The general theme is catching on here ... COST ... Ford stocks lost -21.80% today, closing at $2.08. These are tough times for auto makers and Ford, while they are still bringing forth an updated version of our Mustang, cannot make costly changes like IRS. My $.02

 

Well all I know is that my 97 VW GTI did NOT feel any better than my current 93 5.0 mustang. The only time my GT ever feels worse is when it rained and I punched it around a corner. I nearly lost control but that was my fault. My GTI wasn't much better in the rain though because of its FWD it would torque steer like crazy.

Plus, the arguement about everyone else offering IRS so ford should too is dumb. Ford offers a V8 which many of those same competitors don't so they should drop that. Or how about the fact that Ford superchargers the mustang, while the 350z, camaro, and challenger don't. I guess Ford fails again.

 

I honestly think you are being wayyyyy too picky about this (just like every other guy advocating that the mustang sucks without IRS). Most people don't even know the horsepower there car puts out let alone what type of suspension they have. All they know is how it feels. I haven't noticed all these thing that you claim SRA does. I don't notice how it hops horribly over bad roads nor do I feel like I'm losing control when I do go over poor roads. Now without souding like a jerk, maybe you just need more experience driving so that you feel comfortable navigating over poor roads.

Because like I stated above, I do not notice any measurable difference between SRA and IRS on REAL LIFE ROADS. On top of the GTI that I used as a comparison to my mustang, I also had a 300zx and 240sx and neither felt any better than my GT. I could only imagine how much better the 05+ mustang is.

As for the Mustang comparing to the vette or M3, are you serious? Now I know your standards are way too high, especially when you consider what price the mustang goes for compared to the other two. Now the GT500kr on the other hand can at least compare to those two although I am not advocating that it would actually beat them.

 

So you're saying that Ford is much smarter than every other performance coupe manufacturer in the world?!

Ohhh-K.

There's a good reason no other performance car maker in the world uses an iron girder for a rear suspension.

Well, a lot of those competitors are squeezing more horsepower per liter and per cylinder out of their sixes than Ford gets from its V8. The 4.6L V8, while a great engine, is hardly pushing the boundaries of what's possible. The current 350Z is almost as fast as the Stang GT with two less normally aspirated cylinders. Meanwhile, the forthcoming 370Z is rumored to be offering a V8, while the Camaro will likely get a Z28 that will compete with the GT500. Dunno about the Challenger; don't think it will be long for this world in any form.

 

People who buy Mustang GTs do. Count on it. And at the end of the day, that's who we're talking about here.

 

I like this idea too, especially since it is lighter than a live axle! If not why not a Watt's?

 

+1 on the Watts link. Ford should offer it as standard equipment if it intends of still using the SRA. It will keep costs down since IRS components are more expensive than a good Watts Link, IMO.

 

One thing for sure is that Chevy's new Camaro was built to be better than the Mustang. At the end of the day we can talk about which car cost more or what looks better. The bottom line is that the Camaro is a better car than the 05-09 Mustang, and it should be they had years to build a Mustang- beater. This whole IRS debate is in big part because the Camaro is going to own the current car in the twisties and 422HP doesn't hurt in the 1/4 either.

I say Ford needs to do what it takes to equal, if not beat the Camaro. If the Watts link can allow us to handle like the Camaro i'm all for it. If we only need 315HP to run with the Camaro i'm fine. My opinion is that we need at least a Watts link and 375 HP to keep up with the Camaro in terms of performance oh yeah and make the GT500 brakes standard for all V8 Mustangs.

I don't get why everyone uses cost as an excuse for not offering an IRS, since when have Dodge or GM been in much better shape? Some would argue that Mopar is by far in the worst shape. Though the Challenger is a bit overweight it still offers 370HP, IRS and a 6 speed for about the same price as a Bullitt Mustang..... stop sticking up for Ford on this one. We need Ford to know that we demand a great product. Is the 05' Mustang a great car? Hell yeah, but why stop there?

 

DeDion combines some of the best aspects of the IRS (less unsprung weight since the diff is mounted to the chassis--gives better ride quality) and the best aspects of the live axle (constant control of camber angle during cornering, simplicity). Plus it's cheaper than a full IRS since it's less complex.

I was kind of being facetious in bringing it up, since most people think, "if you're going that far with the design, why not just make a full IRS and be done with it?"

A Watt's linkage is a good idea too, but since Ford already has a watt's setup in the Crown Vic and decided not to just copy the rear suspension of the Crown Vic when they did the S197 and instead went with the 3-link/panhard bar setup, the engineers might have found the 3-link/panhard bar setup to be better in this application.

 

hahah it SHOULD be...its more than just a couple of years...
The 05 was planned back in the late 90s....
But think the current camaro project wasn't started till after its cancellation (the previous, what was to be 2003 camaro generation) was scrapped if I'm not mistaken.

Now think Ford is doing baby steps to update.
We are getting a new bunch of engines across the board + some interior refinements.
I'm not defending here, but to keep the current price in check and the future 2010 in check...i'd assume that the decision to add all the nice to have improvements to the current platform (which may or may not be gone in 3 -5 years) isn't going to happen till the next redesign. I think its a bit of a smart move, even though it might **** some people off...

GM is in the boat that they would HAVE to make it work or get it better than the current mustang (which again is a bit of a moving target)
The Challenger has the advantage of being on a current platform with current engines. (and even the interior from the parts bin)

 

its better now, but not for long

 

You do know that a loaded V8 SS Camaro, is gonna most likely be priced in the upper $30,000 price range, right? GM already stated that the Camaro isn't gonna be in the same price arena as Mustang and will cost more money. One reason, is the chassis, which is expensive! And last time I checked the Mustang is about "bang for the buck". I know I can't afford a high $30,000 car, but I could afford a loaded GT at $29,000 (though I got it for under $26,000 with my Ford employee discount). We trash the Shelby GT for being almost $40,000 with all the FRPP parts added. Ford doesn't want to price out their core buyer of the car just to make nice with people who are in your ballpark. Keep the car reasonable and less expensive than the Camaro and Challenger (which it is BTW) and people will buy it. So you know, the IRS Challenger that is sitting at my local Dodge dealer has been there for a month now, in the SAME SPOT!! No one wants it! Its an R/T Silver, pretty loaded. Why don't you wait and see what the 2011 5.0L V8 has to offer before giving up the ship.

 

Yeah, remember the videos showing GM employees working on the protoype Camaro body with S197s in the workshop in the background? They probably bought some Mustangs, disassembled them, measured and copied what they could, and adapted existing parts from their own bins that would work.

 

 

]]

Hey, I agree it is a cost savings for Ford but it also makes it a cost savings for me, and that is a good thing in my book.

That R/T Challenger with 6 speed won't come in at anywhere close to $3000 over a Mustang GT. Add nearly $1000 for the 6speed trans. And that is still a stripped version of the R/T. My 06 GT loaded with everything available in 06 except the Mach 1000 sound system and the convertible top came in under $30,000. The fully loaded Challenger R/T manual lists for $38,000 or more. Heck the SRT8 automatic R/T version only lists for a mere $3000 more at $41,000 or so.

Oh, and those 18 inch wheels on the Challenger are only 7.5 inches wide (Our stock 17's are 8 inches). And the optional Challenger 20's only grow to 8 inches wide.

What are the prices looking like for the base Camaro V-8 engine with all of the options? Chances are it is way north of $30,000 also.

I test drove both the auto and manual Challenger R/Ts. These cars feel heavy, the 6 speed pattern is close and short but the shifter feels even more rubbery than the Mustang's. And the clutch is very vague. So Dodge may offer an IRS but the rest of the car is bigger, heavier and less precise. Plus it surely does not feel like 75 more HP than the Mustang GT (R/T Auto gets 370 HP, the manual comes in with 375 due to tuning).

Magnums, Chargers, GTOs, IRS Cobras all had half shaft problems when abused (and likely the Challengers and the Camaros will also).

 

Well I don't see a huge gap in price between the Mustang and Challenger. I never stated that it was the better car but it does offer more stuff for just a little more money (IRS, 6 speed). A fully loaded R/T coupe comes in at a little less than $35,000 not the near $40,000 prices you suggest while a fully topped out GT Coupe is also in the same range. A base GT premium is up to $29,000 not to mention a boat load of options that can push it to close to $40,000. The SRT8 is not the top performer but still Cheaper than the GT500. I'd like to see a road test of a manual equipped SRT8 vs the GT500. Though the GT500 is the better car they may end up closer than we all think.

I have not driven the Challenger so I can't make the same comparisons as you, my point is if Dodge can put an IRS and 6 speed in a car within a couple thousand of the Mustang than Ford can add it and my guess it would maybe bump MSRP about $1000.

 

Ok whats wrong with me stating that it should be a better car because it had years to study the Mustang's current design? You just repeated what I stated.

In my opinion Ford has the market it should try it's best to keep it. Those of you who think the Mustang won't take a hit from the arrival of both the Challenger and Camaro are living in the clouds. What is so complex that IRS and a 6 speed can't be added to a platform that obviously was intended to have it. I mean c'mon the GTO had an IRS back in 04' even Ford stuck these two performance upgrades in the sn95 era Cobra, while the F Bodies have had 6 speeds since 93'! It is not like they need to redesign the whole car to give us those two things and an engine that is comparable to the competition. I think overall people are playing up the price of the Camaro, yes it will be more expensive but it will be a bargain if it whoops the GT500. For one i'm sure it will out handle it and 422HP is not a bad starting point.

I think Ford should have been ready to equal the competition with the 10' car not this "wait for 11 with the 5.0" . So far there is no concrete evidence of this and even if so do you guys think GM and Dodge are just twiddling their thumbs? Dodge has a whole new line of motors including newer, more fuel efficient HEMIs. GM's direct injection in the 300HP V6 will soon see itself in V8s....... Ford had the ball in it's court why is it going to have to play catch up?

 

This may be a bit of a non-issue. As others have stated, wait for the 2011 GT: MUCH nicer interior, sexier styling, more amenities...and most importantly, 400HP (which if history repeats itself can probably tuned to 425 HP). And while I doubt you will see IRS, the suspension setup is rumored to be patterned after the current Bullitt, which is pretty adept in the handling department.

Sure, IRS would be ideal, but by 2011 it may not be necessary to compete with or trump the Challenger/Camaro.

 

There you go again...using logic in your arguments...

Ford would have a huge winner if they can implement those changes. I know that's why I went the BMW E46 M3 route back in 01 and 04. The 5.0L 4V is still not really pushing the envelope with only 400hp out of a 5.0L motor..that's 80hp per litre when BMW is getting 414hp out of a 4.0L V8.

What everyone is forgetting is the car was already designed with a IRS in mind, so the R&D is probably already there. If it pushes the price of the car up another grand or so so be it. Give us what we want, the car still would be a heck of a bargain when you compare it to a M3 and such.

Dave

 

The current Bullitt will scoot to 60 in under 5 seconds with the right driver - and probably take your E46 M3 in the twisties, too. It's not JUST about numbers on paper, it's about how everything works together holistically.

For example, GM's LS engine in the Corvette is a pushrod, but it's also a world beater.

Academically, however, I do agree that 400 HP out of 5 liters isn't exactly pushing the boundaries of what's possible...but by the same token, it's likely to be more reliable than a Euro V8 that winds up over 7 grand. And I expect the 2011 GT will hit 60 in 4.6 seconds...plenty quick given its price point.