2010-2014 Mustang Information on The S197 {GenII}

What's the BFD with IRS?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Oct 14, 2008 | 05:11 PM
  #201  
max2000jp's Avatar
Shelby GT500 Member
 
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT
Blaming the national news media for Ford and GM's myopic business models and failure to monitor global trends is what's ridiculous. So is assuming - incorrectly, I might add - that manufacturers like Toyota don't know how to build trucks. Go check their history.
http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:F

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TM

These guys are die hard Ford loyals. There is no media bias. Look at the financials.
Reply
Old Oct 14, 2008 | 05:12 PM
  #202  
max2000jp's Avatar
Shelby GT500 Member
 
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT

Putting all their eggs in one basket in a fluctuating global economy just shows how insular Ford and GM's North American leadership was.

Fortunately, Alan Mulally "gets" it...even if others don't. Hopefully the company can stay solvent long enough for his plans to be fully implemented.
Good post
Reply
Old Oct 14, 2008 | 08:36 PM
  #203  
05fordgt's Avatar
Team Mustang Source
 
Joined: June 19, 2004
Posts: 6,840
Likes: 2
From: Phoenixville, PA
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT
Sure guys. And I agree with all of that. But that's a bit of a red herring. Blaming the media for the fact that Ford and GM chose to focus on trucks almost exclusively while ignoring the development of appealing small and midsize cars - when across town the Japanese were proving for YEARS that they were succeeding with the strategy of appealing cars - is just deflecting the blame for stupid and short-sighted policies on the part of the two American automakers.

Putting all their eggs in one basket in a fluctuating global economy just shows how insular Ford and GM's North American leadership was.

Fortunately, Alan Mulally "gets" it...even if others don't. Hopefully the company can stay solvent long enough for his plans to be fully implemented.
You just don't get it, do you! Ford (and the others, GM, and Chrysler) made the vehicles that EVERYONE was wanting AT THE TIME!! The SUV boom was at an all-time high, and everyone was wanting them. Then the pickup market exploded with low priced leases on loaded trucks. Who did that? The banks who price out residual values. The boom got so crazy, Porsche jumped in for an SUV and they sold the heck out of it!! If Ford were to have abandonded their SUV/Truck market in its highest point, people would have been beating them up for doing so! These vehicles were what was making the most money for every company. Even the Cayanne, was said to have saved Porsche when it was introduced. So if you want to blame Ford for selling the products that the average joe wanted to buy, then go ahead and do so. Don't blame them for not getting on the bandwagon of small cars. AT THAT TIME, NO ONE WANTED THEM!!!

I can tell you, from what I saw at work, that back in 2004, when the new F150 came out, NO ONE was wanting a small car. They were coming in for F150s, Explorers, and even the Expeditions. For cars we sold the new S-197, and the 500 was pretty decent seller its 1st year. No one was coming in for fuel efficent cars! They wanted trucks, thats what they wanted! Why do you think Ford sold over a Million F-series in its highest point, and it stayed high for years. People wanted them and kept buying them. Only when gas spiked over $4.00 a gallon, did people realize they couldn't drive their SUVs and trucks for dailys. Its the truth, and I saw it 1st hand.
Reply
Old Oct 14, 2008 | 09:04 PM
  #204  
Hollywood_North GT's Avatar
Closet American
 
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Originally Posted by 05fordgt
You just don't get it, do you!


That was going to be my line, but I thought I'd spare you the ignominy.

Try and stay on topic now, OK?

Originally Posted by 05fordgt
Ford (and the others, GM, and Chrysler) made the vehicles that EVERYONE was wanting AT THE TIME!! The SUV boom was at an all-time high, and everyone was wanting them. Then the pickup market exploded with low priced leases on loaded trucks. Who did that? The banks who price out residual values. The boom got so crazy, Porsche jumped in for an SUV and they sold the heck out of it!! If Ford were to have abandonded their SUV/Truck market in its highest point, people would have been beating them up for doing so! These vehicles were what was making the most money for every company. Even the Cayanne, was said to have saved Porsche when it was introduced. So if you want to blame Ford for selling the products that the average joe wanted to buy, then go ahead and do so.
Yes, yes...I AGREE with you on this. I already said that.

Originally Posted by 05fordgt
Don't blame them for not getting on the bandwagon of small cars. AT THAT TIME, NO ONE WANTED THEM!!!
Ahhhh, Kimosabe, but this is where you're going off the rails like a locomotive with a blind engineer at the helm.

Of course people wanted smaller cars - how do you think Toyota and Honda built their fortunes here in North America? They certainly didn't make them selling NOTHING BUT TRUCKS.

Originally Posted by 05fordgt
I can tell you, from what I saw at work, that back in 2004, when the new F150 came out, NO ONE was wanting a small car.
That's because for small cars everyone was going to Honda and Toyota. Why? Because with very few exceptions, Ford and GM build CRAP small cars from the mid-'70s all the way through the '90s. If I'm honest, their mid-sized cars weren't very good, either.

Originally Posted by 05fordgt
They were coming in for F150s, Explorers, and even the Expeditions. For cars we sold the new S-197, and the 500 was pretty decent seller its 1st year. No one was coming in for fuel efficent cars! They wanted trucks, thats what they wanted! Why do you think Ford sold over a Million F-series in its highest point, and it stayed high for years. People wanted them and kept buying them. Only when gas spiked over $4.00 a gallon, did people realize they couldn't drive their SUVs and trucks for dailys. Its the truth, and I saw it 1st hand.
Also, don't presume your dealership or geographic region is representative of all of North America and the buying patterns within.

Ford and GM gave up on cars - small cars in particular - to focus on trucks and SUVs, because they essentially conceded defeat to the imports. Why did they concede defeat? Because they didn't spend any time or attention on this segment; shortsighted long term planning by a myopic North American management team.

The Taurus back in '86 is a GREAT example of a midsize automotive success story for Ford, which illustrates my point. What did they do with the Taurus at the height of its success? When trucks began to look more profitable in the SHORT TERM, they let the Taurus wither and die.

Again, this is an example of a self-inflicted wound.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 05:06 AM
  #205  
Evil_Capri's Avatar
Post *****
 
Joined: February 3, 2004
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 73
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT
That's because for small cars everyone was going to Honda and Toyota. Why? Because with very few exceptions, Ford and GM build CRAP small cars from the mid-'70s all the way through the '90s. If I'm honest, their mid-sized cars weren't very good, either.

The Taurus back in '86 is a GREAT example of a midsize automotive success story for Ford, which illustrates my point. What did they do with the Taurus at the height of its success? When trucks began to look more profitable in the SHORT TERM, they let the Taurus wither and die.
Not so fast . . .FMC HAD a strong foothold on the car market 20 years ago.

Ford Division: No. 1 division in U.S. in combined car and truck sales
Escort: No. 1 subcompact
Taurus: No. 1 mid-size
Thunderbird: No. 1 mid-specialty
Mustang: No. 1 small sports car
F-Series pickup: No. 1 pickup; best selling of all vehicles in the U.S.
Aerostar: No. 1 mini-van nameplate
Ranger: No. 1 compant pickup, import or domestic
Econoline: No. 1 full size van
Car Sales up 2%
Truck sales up 9%
Share of market: cars, up 2.6% to 20.6%
Share of market: trucks, up 1.2% to 29.5%
Earnings: $1.5 billion

A key reason the car marketed suffered is because not only were trucks and SUVs more profitable, FMC spent all their cash on a plethora on industries (from ebusiness, to auto companies, to maintenance companies, etc.)

Automotive News spelled out 6 issues where Nasser and FMC lost their footing.

“1. Ford lost its focus as an automaker.
Under Nasser, Ford did not define itself as an automaker. Instead Ford became a consumer company providing automotive goods and services.

The result: Ford began struggling in its core business of engineering, manufacturing and selling cars and trucks. Product quality slipped below GM and DaimlerChrysler. Product launches were botched.

“2. Nasser fell under the spell of the Internet.
In the late 1990s, the Internet bubble rose on the economic landscape, enticing companies with the lure of profits from e-businesses trading at huge price-earnings multiples. Nasser envisioned taking public various units of a newly created Ford e-commerce group, capitalizing on the phenomenal market value of Internet stocks and vaulting Ford into the Internet age.

The result: The strategy collapsed with the Internet economy. The fallout spilled over to Ford’s relations with a core constituency, its retailers. Dealers today still smart from Nasser’s experiments in e-retailing, viewing attempts to sell and service vehicles on the Internet as a threat to the franchised dealer network.


“3. Nasser attempted to go on his own too much.
Nasser tried to oversee personally too many aspects of running a global corporation.

The result: As many as 16 executives reported directly to the Ford CEO. Bent on single-handedly wielding power at the top, Nasser failed to create a strong operating executive to back up the CEO. Nasser’s micromanaging slowed decision-making and created a company in organizational limbo awaiting direction.


“4. Nasser neglected William Clay Ford Jr.
Nasser failed to develop a sensible working relationship with Bill Ford when the Ford scion became non-executive chairman in January 1999.

The result: The company had an uneasy balance of leadership. Nasser’s hands-on style failed to accommodate Bill Ford’s growing influence.

“5. Nasser underestimated Bridgestone/Firestone Inc. CEO John Lampe.
Nasser compounded the Firestone tire recall by underestimating Lampe, who refused to back down when Ford fingered 13 million additional Firestone tires as potentially faulty.

The result: Nasser and Lampe engaged in corporate mudslinging and finger-pointing before the press, Congress and the public. The spectacle of Firestone blaming the Ford Explorer and Ford blaming the tire maker for road deaths damaged the reputations of both companies. Meanwhile, the enormous amount of time that Nasser spent on the crisis left other important tasks undone.

“6. Nasser spent too much time on Premier Automotive Group.
As part of a lofty vision, Nasser acquired Volvo and Land Rover, hoping to leverage the big-name brands into a global luxury powerhouse under the Premier Automotive Group umbrella.

The result: Core brands such as Ford in North America stood in line for management time, talent and money. Nasser’s strategy made Ford more vulnerable in North America, the company’s chief source of profits.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 05:34 AM
  #206  
Hollywood_North GT's Avatar
Closet American
 
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Originally Posted by Evil_Capri
Not so fast . . .FMC HAD a strong foothold on the car market 20 years ago.

Ford Division: No. 1 division in U.S. in combined car and truck sales
Escort: No. 1 subcompact
Taurus: No. 1 mid-size
Thunderbird: No. 1 mid-specialty
Mustang: No. 1 small sports car
F-Series pickup: No. 1 pickup; best selling of all vehicles in the U.S.
Aerostar: No. 1 mini-van nameplate
Ranger: No. 1 compant pickup, import or domestic
Econoline: No. 1 full size van
Car Sales up 2%
Truck sales up 9%
Share of market: cars, up 2.6% to 20.6%
Share of market: trucks, up 1.2% to 29.5%
Earnings: $1.5 billion

A key reason the car marketed suffered is because not only were trucks and SUVs more profitable, FMC spent all their cash on a plethora on industries (from ebusiness, to auto companies, to maintenance companies, etc.)

Automotive News spelled out 6 issues where Nasser and FMC lost their footing.
Uh-huh...and that's a whole other kettle of fish that further supports my argument that the company was poorly managed.

As to the other stats you quoted: where are they sourced from and what year(s) exactly are they discussing?
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 05:37 AM
  #207  
Evil_Capri's Avatar
Post *****
 
Joined: February 3, 2004
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 73
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT
Uh-huh...and that's a whole other kettle of fish that further supports my argument that the company was poorly managed.

As to the other stats you quoted: where are they sourced from and what year(s) exactly are they discussing?
First six months of 1987. I created a thread about it last year.

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showth...ighlight=tempo
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 06:05 AM
  #208  
GTJOHN's Avatar
Cobra Member
 
Joined: June 25, 2004
Posts: 1,076
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
There is truth in all your arguments. Bottom-line, Ford had poor planning and no contingency plan.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 06:33 AM
  #209  
FordBlueHeart's Avatar
Mach 1 Member
 
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Originally Posted by GTJOHN
There is truth in all your arguments. Bottom-line, Ford had poor planning and no contingency plan.
Thats right John, Ford had poor planning. But it hasnt been that way for at least a couple years, if not longer.
Its just that most people who dont work in the business, dont realize that it takes several years for things that are implemented to take place. We have all talked about how the 2010 body was signed off years ago, but yet it still isnt here. Ford said last fall that they were going to bring the Fiesta here, a car that is already being produced in Cologne, but yet we still wont see it until next fall. Things cant happen over night with any manufacturer. Thats what irritates me the most with some of these comments, things arent that way anymore, you are living in the past, not the present. We personally may not see the difference yet, but they are there. To sit here and bash Ford about what happened with previous management is stupid. This company is on the rise despite what the media tells us. Doom and gloom sells. When they do tell us about a company doing well, we say "yeah, thats what is supposed to happen, thats what we expect." Thats not as sensational as "They are about to go under!"

Last edited by FordBlueHeart; Oct 15, 2008 at 06:39 AM.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 06:38 AM
  #210  
FordBlueHeart's Avatar
Mach 1 Member
 
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Originally Posted by max2000jp


These guys are die hard Ford loyals. There is no media bias.
Wrong, I'm a car guy who looks at and has worked with every manufacturer we are talking about. I have been in the trenches and I see what they have done.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 06:41 AM
  #211  
05fordgt's Avatar
Team Mustang Source
 
Joined: June 19, 2004
Posts: 6,840
Likes: 2
From: Phoenixville, PA
Originally Posted by GTJOHN
There is truth in all your arguments. Bottom-line, Ford had poor planning and no contingency plan.
And so did the other manufacturers in the same boat (GM and Chrysler).

Now comes news that GM will NOT release the Chevy Beat/Groove/Trax small car in the US. They don't see a market for it. I've posted a link to Autoblog about it. Talk about a bad business decision.

Chevy COO says no small car for the U.S.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 06:47 AM
  #212  
FordBlueHeart's Avatar
Mach 1 Member
 
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Originally Posted by Hollywood_North GT
Blaming the national news media for Ford and GM's myopic business models and failure to monitor global trends is what's ridiculous. So is assuming - incorrectly, I might add - that manufacturers like Toyota don't know how to build trucks. Go check their history.
You still havent answered my question about what competition. In fact Max hasnt either. All that either of you has done is come up with talking points that you have read or been fed by the media. Maybe you do have the info I asked for, but I havent seen it. I'd like to hear it. Not your big vocabulary.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 09:42 AM
  #213  
Vermillion06's Avatar
Cobra Member
 
Joined: May 16, 2006
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
From: NV
Originally Posted by Evil_Capri
Not so fast . . .FMC HAD a strong foothold on the car market 20 years ago.
Even 10 years ago, Ford was the most profitable automaker in the world source

Originally Posted by Evil_Capri

A key reason the car marketed suffered is because not only were trucks and SUVs more profitable, FMC spent all their cash on a plethora on industries (from ebusiness, to auto companies, to maintenance companies, etc.)

Automotive News spelled out 6 issues where Nasser and FMC lost their footing.
Exactly, Nasser spent all those truck profits on Jaguar,Aston Martin, Volvo, and buying misc. businessses like junkyards and and a chain of auto service centers in Britain. Every one of those was like throwing money into a pit, except for Volvo which has provided car platforms for Ford cars. That money could have been used improving the profitability of the car side of Ford America.

Back then, "he hoped strong North American results would buy Nasser room to fix the rest of the world" . The rest of the world (Ford Europe, mostly) got fixed with North America profits, but North America didn't get fixed.

So everyone can thank Jacques A. Nasser for mismanaging Ford and bringing the company where it is today.

Last edited by Vermillion06; Oct 15, 2008 at 09:53 AM.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 09:52 AM
  #214  
Knight's Avatar
Needs to be more Astony
 
Joined: October 4, 2004
Posts: 8,610
Likes: 5
From: Volo, IL
I do think that Mulally gets it what needs to be done and will be able to turn ford around. He is doing things today that Ford has not done in the past and has made tons of effort to help turnaround time of development with the cut of bean counter cancel and then restart projects.

He is constantly showing his ability to rethink ideas and ways of doing things rather then the stubburn attitude of its worked before lets try to repeat the past success and try redoing it over and over instead of adapting to a changing market.

The company that refuses to change is the company that will not stay around.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 10:01 AM
  #215  
FordBlueHeart's Avatar
Mach 1 Member
 
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Originally Posted by Knight
I do think that Mulally gets it what needs to be done and will be able to turn ford around. He is doing things today that Ford has not done in the past and has made tons of effort to help turnaround time of development with the cut of bean counter cancel and then restart projects.

He is constantly showing his ability to rethink ideas and ways of doing things rather then the stubburn attitude of its worked before lets try to repeat the past success and try redoing it over and over instead of adapting to a changing market.

The company that refuses to change is the company that will not stay around.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 10:15 AM
  #216  
laserred38's Avatar
Legacy TMS Member
 
Joined: January 6, 2006
Posts: 14,053
Likes: 166
From: Bay Area, CA
Won't this thread die?? Just give us the Watts link and call it a day already!
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 10:20 AM
  #217  
FordBlueHeart's Avatar
Mach 1 Member
 
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: Traverse City
Originally Posted by laserred38
Won't this thread die?? Just give us the Watts link and call it a day already!
Thats not good enough for some people.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 10:54 AM
  #218  
Zoomie's Avatar
Bullitt Member
 
Joined: April 28, 2008
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
But it oughta be!!!
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 11:30 AM
  #219  
laserred38's Avatar
Legacy TMS Member
 
Joined: January 6, 2006
Posts: 14,053
Likes: 166
From: Bay Area, CA
I know its a moot point, as none of us work for Ford, but really is there any downside to utilizing a Watts-link like the Saleen and other aftermarket manufacturers produce for the S197? I've ridden in a PJ, and the car had four people in it. It stayed flatter in turns than my car with Eibach Pro-kit, KYB AGXs, Kenny Brown STB/RSTB/SFCs and Bullitt sway bars, and it rode better than any solid axle Mustang I have driven/rode in. I can't comment on wheel hop issues because I wasn't driving and we didn't really get on it, but it feels like a solid system and I really feel like it would allow the S197 to out-handle pretty much everything in its class with an IRS.
Reply
Old Oct 15, 2008 | 12:44 PM
  #220  
max2000jp's Avatar
Shelby GT500 Member
 
Joined: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Originally Posted by FordBlueHeart
You still havent answered my question about what competition. In fact Max hasnt either. All that either of you has done is come up with talking points that you have read or been fed by the media. Maybe you do have the info I asked for, but I havent seen it. I'd like to hear it. Not your big vocabulary.
There you go blaming the media again. That's a good political tactic too! Like I mentioned, look at Ford's sales numbers and financials. They speak for themselves. No media bias there!

What question do you want me to answer? I must have missed it.
Reply



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:30 AM.