What's the BFD with IRS?
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Explain how am I arguing both sides, since I believe I am being very clear here.
And I really don't know what to say to you if you don't believe a v8 is inherently better than a v6. I mean you got 2 extra cylinders as well as more displacement (in general). Mind sharing an example of why a v8 isn't a better platform overall. Again, I thought what I said was quite clear but apparently you aren't getting it (although you are right abouut the bolded part).
And I really don't know what to say to you if you don't believe a v8 is inherently better than a v6. I mean you got 2 extra cylinders as well as more displacement (in general). Mind sharing an example of why a v8 isn't a better platform overall. Again, I thought what I said was quite clear but apparently you aren't getting it (although you are right abouut the bolded part).
Truthfully, I dunno if that's always true for every application in all situations.
As to strictly whether or not a V8 is a "better" performance choice, I guess that's a bit subjective. For example, the twin-turbocharged V6 in the Nissan GT-R will blow the doors off the supercharged 5.4L V8 in the Shelby GT500, AND with less horsepower to boot.
So, so much for that argument.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
I think we're having two separate conversations here, and I guess my point got lost in the melee while you were trying to assert your own.
Fine.
You seem to be suggesting that somehow the media is responsible for Ford and GM's self-inflicted wounds because they are biased towards imports. Is that the gist of what you are saying?
While I agree that the media have been tough on domestic automakers in years gone by, a lot of it was deserved. But be aware that Toyota and Hondas recalls have definitely been covered by the mainstream media - along with other import brands - in some cases stretching back as far as 1989:
Tundra recall
Lexus LS400 recall
Honda recalls minivans, suvs
Honda Accord recalls
Mercedes recalls suvs
Those are but five examples of MANY where the mainstream media entities have reported on the problems with import manufacturers. You seem to think that the tail wags the dog in this situation. Nope. The evidence - if you choose to look for it - shows that that's largely urban legend. So your hypothesis just doesn't stand up when conducting unbiased research.
Moreover, NBC is happily flogging the Mustang on Knight Rider and the new Camaro on My Own Worst Enemy. This is more than just sponsorship or product placement, these vehicles are an integral part of the storyline. So much for mainstream media and their corporate owners "hating" on North American vehicles.
Blaming the media for the woes of Ford and GM is a bit like using "the dog ate my homework" argument - a clever way to deflect personal responsibility.
Umm...not really sure how to respond to that. Are you asking me to talk more stupider?
Fine.
You seem to be suggesting that somehow the media is responsible for Ford and GM's self-inflicted wounds because they are biased towards imports. Is that the gist of what you are saying?
While I agree that the media have been tough on domestic automakers in years gone by, a lot of it was deserved. But be aware that Toyota and Hondas recalls have definitely been covered by the mainstream media - along with other import brands - in some cases stretching back as far as 1989:
Tundra recall
Lexus LS400 recall
Honda recalls minivans, suvs
Honda Accord recalls
Mercedes recalls suvs
Those are but five examples of MANY where the mainstream media entities have reported on the problems with import manufacturers. You seem to think that the tail wags the dog in this situation. Nope. The evidence - if you choose to look for it - shows that that's largely urban legend. So your hypothesis just doesn't stand up when conducting unbiased research.
Moreover, NBC is happily flogging the Mustang on Knight Rider and the new Camaro on My Own Worst Enemy. This is more than just sponsorship or product placement, these vehicles are an integral part of the storyline. So much for mainstream media and their corporate owners "hating" on North American vehicles.
Blaming the media for the woes of Ford and GM is a bit like using "the dog ate my homework" argument - a clever way to deflect personal responsibility.
Umm...not really sure how to respond to that. Are you asking me to talk more stupider?
As far as Knight Rider and My own worst enemy, I would call that paid advertising, not the news media.
As for your vocabulary, how many people in the real world use ignominy in a sentence daily? It sure sounded to me like you were just trying to prove how smart you are and how much above this whole thread you think you are. If not, I apologize, maybe in your circle of mustang friends, you do use that type of language.
As far as personal responsibility, I very much believe in that and hate how it has become common in our society to blame other people for our problems. My point was that it isnt as bad as what we hear it is. You are right, if you do the research you can find this out too, just like the recall info. But once again my point is that you dont. You only hear about the doom and gloom side of it for the domestics, every night on the local news.
Did you read my post about Toyota's sales being down 32%? The local news made a big 10 minute story about GM and Ford being down and then one sentence about Toyota being down, but never said that it was 32%, almost the same as Ford and GM! Then the next night it was more of the same, except they never mentioned Toyota again. Replay the next night and the next night again. In all, they never mentioned Honda down 24% at all! How can you say there is no bias?
Mach 1 Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
I'm not sure how to link an article from autoblog, but go there and look at the article titled Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
The article as well as the comments get my point across.
The article as well as the comments get my point across.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 30, 2008
Posts: 721
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW USA
Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
Just highlight the page address in your browser address bar, hit "CTRL + C" to copy it, then hit the insert link button 
here on your edit post window, then paste the copied web address into the pop up window.
Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
Or just paste the web address into the body of your post without the link button to get this...
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/i...l-towards-the/
here on your edit post window, then paste the copied web address into the pop up window. Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
Or just paste the web address into the body of your post without the link button to get this...
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/i...l-towards-the/
Last edited by Black GT500; Oct 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Just highlight the page address in your browser address bar, hit "CTRL + C" to copy it, then hit the insert link button here on your edit post window, then paste the copied web address into the pop up window.
Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/i...l-towards-the/
here on your edit post window, then paste the copied web address into the pop up window. Automotive News wonders: Why all the vitriol towards the big three?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/i...l-towards-the/
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 17, 2004
Posts: 543
Likes: 1
From: Indianapolis, IN
I didnt say they dont report on the import recalls entirely. But they definitely dont report on them day after day after day after day after day like they do the domestics.
As far as Knight Rider and My own worst enemy, I would call that paid advertising, not the news media.
As for your vocabulary, how many people in the real world use ignominy in a sentence daily? It sure sounded to me like you were just trying to prove how smart you are and how much above this whole thread you think you are. If not, I apologize, maybe in your circle of mustang friends, you do use that type of language.
As far as personal responsibility, I very much believe in that and hate how it has become common in our society to blame other people for our problems. My point was that it isnt as bad as what we hear it is. You are right, if you do the research you can find this out too, just like the recall info. But once again my point is that you dont. You only hear about the doom and gloom side of it for the domestics, every night on the local news.
Did you read my post about Toyota's sales being down 32%? The local news made a big 10 minute story about GM and Ford being down and then one sentence about Toyota being down, but never said that it was 32%, almost the same as Ford and GM! Then the next night it was more of the same, except they never mentioned Toyota again. Replay the next night and the next night again. In all, they never mentioned Honda down 24% at all! How can you say there is no bias?
As far as Knight Rider and My own worst enemy, I would call that paid advertising, not the news media.
As for your vocabulary, how many people in the real world use ignominy in a sentence daily? It sure sounded to me like you were just trying to prove how smart you are and how much above this whole thread you think you are. If not, I apologize, maybe in your circle of mustang friends, you do use that type of language.
As far as personal responsibility, I very much believe in that and hate how it has become common in our society to blame other people for our problems. My point was that it isnt as bad as what we hear it is. You are right, if you do the research you can find this out too, just like the recall info. But once again my point is that you dont. You only hear about the doom and gloom side of it for the domestics, every night on the local news.
Did you read my post about Toyota's sales being down 32%? The local news made a big 10 minute story about GM and Ford being down and then one sentence about Toyota being down, but never said that it was 32%, almost the same as Ford and GM! Then the next night it was more of the same, except they never mentioned Toyota again. Replay the next night and the next night again. In all, they never mentioned Honda down 24% at all! How can you say there is no bias?
Now if you want to talk about bias, how about the bias against Foreign owned domestic automotive manufacturers. All you hear about is how we need to buy american so we can support our local workers. How does GM repay that sacrifice, by building the new Camaro in Canada, the previous GTO in Australia, engines in Saltillo Mexico. What about the +90% domestic content Toyota Sienna Van, built right here in Indiana, by good old americans, and Toyota just invested more money in the a plant in Lafayette In to build Camrys there too. Hyundai built new plants, Honda just started production in Greensburg IN building Civics at a brand new Plant. Meanwhile GM and Ford are closing US plants laying off American workers and building plants in foreign countries. How about that for Media bias.
Nope just never had to link something to prove my point.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
The lack of bias comes down to the fact that last year GM and Ford were already down. The numbers reflect being down from the same period last year. Last year Toyota and honda's sales were still up while GM and fords were already sagging. So even though GM was only off 15% from last year they were still worse off then Toyota being down 32% from last year.
Now if you want to talk about bias, how about the bias against Foreign owned domestic automotive manufacturers. All you hear about is how we need to buy american so we can support our local workers. How does GM repay that sacrifice, by building the new Camaro in Canada, the previous GTO in Australia, engines in Saltillo Mexico. What about the +90% domestic content Toyota Sienna Van, built right here in Indiana, by good old americans, and Toyota just invested more money in the a plant in Lafayette In to build Camrys there too. Hyundai built new plants, Honda just started production in Greensburg IN building Civics at a brand new Plant. Meanwhile GM and Ford are closing US plants laying off American workers and building plants in foreign countries. How about that for Media bias.
Now if you want to talk about bias, how about the bias against Foreign owned domestic automotive manufacturers. All you hear about is how we need to buy american so we can support our local workers. How does GM repay that sacrifice, by building the new Camaro in Canada, the previous GTO in Australia, engines in Saltillo Mexico. What about the +90% domestic content Toyota Sienna Van, built right here in Indiana, by good old americans, and Toyota just invested more money in the a plant in Lafayette In to build Camrys there too. Hyundai built new plants, Honda just started production in Greensburg IN building Civics at a brand new Plant. Meanwhile GM and Ford are closing US plants laying off American workers and building plants in foreign countries. How about that for Media bias.
I dont disagree with you about foreign manufacturers providing jobs locally. I think its great in fact. But how many employees do the foreign manufacturers have? Now compare that to what the domestics provide. Not even close my friend! Are the domestics closing plants? Sure are! Are they retooling current plants to begin producing more fuel efficient vehicles? Sure are. Will they continue to employ more people? Yes they will.
Times have changed and there will be less and less manufacturing jobs due to automation. The domestics are stuck being the bad guys, reducing the workforce, which was needed anyways. The biggest cost involved is health costs. Those are finally being reduced too.
Tell me about all these foreign plants they are building...are you talking about the already existing plants that are being retooled as well? Or are you talking about the plants that are being built to provide cars for those foreign markets?
Lets talk about the UAW. Are any of the foreign manufacturing plants organized? Nope. Maybe this has something to do with the Saltillo plant or any other plant outside of the US. The GTO was simply a rebadged Holden Manaro and shipped over when the dollar was worth more money. What about the Prius? Its finally going to be produced stateside because of the low dollar. Not effective anymore to produce it elsewhere.
And yes you do hear about the plant closings and them being moved outside of the US. EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
Last edited by FordBlueHeart; Oct 16, 2008 at 01:43 PM.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: February 17, 2004
Posts: 543
Likes: 1
From: Indianapolis, IN
Really? Back it up with fact. When do you ever hear from the media that we need to buy american so we can support our local workers? It doesnt happen! Michigan is losing its manufacturing base because Granholm taxes the crap out of businesses. Not just auto either.
I dont disagree with you about foreign manufacturers providing jobs locally. I think its great in fact. But how many employees do the foreign manufacturers have? Now compare that to what the domestics provide. Not even close my friend! Are the domestics closing plants? Sure are! Are they retooling current plants to begin producing more fuel efficient vehicles? Sure are. Will they continue to employ more people? Yes they will.
Times have changed and there will be less and less manufacturing jobs due to automation. The domestics are stuck being the bad guys, reducing the workforce, which was needed anyways. The biggest cost involved is health costs. Those are finally being reduced too.
Tell me about all these foreign plants they are building...are you talking about the already existing plants that are being retooled as well? Or are you talking about the plants that are being built to provide cars for those foreign markets?
Lets talk about the UAW. Are any of the foreign manufacturing plants organized? Nope. Maybe this has something to do with the Saltillo plant or any other plant outside of the US. The GTO was simply a rebadged Holden Manaro and shipped over when the dollar was worth more money. What about the Prius? Its finally going to be produced stateside because of the low dollar. Not effective anymore to produce it elsewhere.
And yes you do hear about the plant closings and them being moved outside of the US. EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
I dont disagree with you about foreign manufacturers providing jobs locally. I think its great in fact. But how many employees do the foreign manufacturers have? Now compare that to what the domestics provide. Not even close my friend! Are the domestics closing plants? Sure are! Are they retooling current plants to begin producing more fuel efficient vehicles? Sure are. Will they continue to employ more people? Yes they will.
Times have changed and there will be less and less manufacturing jobs due to automation. The domestics are stuck being the bad guys, reducing the workforce, which was needed anyways. The biggest cost involved is health costs. Those are finally being reduced too.
Tell me about all these foreign plants they are building...are you talking about the already existing plants that are being retooled as well? Or are you talking about the plants that are being built to provide cars for those foreign markets?
Lets talk about the UAW. Are any of the foreign manufacturing plants organized? Nope. Maybe this has something to do with the Saltillo plant or any other plant outside of the US. The GTO was simply a rebadged Holden Manaro and shipped over when the dollar was worth more money. What about the Prius? Its finally going to be produced stateside because of the low dollar. Not effective anymore to produce it elsewhere.
And yes you do hear about the plant closings and them being moved outside of the US. EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
Fact: Barak Obama has said in every debate that we need domestic companies to build the new fuel efficient cars not from the Japanese or Korean".
American automotive industry does not just include Michigan my friend. The domestic producers are stuck because they allowed themselves to get stuck. I am sure taxes do not help michigan. but the union contracts do not cause only healthcare and legacy issues. What about the 14,000 workers that Automotive News reported on last year that do nothing except go to a room and do crossword puzzles or community service and still receive 90% of their pay, because union contract will not allow the company to fire them.
The union problem is brought on by the workers. It is their fault they are in that situation. They voted in the union. This greed will be the undoing.
Honda built a brand new facility to employ 4000 people that started production last week. the average fork truck driver will earn approx. $14 per hour. Compare that to the reported nearly $30 per hour at a domestic maker (again from the automotive news, i wish I still had the article, sorry for lacking specific month, date page citations). I have a fork license, it took four hours to get it. nearly any person could drive one. So why on earth does anyone think that they deserve $30/hr to do it. And how does that person justify what they are doing to the profitability of the company.
Question: how do you say they will continue to employ more people when you also say they are "reducing the workforce". Reducing the workforce would mean to continue to unemploy more people.
This is really one of those IRS ver. SRA discussions though. I understand your points. I personally dont think that the media is anymore bias to one as opposed to the other. Once thing that I believe McCain said in debate two; is that we have to change the people. GM, Ford, Toyota, etc are a product of the people. The companies are not "Bad Guys" the some of the attitudes of the People may make them more bad or less bad then a competitor. Toyota is getting the accolades because they are not firing and closing now. GM is getting the Bad Guy persona because they are. Why they are doing so is a product of the people, and not just management.
Anyway, Here is my email, so we don't fill up the board with this "jarradasay@yahoo.com" Thanks for the chat, email me.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
It happens every day. Everyday there are political commercials on about loosing american jobs.
Fact: Barak Obama has said in every debate that we need domestic companies to build the new fuel efficient cars not from the Japanese or Korean".
American automotive industry does not just include Michigan my friend. The domestic producers are stuck because they allowed themselves to get stuck. I am sure taxes do not help michigan. but the union contracts do not cause only healthcare and legacy issues. What about the 14,000 workers that Automotive News reported on last year that do nothing except go to a room and do crossword puzzles or community service and still receive 90% of their pay, because union contract will not allow the company to fire them.
The union problem is brought on by the workers. It is their fault they are in that situation. They voted in the union. This greed will be the undoing.
Honda built a brand new facility to employ 4000 people that started production last week. the average fork truck driver will earn approx. $14 per hour. Compare that to the reported nearly $30 per hour at a domestic maker (again from the automotive news, i wish I still had the article, sorry for lacking specific month, date page citations). I have a fork license, it took four hours to get it. nearly any person could drive one. So why on earth does anyone think that they deserve $30/hr to do it. And how does that person justify what they are doing to the profitability of the company.
Question: how do you say they will continue to employ more people when you also say they are "reducing the workforce". Reducing the workforce would mean to continue to unemploy more people.
This is really one of those IRS ver. SRA discussions though. I understand your points. I personally dont think that the media is anymore bias to one as opposed to the other. Once thing that I believe McCain said in debate two; is that we have to change the people. GM, Ford, Toyota, etc are a product of the people. The companies are not "Bad Guys" the some of the attitudes of the People may make them more bad or less bad then a competitor. Toyota is getting the accolades because they are not firing and closing now. GM is getting the Bad Guy persona because they are. Why they are doing so is a product of the people, and not just management.
Anyway, Here is my email, so we don't fill up the board with this "jarradasay@yahoo.com" Thanks for the chat, email me.
Fact: Barak Obama has said in every debate that we need domestic companies to build the new fuel efficient cars not from the Japanese or Korean".
American automotive industry does not just include Michigan my friend. The domestic producers are stuck because they allowed themselves to get stuck. I am sure taxes do not help michigan. but the union contracts do not cause only healthcare and legacy issues. What about the 14,000 workers that Automotive News reported on last year that do nothing except go to a room and do crossword puzzles or community service and still receive 90% of their pay, because union contract will not allow the company to fire them.
The union problem is brought on by the workers. It is their fault they are in that situation. They voted in the union. This greed will be the undoing.
Honda built a brand new facility to employ 4000 people that started production last week. the average fork truck driver will earn approx. $14 per hour. Compare that to the reported nearly $30 per hour at a domestic maker (again from the automotive news, i wish I still had the article, sorry for lacking specific month, date page citations). I have a fork license, it took four hours to get it. nearly any person could drive one. So why on earth does anyone think that they deserve $30/hr to do it. And how does that person justify what they are doing to the profitability of the company.
Question: how do you say they will continue to employ more people when you also say they are "reducing the workforce". Reducing the workforce would mean to continue to unemploy more people.
This is really one of those IRS ver. SRA discussions though. I understand your points. I personally dont think that the media is anymore bias to one as opposed to the other. Once thing that I believe McCain said in debate two; is that we have to change the people. GM, Ford, Toyota, etc are a product of the people. The companies are not "Bad Guys" the some of the attitudes of the People may make them more bad or less bad then a competitor. Toyota is getting the accolades because they are not firing and closing now. GM is getting the Bad Guy persona because they are. Why they are doing so is a product of the people, and not just management.
Anyway, Here is my email, so we don't fill up the board with this "jarradasay@yahoo.com" Thanks for the chat, email me.
I do blame the unions for their greed! But the imports dont have to deal with that. They make more money than that job should get. During college I received an internship working at a supplier, only to be amazed at my ability to make over $20 an hour with no experience or skills. Ridiculous! This was 20 years ago!
The domestics are reducing the workforce, but will still employ more than the imports overall. Thats what I was trying to elude to.
GM and Ford has their hands tied because of the labor contracts. We will finally see this change with the new agreements taking place, but am not sure how long before it takes effects that we as a consumer will see.
Last edited by FordBlueHeart; Oct 16, 2008 at 03:04 PM.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 30, 2008
Posts: 721
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW USA
...
Cobra Member
Joined: October 27, 2007
Posts: 1,380
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and everytime he says that he proves he's out of touch.
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Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 30, 2008
Posts: 721
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW USA
Seriously what is the BFD with IRS?
Seriously though, what is the BFD with IRS?
There are kits out there for thousands of dollars to replace that superior Independent Rear Suspension with a plain old inferior Solid Rear Axle...
Why would anyone ever do such a thing??? Nobody is selling kits to replace disc brakes with drum brakes, why? Maybe because the disc brakes superiority over drum brakes is indisputable...
PHP IRS/Straight Axle Conversion Kit
Kit includes everything you need to convert your '99-'04 IRS Cobra to a straight axle
Price: $5200.00
http://secure-order-area.net/paulshp...d=312951_17924
Mustangs and Camaros have been knocking on the .85/.90 G skidpad barriers for a long time with nothing more than a plain old solid rear axle. So basically, the advantage of IRS is in ride quality and handling on bumpy, imperfect surfaces.
A solid rear axle that's well designed and setup is better than any IRS setup on 90 percent of the roads we drive on. A solid rear axle is cheaper, lighter, more reliable, and easier to work on.
I would take IRS if it could hold up just as well as the SRA to my power levels, and if it did not cost anymore than the SRA.
Ultimately it truly matters little if it performs any differently. It's a simply a matter of market perception.
There are kits out there for thousands of dollars to replace that superior Independent Rear Suspension with a plain old inferior Solid Rear Axle...
Why would anyone ever do such a thing???
Nobody is selling kits to replace disc brakes with drum brakes, why? Maybe because the disc brakes superiority over drum brakes is indisputable... PHP IRS/Straight Axle Conversion Kit
Kit includes everything you need to convert your '99-'04 IRS Cobra to a straight axle
Price: $5200.00
http://secure-order-area.net/paulshp...d=312951_17924
Mustangs and Camaros have been knocking on the .85/.90 G skidpad barriers for a long time with nothing more than a plain old solid rear axle. So basically, the advantage of IRS is in ride quality and handling on bumpy, imperfect surfaces.
A solid rear axle that's well designed and setup is better than any IRS setup on 90 percent of the roads we drive on. A solid rear axle is cheaper, lighter, more reliable, and easier to work on.
I would take IRS if it could hold up just as well as the SRA to my power levels, and if it did not cost anymore than the SRA.
Ultimately it truly matters little if it performs any differently. It's a simply a matter of market perception.
Like Father...
I ♥ Sausage
I ♥ Sausage
Joined: April 4, 2007
Posts: 20,164
Likes: 643
From: Just outside the middle of nowhere
Arguing about this is like trying to **** up a rope, an exercise in futility. No matter what "evidence" you present, how eloquently you phrase your case, or how many times you repeat the same mantra, it all comes down to personal preference and you are not going to change someone's mind with links or comparisons.
Last edited by Rather B.Blown; Oct 17, 2008 at 12:28 AM.