! my vote tipped the scale!
Thanks for letting me join, i think this site seems a lot cooler than others i've visited.

Decipher

Welcome to the boards!

I don't know if it's really hypocritical to love cars. I break it down to what I like about them. I like the style, the sound, and the speed. Every single one of those can be attained without gasoline.

As for whether it would make a difference or not, it most definitely would. The vast, vast majority or air pollutants have come from, and are coming from automobiles. Yes, a lot of power plants use gas too, but lets put it this way:

With gasoline, you're burning it to get electricity anyways, you're burning it to refine it, and you're burning it in cars, etc.

With hydrogen, you're burning more gasoline to get electricity, but not as much, therefore you burn less to refine the gas, and you're not burning off anything in cars, etc.

Yeah, it's a little simplified, but the gist is there.

This thread may "be on it's way out", but if there's more to say, by all means, say it. Post your book in here or in it's own thread, go ahead. The moderators won't shut you up for speaking your mind if you're not breaking any rules.

Again, welcome.

Robert

Too bad the RAV vote went down, Decipher. We need that North-South train route to YVR, especially with the games coming in 2010.

mustang_sallad

yeah, i guess the situation would probably improve a good deal if we switched over to hydrogen right now. But really, before we invest in converting cars to that kind of technology, we should first concentrate on producing clean electricity, closing down all those thermal energy plants.
At this point, burning all the fossil fuels in one centralized location and sending hydrogen gas out to burn in all the cars would have its pros and cons. For one thing, it would concentrate all the pollutants into one area, as opposed to having a city saturated with cars and their exhaust fumes. That would be beautiful for the people living in the city (tell me you get those smog warning days out in BC too, its really not pretty) but pretty bad for anyone living downwind of the plant. overall, i don't see why gasoline would be consumed any less though, since the cars would still be traveling about the same distance (maybe more though, since people would feel they're not killing things by driving) and therefore about the same amount of energy would be used. You just have to figure out which would be the most efficient way of getting that energy to the people. A single plant might be more efficient in burning fossil fuels than a bunch of cars. Transporting liquid hydrogen is probably a lot more costly than transporting gasoline though, since you'd need a heavily reinforced and insulated tanker.
Whatever, you could analyze that stuff till the cows come home, basically, i'm saying that if there is any benefit from switching over to hydrogen powered cars at this point in time, its not gonna be a big one. We've gotta be able to make the hydrogen in a clean way first before we put millions of hydrogen eating cars on the road. That would cause a huge increase in demand on the power industry, and i don't think they could handle that at all right now. Give us a couple years to build up wind farms, hopefully lower impact hydroelectric damns (i know they've got a lot of small scale hydro projects out in BC, that's cool stuff), solar arrays, and tidal generators (ya! basically generating electricity from the kinetic energy of the moon!). Then role out the hydro mustangs and altimas and so forth.

On another note, i love the sound of nice cars, loud mustangs just sound so cool. But then i think of how the sound scape in a city is completely dominated by the sound of internal combustion engines. I'd gladly give up the beautiful roar of a v8 for a world of cars that don't make noise when the go by. I think it would be awesome to smoke guys at a drag race without making a sound besides the squealing of tires.

hippy

The boost you get from 'nitrous' is due to oxygen. It's nitrous oxide, which basically means your pumping in air with a higher concentration of oxygen than found in the atmosphere.

hippy

Also we can't just switch to hydrogen ICE cars. Nobody will buy a car that cannot be fueled. Politics does not have anything to do with our dependence on oil, it has everything to do with consumers. Stop screaming at the president and take responsibility for your own actions. If this group is so concerned with saving the planet, because we'll all drown in our own smog in the year 2025, then why is anyone here a mustang fan? Want to show the major auto players you're serious about alternative fuels? Don't buy their fossil burning monsters. To me this whole thread smacks heavily of hypocracy, "Bush is the devil because he went to war with Iraq, imagine what could have been done with the 96 billion if they had spent it developing a car that I wouldn't buy!" I also love the, "everyone who doesn't have a muscle car should switch to some alternative fuel, because it's ok for us to use petrol, but screw johnny commuter". Recently I was in seattle, at a very yuppy, earth hugging soccer mom outdoorsy mall. I'm sure they all hate Bush as much many of you here, and want to hug trees. The parking lot was filled with GIGANTIC SUV's, 2 Porsche Cayennes and an MB Gelaendewagen in addition to the usual toyota landcruisers and other assorted gas guzzling b!tchmobiles. I think this will be my last post, as enough people in this thread have become dr. science and proposed solutions that obviously solve the world's energy problems, and clearly show that the only problem is that republicans, dependant on oil are somehow causing us to buy large, gas guzzling cars, and our only hope is to vote in some ******* who will raise taxes, take all my guns away, and force me to drive an earth friendly car. Here's a fun fact, I was told by a VERY liberal professor that the only way to meet future energy demands in this country is to either burn more coal, or build more nuclear power plants. He also claimed that covering Texas in solar panels would provide enough juice to keep L.A. up and running. Anyway, I'm sure we can all buy new mustangs, and still **** and moan about our oil dependancy, without being whiny little hypocritical female doghes.

hippy

Note on language filter, there is no such thing as a female dog. Dog is a male canine. It's like having a baby, and saying to your friends "This is my new baby boy, isn't she beautiful", because you find the word girl offensive and refuse to use it.

Also, this will now be my last post as I hadn't anticipated the problem with the filter.

Decipher

I'm glad it was voted down. It shows that our municipalites have the guts to stand up to Gordon Campbell's tyranism. Yes, we need the RAV, but it wasn't part of the 2010 bid, so it's not needed "for the games". I support the RAV idea, but Cambie is too beautiful of a street to tear up. The Arbutus corridor already has rails, it's got the space, but becuase it's where the "rich" people live, the government is too chicken becuase the rich people don't want it there and *gasp* may not support their campaign funds. Plus, Arbutus would have a more direct route to the airport, and durrr that wouldn't make sense.. Another problem with it was that it wasn't going to go into Richmond, and only go the airport. By having it go into Richmond ridership would double as nobody in their right minds would haul their luggage around on and off a light-rail train.

A great site comparing the two:
http://www.savecambie.org/avc.htm

Anyhoo...

Decipher

Mustang_sallad and hippy.. Some good points there, but just because we want the switch to start now wouldn't mean it would be overnight. It will take a few years. Yes, there are no stations, but there will be in the future, and I agree, don't buy a car you can't fuel. The question at top of the thread is a little misleading. It's more a question of whether you support the idea of hydrogen powered vehicles rather than "Would you go out and buy a hydrogen powered mustang if they were available?" I would vote no too if that were literally what it meant. But hey, I didn't start the thread, so I have no control over that sort of thing. Let's not take everything here so literally, look at the big picture and use some common sense. No idiot would buy a car he can't fuel, but if that fuel were to become available in the not to distant future, with all it's benefits and advancements that the extra time has allowed to be developed, I bet that same guy would buy one no questions asked.

twincamfxd

Hey Decipher, I saw a show on that car in your avitar. I beleive it's called the Hy-wire? Awesome. What more could a person want in a car. So roomy, it is almost a truck. Do you have any more info on it?

Robert

I'm glad it was voted down. It shows that our municipalites have the guts to stand up to Gordon Campbell's tyranism. Yes, we need the RAV, but it wasn't part of the 2010 bid, so it's not needed "for the games". I support the RAV idea, but Cambie is too beautiful of a street to tear up. The Arbutus corridor already has rails, it's got the space, but becuase it's where the "rich" people live, the government is too chicken becuase the rich people don't want it there and *gasp* may not support their campaign funds. Plus, Arbutus would have a more direct route to the airport, and durrr that wouldn't make sense.. Another problem with it was that it wasn't going to go into Richmond, and only go the airport. By having it go into Richmond ridership would double as nobody in their right minds would haul their luggage around on and off a light-rail train.

A great site comparing the two:
http://www.savecambie.org/avc.htm

Anyhoo... [/b][/quote]
I agree fully that it should go down Arbutus - though it's doubtful they could use the existing railroads. They'd have to hoist it above ground.

And yeah, too bad about those along the Arbutus corridor - the corridor ain't that grand anymore anyway, IMHO.

As to Richmond, I agree it should service Richmond with a branch to YVR, otherwise, it's too limiting for all that effort.

But that's all academic. Once voted through, my understanding is that it would have gone down Arbutus anyway, because Cambie makes no sense logistically or engineering-wise.

Decipher

Here's a few links to info on it. It's a beautiful car, no? I saw that show too, I believe. Was it the one with Alan Alda on PBS?

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/
http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/200...view/gm-hywire/
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hy-wire.htm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive...hy_wire_hybrid/


And Robert, I don't know if you watch Citytv with "Rafe's Rants", but he summed it up best. The project was doomed from the start due to how the NPA royally screwed up translink and created a system where the public have very little say in anything. Score -1 for democracy. It's almost as bad as the highway upgrades in Horeshoe Bay. These Olympics will be a mixed blessing at best.

Mods: Sorry about the off topic business, but The links above are relevant, and if you really stretch it, the Olympic upgrades here are related in that part of te plan includes to have the entire Sea to Sky Highway (the road from Vancouver to Whistler) equiped with Hydrogen Fuelling stations and have fleets of Hydrogen powered cars and buses transporting people to and from whistler along it.

ManEHawke

I was happier with the hydro-focus on that PBS special. I personally wouldnt want car's like the hy-wire.

Decipher

It's all a matter of opinion. Everybody's entitled to their own.

Horsepower844182

I agree...how come anything that is powered by an alt. fuel has to be some far out design...why can't they make conventional cars?

ManEHawke

Thats exactly how I feel. While the technology is awesome I really would miss traditional driving, feel, sound, and everything else the hy-wire did to change the driving experience. I don't see something like that making it in the roads for a while.
I wanna fix and tune my car as much as possible. I do give props to the designers regardless, it's just not what I would like done with hydrogen.

Galaxie

I agree as well...

the civic hybrid, escape and upcoming Lexus are the only ones that don't look like a spaced-out bubble car. The Insight and first-gen Prius looked so out of place. The same thing goes for a GM EV1. People like my parents wouldn't think of buying cars like that. Putting the hybrid drivetrains in regulars cars is how you will attract the mainstream.