Watts to think?
3/8/11, 06:55 PM
#41
Bullitt Member
Join Date: February 12, 2011
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, we offer it as well as being able to get most of the "good" suspension products out there. Cost is 695.00 to your door anywhere in the U.S.
Here's a link:
http://www.silverhorseracing.com/car...ategory_id=256
Here's a link:
http://www.silverhorseracing.com/car...ategory_id=256
Thanks.
3/8/11, 07:22 PM
#42
Mach 1 Member
Join Date: January 14, 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 583
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3/8/11, 11:36 PM
#43
There's also some good books on the topic, mostly older books like the one from Puhn, Smith, and others which cover the fundamentals, as all the relevant tech has not changed. Suspension designs have not changed drastically in quite some time, the watts-link being around for at least 50 years that I am aware of at this point.
Weight... It's physically heavier than the PHB setup by about 15-20 pounds at most if I had to guess. But... the majority of the weight is static mass, not sprung, and the better control of rear roll center and geometry it creates is worth the weight. Also, the stock PHB is filled with shot, so it's not as light as the comparable links used on the watts, and the watts cradle is hollow square-tube, which isn't heavy.
FWIW, our #93 race car was ~150 Lbs. heavier than the car that came before it, and was ~2.5 seconds a lap faster out of the box at it's first race than the old car ever was. Mostly due to better chassis / cage design allowing for a much better platform for the suspension to work from, since the suspension was identical at the start to the old car. So sometimes, a little weight isn't so bad if it is added for the right reasons, and not added to rotating / sprung mass, which normally is a bad thing. And finally, the weight is low and to the rear of the car, somewhere a Mustang can normally gain a few pounds and not be worse off for it, compared to say high and to the front, forward of the front axle.
** ON EDIT **
The video shows the griggs setup, which is nice, and has nice arm length, but.. the center moves with the rear axle, which is different fromt he Fays arrangement which has a fixed pivot (stays with the chassis). So this video is applicable only if you are going with a "floating" pivot (not the best worded description for it, but hopefully clear when watching the video).
** Double EDIT **
This Link while not perfect, does help to show the differences between a PHB and Watts setup, although I would not describe a PHB to be as "bad" as this video shows it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8cJCqWkfgk
Weight... It's physically heavier than the PHB setup by about 15-20 pounds at most if I had to guess. But... the majority of the weight is static mass, not sprung, and the better control of rear roll center and geometry it creates is worth the weight. Also, the stock PHB is filled with shot, so it's not as light as the comparable links used on the watts, and the watts cradle is hollow square-tube, which isn't heavy.
FWIW, our #93 race car was ~150 Lbs. heavier than the car that came before it, and was ~2.5 seconds a lap faster out of the box at it's first race than the old car ever was. Mostly due to better chassis / cage design allowing for a much better platform for the suspension to work from, since the suspension was identical at the start to the old car. So sometimes, a little weight isn't so bad if it is added for the right reasons, and not added to rotating / sprung mass, which normally is a bad thing. And finally, the weight is low and to the rear of the car, somewhere a Mustang can normally gain a few pounds and not be worse off for it, compared to say high and to the front, forward of the front axle.
** ON EDIT **
The video shows the griggs setup, which is nice, and has nice arm length, but.. the center moves with the rear axle, which is different fromt he Fays arrangement which has a fixed pivot (stays with the chassis). So this video is applicable only if you are going with a "floating" pivot (not the best worded description for it, but hopefully clear when watching the video).
** Double EDIT **
This Link while not perfect, does help to show the differences between a PHB and Watts setup, although I would not describe a PHB to be as "bad" as this video shows it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8cJCqWkfgk
Last edited by SilverHorse-----Racing; 3/8/11 at 11:42 PM.
3/9/11, 09:44 AM
#44
Bullitt Member
Join Date: May 3, 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If anyone is feeling hardcore, you can drop 2lbs off the Fays2 with the billet version:
http://www.shelbystore.com/Shelby-Wa...s5m-5649-m.htm
http://www.shelbystore.com/Shelby-Wa...s5m-5649-m.htm
3/9/11, 09:56 PM
#45
I am happy to make the following correction from earlier in the thread...
While Griggs was / is in Chapter 11, they are still open and selling products to customers. So while we are not a dealer of their products, if you're interested, they are an available option. Glad to hear they're still going, Bruce and his group put out some very nice products, and they have been, and continue to be a company we refer customers to when looking at "real" suspension components to upgrade their Mustangs.
And for the record, nobody asked us to post this - I just did some follow-up homework as I hadn't heard anything about it in a couple months since hearing the initial news, and wanted let everyone know the good news of a fellow American manufacturer. I felt bad that I was posting outdated information, as it's not our style. Hopefully they will sort out their financial affairs and keep it going, as I consider them one of the few companies that make suspension products that I'd trust on my own car when my butt is on the line.
While Griggs was / is in Chapter 11, they are still open and selling products to customers. So while we are not a dealer of their products, if you're interested, they are an available option. Glad to hear they're still going, Bruce and his group put out some very nice products, and they have been, and continue to be a company we refer customers to when looking at "real" suspension components to upgrade their Mustangs.
And for the record, nobody asked us to post this - I just did some follow-up homework as I hadn't heard anything about it in a couple months since hearing the initial news, and wanted let everyone know the good news of a fellow American manufacturer. I felt bad that I was posting outdated information, as it's not our style. Hopefully they will sort out their financial affairs and keep it going, as I consider them one of the few companies that make suspension products that I'd trust on my own car when my butt is on the line.
3/10/11, 08:11 AM
#46
Bullitt Member
Join Date: January 18, 2010
Location: Woodland Park, CO
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
That's a very 'stand up' post, MC.
Somebody mentioned the cost-benefit of doing the Watts if you aren't doing real driving. How about the 'peace of mind' benefit? There are a lot of us out here that spend money on our cars to make them better, not just because we need to, but because we want to. Does anyone on here own a 52" flat screen just because they needed one?
Somebody mentioned the cost-benefit of doing the Watts if you aren't doing real driving. How about the 'peace of mind' benefit? There are a lot of us out here that spend money on our cars to make them better, not just because we need to, but because we want to. Does anyone on here own a 52" flat screen just because they needed one?
3/10/11, 10:13 AM
#48
If the position were reveresed, I would only hope for the same treatment... and if there is any way to help a fellow U.S. manufacturer that actually makes a good product, I'm all for it, even if I eat a little crow in the process.
This is true, and I was who mentioned it - mostly because it's a rather large cost to some of our customers for a benefit that they may or may not notice if they are not "using it". When I used to be on the "customer" side of the equation, nobody ever asked me what I was doing with the car, intended use, etc.. so they all were just happy to make a sale - I spent way too much money on things that were not applicable to my intended use that way (this is in the pre-Internet days). I'd rather have you spend money that you'll really notice, and if you're not driving the car into corners aggressively, it is a "smaller" improvement in the overall dynamics of the car compared to some other initial upgrades people normally do. On the Boss though it's going to be difficult to go the route of "normal" upgrades that people immediately notice, like springs, shocks, bigger brakes, etc.. because a lot of that will be in play already from the showroom, so maybe this is your first upgrade piece for the suspension. Of course, we also have "bolt on" SLA front ends with 3-way adjustable Penske C/O setups, rear penske C/O kits, and other neat tricks that can take the car to an even higher level, but again, I try to temper suggested upgrades with intended use to match the best "bang for the buck" for our customers.
Somebody mentioned the cost-benefit of doing the Watts if you aren't doing real driving. How about the 'peace of mind' benefit? There are a lot of us out here that spend money on our cars to make them better, not just because we need to, but because we want to. Does anyone on here own a 52" flat screen just because they needed one?
3/19/11, 01:44 PM
#50
Bullitt Member
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
watts link
I started my autocross with a 3.8L Mustang. The 7.5" rear had no option for a torque arm and most watts Links attached to the 8" Diff cover. Needless to say the rear control was horrible. The Fays2 Watts Link does not attach to the Diff cover. I installed the Fays2 Watts link and it made a world of difference in auto crossing. Of course there was a huge amount of room for improvement to start with. I'm sure the Panhard installed on the Factory Boss will be a good start. I am likely to add the Watts link at some point but it totally screws up your Autocross classification. If I end up tracking the car a fair bit, I will definitely add the watts link.
1/14/12, 01:03 AM
#52
Bullitt Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was just talking to someone the other day about this. I don't know of anyone who runs one. However all the people I talked to think it will improve the handling on track. In for any realworld experiences on the Boss.......
1/14/12, 01:00 PM
#54
Shelby GT350 Member
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I actually never installed it. I sold it after my first track day testing the stock suspension. I was so impressed with the stock Boss suspension on the track last year that I left it all alone with the exception of the MM c/c plates. I'll most likely install the new FRPP Boss springs when they become available, but that will probably be it. A friend of mine in a modded GT is running the Fays 2 and likes it. As I said before, I'm not messing with what Ford did on the Boss until someone with a modded suspension passes me on the track. Then I'll take notice, but until then I'm running with the one that brung me. As the East German corner worker said to me at BIR last year after passing all the Porsche's in the experienced run group "Thees car ees monster".
1/14/12, 07:12 PM
#57
Bullitt Member
Join Date: October 19, 2011
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cloud9
Yea it was pretty cool since it was a Porsche club event and I had the only American car there 
Well for me, I found that its a bit loose for the tighter tracks and autox. The looseness wasn't as noticeable on the faster track at wsir. I just ordered some h&r rss. I hope to compare the time differences at the streets of willow this month, which I have a good set of times to compare. If they don't go down at all I'm pulling it off....
1/15/12, 03:31 AM
#59
Bullitt Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with Gary on this one. I think the stock system is very good, and I will more than likely just get the FRPP springs when they come out....assuming they work on an LS as well???
However as it has been proven on EVERY platform imaginable it can be made better.......for a specific use. Ford gave us something that works very well with a wide range of use. However a drag racer (I know...blasphemy) has different needs than a road racer in all sorts of areas (brakes, suspension, gearing, motor, etc). You can absolutely improve the handling performance of a stock Boss. The question is what is the value ($$$ vs seconds)?
On my first trip to VIR I did a 2:14.9 (I did that only once....) with a mostly stock LS (R6's, and MM cc plates). Literally everything else is completely stock. A very good friend of mine was doing 2:11's in a 302s (on a different day). He is an experienced driver.....an instructor. Dean Martin (and a few other's in the Pirellit Ultimate Track Car Challenge) have wheeled a 302s to a time of 2:02's. This is all on the Full Course. It is probably safe to say a Pro driver could easily shave off 5 seconds (probably a lot more....I am nothing special). So the stock LS is probably 8 or probably less seconds slower around VIR Full Course (3.27 miles) that it's full blown big brother racecar the 302s. So how much does it cost to be as fast as a 302s??? Just suspension, hood, and wing on the 302s is around $9000 in parts....
However as it has been proven on EVERY platform imaginable it can be made better.......for a specific use. Ford gave us something that works very well with a wide range of use. However a drag racer (I know...blasphemy) has different needs than a road racer in all sorts of areas (brakes, suspension, gearing, motor, etc). You can absolutely improve the handling performance of a stock Boss. The question is what is the value ($$$ vs seconds)?
On my first trip to VIR I did a 2:14.9 (I did that only once....) with a mostly stock LS (R6's, and MM cc plates). Literally everything else is completely stock. A very good friend of mine was doing 2:11's in a 302s (on a different day). He is an experienced driver.....an instructor. Dean Martin (and a few other's in the Pirellit Ultimate Track Car Challenge) have wheeled a 302s to a time of 2:02's. This is all on the Full Course. It is probably safe to say a Pro driver could easily shave off 5 seconds (probably a lot more....I am nothing special). So the stock LS is probably 8 or probably less seconds slower around VIR Full Course (3.27 miles) that it's full blown big brother racecar the 302s. So how much does it cost to be as fast as a 302s??? Just suspension, hood, and wing on the 302s is around $9000 in parts....
Last edited by adam81; 1/15/12 at 03:33 AM.
1/15/12, 06:27 AM
#60
Mach 1 Member
What's the weight of the Fays2 Watts Link? With my car weighing in at 3430lbs+ already, maneuvering may be increased with having the watts link installed but powering my land boat with even more extra weight is still going to be slowing me down more on straight aways..?