I think it's about time to break with tradition.

 

Can't say I have any qualms with breaking tradition for more power.

I still wouldn't complain though, if Ford added a modest amount of power (lets say an extra 40-50 hp) and dramatically increased gas mileage. That would make the base GT a much more sensible car than it is even now. All the people that only turned it away for MPG reasons would no longer have that reason to pass the Mustang in favor of some imported horsepower. I smell sales

 

I agree.

What is happening is that people are giving DI credit for things it does not do. We see GM, Toyota, etc. introduce a new GDI engine that have 15% more HP than the old non DI engine and all the credit is given to DI. What is forgotten is that DI is not the only improvements to those engines, there are a bunch of other changes that when combined with DI give the big HP gain.

What does DI do and not do?

Higher peak HP - not necessarily
Broader power curve - probably
Improved efficiency (higher MPG) - yes
Lower emissinons - yes, espcially on during warm up after a cold start.

So it is very much possible we will get a new 5.0 N/A Mustang w/o DI that has 400 HP. The additional HP #s could add up like this over the present 4.6 3V:

+0.4 L displacement +25 HP
4V heads + 20 HP
Larger bore allows larger valves, less shrouding = even more airflow +20 HP
Higher RPM @ peak HP +20 HP
Rated 400 HP on 91 octane +15 HP

There you have it, an easy 400 HP.

I'd expect for 2011 it gets DI with a minimal peak HP improvement but with better TQ & HP curves and higher MPG.

 

Right ! 2015MY for the new platform, with an expected April 2014 launch

 

Call me a naysayer, but I don't believe 400hp without direct injection. A 400 5.0L would be 80 hp per liter.

Our current 3V makes 65.21
Cobra R engine made 71.29
Ford new 3.5L Duratec make 75.71

Now we don't know much about the heads on the new 5.0L, except they are 4V's. Everything that I've read states that the 3V heads are on par with the 4V heads on the older Cobras. I wouldn't be suprised if the non DI engine comes in around 360ish, given the fact that Ford hasn't produced a recent V8 engine with the hp/liter to make 400hp @ 5 liters.

 

^^^ rest assured, Ford won't be using the same 4v heads - hoping they use what they've learned since then to produce "PI" 4v heads for this application.

 

Depends on the bean counters. We are talking about the company that changed the rear suspension on S197 about 1 year out from Job 1. We are too far out to get the numbers, even though FourCam says so.

 

ugh! the evil "b - word" again! bad for performance and coolness. well, as long as "they" don't let the people who did the Focus lay a finger on the Mustang's exterior. ; )

 

That's alot of pessimism in such a small post. FourCam hasn't been wrong on engines yet, rumors bout the S197's suspension aside I think we can call it as firm as it gets until Ford puts out a press release.

 

In many ways I agree. With direct injection, as with many things, the devil is in the details. A lot of the advantage to be found in direct injection is gained by other changes direct injection allows you to make and not simply by way way of the direct injection system itself. For example, direct injection engines run much lower temps in the intake and combustion chamber allowing for less fuel loss, more precise fuel delivery, and higher compression ratios. Not all of those changes are directly related to the implementation of direct injection since you could obviously switch to direct injection without raising the compression ratio or making the quench chamber smaller, but you couldn't plausibly do either of those to the same degree without direct injection and tweaks like these obviously make for more power.

The question is will Ford utilize these direct injection enabled upgrades to further hp or fuel economy? My guess is both, with the degree of change in each area depending on application/volume.

I don't think 400hp from a DOHC 5.0L is much of a stretch truth be told. First, let me say that the current 3-valve heads are in no way, shape, or form on par with even the old 4-valve heads used on the Mach-1. On the existing 4.6L you might not notice a huge improvement in naturally aspirated production trim between the two, but that has more to do with the 4.6L V8's small bore issues than 3-valve parity. With the existing bore even the 3-valve heads have valve shrouding issues which means the 4-valve units are being choked to death figuratively speaking. Slap these heads on a big bore 5.0L Mod motor and the game is going to change drastically.....the 4-valve heads are going to smoke the 3-valve units. And since much of the improvement with the new 5.0L is based on the increased bore size we can expect to see the same kind of improvement.

As for hp/per liter comparison to existing production motors the only one that applies at all IMO is the 3.5L V6, and if anything that engine reaffirms the plausibility of a 400hp 5.0L V8. In run of the mill, regular unleaded, no VVT or cam-phasing mass production trim that engine makes as much as 265hp which is extremely impressive. The addition of intake and exhaust VVT and a factory compression ratio/tune which benefits from premium gasoline would easily take this engine well past 80hp per liter and given what we see on other design, which typically aren't as fundamentally good as the Duratec, would likely manage some better than that. 80hp per liter from a 5.0L V8 isn't difficult to believe at all, particularly not when we are talking about an engine intended for performance cars.


As for those arguing that this is unlikely because Ford hasn't made changes like this in the recent past....By that standard the 3.5L V6, in both naturally aspirated and GTDi trim, are outliers too since both deliver far better power than Ford has recently seen fit to extract from similar packaging. Obviously the game has changed at Ford, why should we be surprised that these changes include the V8 engine lineup too?

 

Thats how the world works, always improving from the last. and 80hp per liter is hardly pushing an engine.

 

I guess we will have to wait and see. If Ford produces a non-DI 400HP 5.0L I will be pleasantly surprised.

I know 80 hp/liter isn’t difficult to believe. If we are talking about BMW or Audi, I would take it as fact. Coming from Ford it is hard to swallow! Like I said, Ford likes to change things at the last minute due to cost.

These engines are about 3-4 years too late IMO. By the time these engines reach the market, the competition will be introducing newer engines.

 

The 2010 Mustang and Camaro will be hitting the streets pretty close together, so unless GM is planning to slap all-new mills in it right away, I don't see where they're launching ahead. Cerebus talks a big game, bust most of their "future" plans revolve around enhancements to existing engines, not all new units. And if you think Ford makes poor decisions to save a buck, just wait until we've had 5 or 6 years of Cerebus running Chrysler. Ford already has DI to enhance the 5L, and long-term they have tech like CGI and GTDI to play with. I think they'll keep pace with the cross-towners pretty well.

 

BlueII is reporting one variant of the 5.0 is 340 (mustang) and there is a TT5.0 variant 500+hp
I know the guy knows a lot and is in the know, and I don't doubt that those engines are testing but...

I think guys quoting the 340-360hp numbers are the F150 variant,
and that the Mustang still stands at 400hp/360

With all the tech and increased bore/stroke size, I cannot see the 5.0 being JUST 340-360...
unless tehy are tuning it to be a torque machine. Which is not the case.

Still sticking with 400hp
and us not seeing a TT version for a while...

 

GM has had the LSx since 1997. The only way that Ford has been able to go toe-to-toe on hp is with a blower. It would have been nice to get this engine a few years ago, but it seems as of recently Ford is playing catch-up

Like I explained to Jsaylor a while ago, GM currently has 400+ N/A engines in their lineup without direct injection and variable valve timing. Given that CAFE has recently changed the game, I have no doubt that GM will have these technologies in their V8’s shortly to enhance fuel efficiency. You should also see a nice bump in hp too!

 

I've seen several people mention CGI but I can't seem to find any info on what it is.

 

Compacted Graphite Iron:
http://www.competitiveproduction.com...rticle_id=1388

 

CGI - Compact Graphite Iron
(Strength of Iron, slightly heavier than Al)

It was mentioned a while ago for the 5.0 but unfortunately we're headed for AL not CGI

 

For now. Ford's investment in CGI tech is increasing and I wouldn't be surprised to see it used in the TT 5L, if we see that mill, or in the 201X Mustang engines when it comes.


The LS series comes from 1997, premiering with a mighty 300 hp. The LS6 was the first LS to breach 400hp (after starting at 385) in 2002, in the limited-production Z06/CTS-V. The only VOLUME LS is the LS2, which has produced 400 hp from 2005 on. The LS3, also produced in limited numbers, makes 430 hp. Then there's the super-limited LS7/X/9/A. So on volume-production V8s producing 400hp, GM will have had the LS2 for 4 years when the 5L hits the streets in 2009 as MY 2010.

GM was certainly first, but I don't see an insurmountable lead, nor does Ford look massively behind. If the Camaro bows with the LS2, Ford will be right on par with it engine-wise. The engine may have been around since 2005, but it was barely in the US market to compete against. If the bowtie bows with the LS3, and not detuned at all from the 'Vette, then the Mustang will be down 30 whole hp while wearing a 300-500lb weight advantage.

 

The LS1 had 345 initially in the C5. The LS2 was introduced in the MY 2005 (C6), so GM has had the engine out for 5 years by 2010 MY’s are out. That’s why I said above that Ford is late to the party.

My second argument is that Ford guys are using CURRENT LS3 numbers. If we know Ford’s 5.0L specs, well so does GM. 2010 is still a ways out, so GM could easily bump the LS3 up to 450ish hp. The GM guys have the same rumors on their front. GM could add direct injection to the LS3, which will bump hp up a bit while also helping emmisions/economy.