JessicaRabbitt

Looks like this thread is taking a ugly downward spin. I am not closing it, YET. Lets see if we can get back on topic.

I know you all can do it, be nice, stop the name calling, and chill out people!

I swear I am going to give everyone Valium, this week has been crazy!

daveyramone

We need to change the topic to something more calming like politics!

GottaHaveIt

Oh yah like our Primier Going to Hawaii and getting a DUI Now that's funny and it is also politics !

GottaHaveIt

Sorry Valium Humm I'll have to pass Jessica and go with the
Pacifier ( Movie ) my son wants to take me to see a Vin Disel movie tonight :shock:

Purple Hayz

Well you won't know those things until after you run the tag...
[/b][/quote]

The point he is making is appallingly simple. How and/or why you are failing to grasp it is beyond me. Cause precedes effect; it does not VALIDATE effect. This is a basic paradigm of causal inference. If no stimuli is provided, no response occurs. Period. Applying this logic to the aforementioned scenario, the stimuli (i.e. some form of infraction, like speeding) must be established PRIOR to the response (running his plates). If no such cause has been established, then no effect can follow.

Now pay attention. You cannot use evidence of the cause discovered AFTER the fact as an a priori justification for executing a response in the first place. :nono: Doing so is a classic example of circular reasoning. If the point is still lost on you, consider the following vignette:

Cop: Tell us why you shot your wife, Bob.

Bob: She was cheating on me.

Cop: And how did you know that, Bob.

Bob: She admitted it to me…….right after I shot her!

Purple Hayz

Your point would be far more relevant if it were true (and believe me, I wish it were!). I am unaware of any state other than Vermont that does not permit cops to run plates for any reason whatsoever, even no reason at all.

Purple Hayz

Nonsense. He has every right to be angry, as do any of us who are asked to fork up a driving tax at the behest of those institutional peons that some call “police officers.� Before you (any of you) burst a blood vessel, this is NOT an indictment of the character or integrity of cops (particularly those that have honor and integrity), but merely a social commentary reflecting the fact that police, at BEST, do little more for society than “enforce� the written codes of others.

“Law enforcement� is a shamefully crude proxy for the enforcement of morals or values. History has shown this to be so. 250 years ago, a cop could arrest you for freeing a black slave, which would have been considered property theft at the time (in some states, punishable by death no less). 40 years ago, a cop could arrest a mixed race couple for committing the “crime� of marriage (16 states had anti-miscegenation laws on the books in 1967, e.g.). Cops in Alabama would have been able to continue doing so well into the 21st century (black/white marriage was not legal in Alabama until November of 2000) had it not been for that little matter of Loving v. Virginia 1967 (cheers to our friends on the Supreme Court for enlightening our Southern friends…….AGAIN). All of these hypothetical arrests have the common element of being heinously immoral yet entirely consistent with the legal enforcement of the “law� during these times. For additional examples, and a few good laughs, check out the following link http://www.dumblaws.com/laws.php?site=laws&cid=184

Which brings me to this little issue of “speeding� aka the driving tax. I’m going to make this very simple. There is no, and I repeat, NO positive correlation between speed limits and traffic fatalities. If anything, the most credible scientific evidence available suggests that the relationship may be NEGATIVE, i.e., slower speed limits actually increase traffic accidents, due the unreasonably large deviation from the nominal traffic flow. As usual, this not my opinion, but rather a summary of the facts (we’ll discuss my sources in a minute.) B)


For those of who aren’t big fans of comprehensive studies and multi-million dollar federal investigations, I’m sure I can come up with a few cute anecdotes for you. How bout that old timer that slaughtered 9 people last year when he confused the gas pedal for the brake. Police estimate he was going no more than 25-30 mph (story here)

Better yet, explain to me why the collision rate on the unrestricted German autobahn is less than half that of Chicago’s Dan Ryan Expressway (I94 from the Loop to 95th), which has a posted speed limit of 45 mph?

But I digress; for every isolated example I can come up with, some of you will surely cling to some “speed kills� story of your own. For some of you, these stories are both personal and (regrettably) painful. For others, you might actually be a Cop, and therefore have a professional interest in sticking to a position, even if that position is complete and utter B.S.

Now for those of you who ARE big fans of scientific evidence, I suggest you reference FHWA-RD-92-084 (U.S. Department of Transportation 1992). The conclusions I’ve posted above are taken nearly verbatim from that study, the executive summary of which can be found online if you are diligent enough. Identical conclusions were reached using the Montana data, which had indirectly set up an ideal social experiment (and resultant scientific analysis) during a brief repeal of posted speed limits during the late 90s.

Now that we’ve disabused you of any asinine notions like “speed limits save lives!� or “cops enforce the speed limits for your protection!� let us turn from such nonsensical drivel and ask the question of just why our dear old “Boys in Blue� continue to extract our hard earned dollars from our pocketbook. Anyone care to post the statistics on the amount of revenue generated from traffic citations every year (RRRoamer you were on to this it seems)? Anyone care to enlighten the forum with an estimate of just how many of these backwater ****-ant towns would slip into financial insolvency without ticket revenues. Or would you like to let me continue having all the fun? New Rome, anyone? :angry:

“For a half-century, this village of 60 people has harvested a run-down, one-fifth-mile stretch of U.S. 40 near Columbus for millions of dollars in traffic fines. In good years, police bring in more than $400,000, more than 90% of town revenue. Nearly all of the money goes back into the police force.� USA Today 2003

Enough for now.

RMac

?


Well... if I've noticed anything since I've had my bright red Mustang...

EVERYONE notices my car wherever I go.

So, based on that fact alone, I assume that I'm more likely to get clocked/pulled over/whatever...

...and that's fine. I didn't exactly buy a Torch Red 2005 Mustang to go unnoticed. You should know that these cars are going to attract attention, but good and bad.

Just goes with the territory.

(and man... I had to turn my brain on to read through those last few posts Purple Hayz... I think I need another beer).


And I do agree in general with your point regarding speed limits. It's all about context and control to me. Higher speed limits on the highway would likely not cause an increase in fatalities - it's pretty difficult to run into someone driving straight ahead. It's the morons trying to weave in and out of traffic on crowded roads causing a lot of the problems (on my way home a few minutes ago, two idiots were racing down a four lane road, weaving in and out of traffic, cutting people off, brighting everyone... needless to say, I got off that road as fast as I could).

SixtySix

Kinda like the entire State of Louisiana

smitty

I was going to post a similar reply as Purple Hayz (albeit, not as eloquent). I have wondered for a long time why, as vehicles have improved, speed limits have not been raised to reflect those improvements. Then I thought about the fact that if they raise the speed limit for me, they have to raise it for everyone else, too. Think about all the folks you drive with on the roads in a typical day. Now think of them all driving alot faster.

What we need in this country is a culture change in regard to our driving habits. They can drive greater speeds in Europe because, for the most part, they observe the left lane laws. This one change, I am convinced, would make travel on our interstates much more efficient.

This will never happen here, though, because we live in a culture of "entitlement." "I'm entitled to this spot in front of you while driving my large suv while talking on my cell phone, and so what if you want to go faster and can't see around me. Why are you frustrated with me? I'm just trying to validate my pathetic existence anyway I can. After all, you shouldn't be going that fast anyway. Don't you know it's dangerous? The National Traffic and Highway Safety Administration told me so and I believe everything they tell me. That way I don't have to be bothered with thinking for myself."

FrankBullitt05

Wow, lot's of great points made on this thread...

I do think the major problem with speeding in the States (in particular) is our culture. We couldn't at the moment have anything like the Autobahn because of that 'sense of entitlement.' In fact, in Illinois, there is a law that states you can only pass in the far left lane on the toll/hiways (which, of course, no one cares much for, as several people drive from the 'burbs to the city entirely in the left lane) but the LEOs have started busting people for this (as well as for driving below the posted speed limit!)

Flipside, though, I have seen instances were an officer has been a bit overzealous...as when a bright red Mitsu Evo (the ones with the basket handle on the trunk) was making a left turn and squealled the tires at the apex. The squad car sitting in the left turn lane on the opposite side of the intersection, punched the lights and immediately pulled the guy over. At the time, I had my black Jetta and I wondered if I had done the same thing, would it even had been noticed?

And then there is the case where the city council lowered the speed limit on North Aurora Road from 45mph to 40mph after the city had determined the average rate of travel was about 42-43mph. A few of the council objected, but it still passed...

Edit: And a little light reading...FHWA-RD-92-084

It really is quite interesting 8)

treymdaisy

[SIZE=7]I enjoy following cops around. Not in a manor to break the law r anything, but just to c what the heck they do all day. I also like to park on side of them while they are waiting for people to speed by. It's very intertaining. I only speed if i know there are no cops around, usually on a friday or saterday night about 2:30 in the morning. The cops are out patrolling the main streets and clup areas of my town. And have lots of friends look out for me helps a lot. In about 3 to 4 weeks, as soon as my baby is broken in a little, I'm going to try for the 120 mark . Now I know doing this on a 2 lane street would be insane. Many people abuse the fact that at 2 a.m. with no other cars on the road. That is when you will be busted. But as for cops following me, they have only done it twice. While on I-10 the limit was 70 so I was doing about 75, not too bad. Well the cop was following me for about 4 miles. The limit would soon drop down to 55 b/c of a town ahead. Well I knew this, and I garentee the cop knew this. As we approached, he dropped of a little. :scratch: Hummm.... Then it came..... the buzzing of my radar ditector. Hahaha. Maybe he should've waited. Rite when he hit me, I hit my brakes. Slowing down to about 50. My radar ditector stayed lit up. About 3 seconds later, as we were passing the 55mph sign, he catches up to me as to pull on side of me. Just then I flash him the 55 signal with my shift hand. He smirks and pulls ahead of me. For the next 30 miles I follow him, being sure to stay at least 2 seconds behind him. Untill finally he exits. I just don't like cops :notnice: ....... I think it's in my blood are something.

Cthulhu

I am astounded - this topic has become one of the most intelligent discussions I've ever seen on the internet. Purple Hayz this is one of the best argued cases I've encountered - if you aren't an ACLU lawyer, you ought to be. I'm libertarian, and I feel that anything a person wants to do, as long as they don't hurt anyone, they should be allowed to do. I will give cops a better standing than peon, simply bc they do stop violent criminals, in addition to enforcing the many other laws I find completely unreasonable. as far as speeding goes, I've read a number of the cases you've cited, and agree wholeheartedly with you. As it almost always is, the US is just behind the greater European nations socially. The autobahn is the prime example of this. Are there any states that currently have no speed limits?

OBleedingMe

My two cents:

Well, we're the idiots who keep voting them in, these people who impose these speed limits and laws we're all complaining about. If this issue was made known and politicians started losing elections over it, we would see a change in the laws. This is how change is effected in America (at least the with the common folk) - through issue-raising and voting.

On a side note, I do not feel that America is behind Europe socially. And to call them "greater" nations is laughabe, especially being that they must combine all of their countries economic efforts to beat our dollar in the world market. Sort of like a bunch of skinny punks ganging up on a very well-trained green beret soldier... eventually, you get enough skinny punks they can rip that green beret limb from limb. I find it most amusing that they need basically an entire continent's power to equal America's economic powers. Just think of how much more powerful they would be if they used our system of economics. They just can't swallow their pride.

We, America, pioneer the space industry, and continue to stay at the forefront of cutting-edge technology in every arena. Most European companies that thrive in "high-end" products (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, certain Swiss/Swedish rollercoaster companies) earn most of their revenue from the Untied States. We are the producers, the defenders, and the best this world currently has to offer.

Europe can afford to be smug when they know that the Americans will bail them out of nearly every situation their "high moral ground" values will get them into. In fact, it's not much unlike a spoiled child who will abuse/break his toys because he knows Mommy and Daddy will buy him new ones. This analogy can be applied to Canada and Mexico as well. I, for one, say we finally let this child break his toys and learn their value.

Cthulhu

1. please explain to me how technological advancement means the same thing as social advancement. just bc we can build a rocket doesn't mean our society is any better - just richer and with more resources.
2. I'm not the idiot that keeps voting them in - I vote libertarian in a desperate attempt to get rid of the ppl we have in office, and as soon as I'm able to, I'll be moving to Europe (I'm an opera singer, so I need to anyway), and will be glad to drive the autobahn.
3. wtf are you talking about? we aren't bailing europe out of anything! the Euro is worth well more than the dollar, the foreign market is doing just fine, and the last time I can remember us saving europe was WWII. are you still trying to call in favors from 1944?

the "social experiments" in Europe have in many ways put ours to shame. I won't delve into it as I'd like to keep on topic of driving safety/driving law reform, but if you want me to get into it, feel free to PM me

P.S. - I like your sig, by the way - thats one of the best E.A. Poe quotes I've seen

stoic21

in the famoyus words of Ron White, that is profiling and profiling is wrong
[/b][/quote]

Yeah i wish i had though of that.

EleanorsMine

Last night I was going out to dinner, and all the soccer moms were on the road...
Needless, I have gotten a little ballsy in my little Mustang..I was cruising around 85 in a 70 to pass them and I notice brakes on ahead of me, I slow down to around 75, and notice in the median- a state trooper running radar with his LIGHTS OFF! This was around 7pm. Sneaky, and no I didn't get caught. State troopers in Alabamas favorite trick.

Speed traps are the main thing that tick me off.
I know of two- one in a yeeha town where the speed limit changes every mile and another TWO where the speedlimit on both sides of the road do not match up. The cop simply sits on the side of the road with the lower speed limit and busts you- my husband got his last ticket in that.
I have also noticed, in the big towns where money is generated by businesses,and are well populated there are not so many police running radar.

farmerjohn

That settles it, the FOP decal goes on the Mustang.
PS - "Americans" - please remember that those who live in Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Panama, Columbia, and every other nation in North, Central and South America are also Americans. But, being called a United Statesian does sound a bit wierd.

John
(Native American)

poldrv

I think we are a little off the topic. The original author of this topic is upset that he got a ticket. My response is get over it and do not speed in the city areas. I think its time we got back to discussing the intent of this site which is the production of the 2005 V6 Mustangs and the 2005 GT Mustangs as well as mustangs of the past.

daveyramone

As I've stated before, it was not the actual ticket that upset me, it was the technique used by the officer to give it to me. I hope I don't need to spell this out anymore.

Purple Hayz: excellent post!