Again I disagree. Right now Windsor is, apparently, slated to start production early enough in the 2010 calender year to potentially build engines for some 2010MY cars, or very, very early 2011MY cars at worst. We aren't even two years out at this point so the basics are all going to be pretty hard and fast at this point. There is engineering left to do, but the basics are all in place.

As for no DI, you're correct that he has hinted that this may not be there of late. But do note that he hasn't wavered from his statements regarding power delivery. In other words he is stating that this is indeed going to be a 400hp engine, he just isn't certain that it will have DI in that trim! I'd argue that it would be better if this engine made 400hp without direct injection since that would make this an easy 435-450hp engine with direct injection added. That said, I would be surprised if this doesn't have direct injection and I think he would be too. I think you are just seeing some simple honesty from him here admitting that he knows the power figures and other tidbits but isn't certain if DI is iin this same equation.

And I'll agree Ford is late to the party. But better late than never and they appear to be showing up in grand fashion late or otherwise.

No argument from me here as GM will have to bring these techs on board to keep the small-block viable. The real issue here is when they will appear and right now the General seems to be responding a bit slow. At this point there can be almost no question that Ford's GTDi V6 and 5.0L DI V8 engines will each be in full production long before GM delivers us a mainstream direct injection small-block.

I was referring to times recorded during the Lightning Lap 2007 Comparo where the Vette returned a 3:03.6 and the GT500 returned a 3:05.9. On a road course that takes three minutes plus for car in this league to lap 2.3 second is nothing, Particularly not when one is a 3900lb GT and the other a 3300lb sports car. I wouldn't sacrifice the greater civility, tunability, and practicality for a 2.3 second per lap advantage I wouldn't know existed without a stopwatch to inform me and I'm pretty sure I am not alone..

The seats are the most mystifying oversight of the Vette equation for me as well.

 

New news on the Challenger lineup pricing. The R/T model and 6 banger are closer in price than most thought. The 370HP R/T Model starts at just under $30,000 while the 250HP sixer comes in at about $22,000...... Maybe it's just me but I think these prices will also be very similar to the upcoming Camaro. Ford is still the most affordable but 300HP just doesn't sound like a big deal anymore...........

 

Depends on what equipment you get for those prices.

 

Although the Challenger R/T is under 30K MSRP. Just wait until the stealerships add their ADM markups, and by then, a fully loaded version will probably set you back around 35k.


As for the 2010 Camaro, well just remember what Bob Lutz had confirmed about the Camaro being priced as a premium coupe, and my guess, is a fully optioned version will also end up around 35k as well.


IMHO, the Mustang will continue to offer the best bang for the buck, hands down

 

I agree that the Challenger and Camaro will be more expensive than the Mustang, but not by much. It seems like since the 05' model the MSRP has increased every year. I was at a dealership recently and I couldn't spot a single GT on the lot for under $30,000. My best guess is that a fully optioned 10' GT wont be far off from the Challenger in terms of pricing. Perhaps the best bargain on the market will be the 09' model Mustangs clogging dealership lots once the 10' models hit the streets.

Though I agree the Challenger will also see ADMs I doubt it will last more than six months. Keep in mind we will see the same ADMs once the 2010 Mustang hits the streets.

 

If the pricing is in the mid $30,000 range, I would rather have an Evo X or '08 STi.

 

Official pricing and power numbers for all 3 models in the Challenger line.
http://www.motorcities.com/contents/08/2009-Dodge-Challenger-to-Start-at-$21,995_08F9F395916140.html

SE - V6 - $22,000; 4-speed Auto only; 250 hp, 250 ft-lb; power driver's seat, Stability control
R/T - V8 - $30,000; 5-speed Auto std; 370 hp, 398 ft-lb; 6 speed manual is $1,000 option and increases power and torque by 5 hp and 6 ft-lbs
SRT8 - V8 - $40,000; 5-speed Auto only; 425 hp, 420 ft-lb

If the new Mustang stays the same weight and gets the 250 hp 3.5 V6 and the 400 hp 5.0 V8, it will be quite the performance bargain for both V6 and V8 models compared to the Dodge.

 

No way Dodge can compete with the Mustang.

 

They're charging extra for the manual?

 

Chevy can keep their 3900lb Camaro, while Dodge can also keep it's 4100lb Challenger R/T. As far as I'm concerned, both cars are oversized barges.

I'll either take the plunge for the 2010/11 Mustang, or I'll just hold onto my current 05 GT.

 

My feelings exactly.

 

We may see a 350-400hp non-GDI engine in a Special Edition Mustang, but that's about it. The GDI V8 will be in the 2011MY Mustang.
I think its a shame that the new GDI engines will not be ready for the 2010 refresh.

 

I wouldn't hop on the weight of both the Challenger and Camaro. Just because the cars are heavier doesn't mean they wont perform. The 360HP 4 door G8 runs neck in neck with the current GT in every performance category chop off two doors and lose some weight, add 50HP and you got the next Camaro. If the Camaro's suspension and chassis is tuned better it could be faster even with the added bulk plus it's gonna have way more power..............but with gas creeping above $4.00 I doubt this will even matter anymore by 10' or 12'.

 

I think that the new Mustang will gain more power as opposed to weight. I think the weight of the competitors will be their downfall.

 

The new Mustang will gain weight. I don't think it will be much of a gain, but all cars gain weight today it seems. The exception are cars that use extensive Aluminum or CF.

I'd guess the curb weight of the GT is 3525-3550 due to added content.

 

Maybe I worded that wrong. I meant for the statement to say that it will gain weight AND power. However, it will gain far more power than weight.

 

That could be true when the GDI V8 arrives. The Mustang could have a faster 0-60 or 1/4 mile time, but the heavier Challenger & Camaro will still out handle it. The lack of IRS is going to hurt the Mustang.

 

I don't think the IRS will be the end all factor when it comes to handling. What about chasis stiffness, body roll, tire selection, spring rate, etc.

 

GM knows how to make a car handle. The Camaro has been wrung around the Ring. I honestly think that the IRS will definetly give the Camaro an advantage over the Mustang.

 

It should be interesting. The Mustang should come in anywhere from 360-400hp. I will believe 400hp when the car is actually in production. GM hasn't released any engine specs. Lutz said it will be a "big" engine. The latest spy shots mention an all new 6.2L as the top end motor.