So if their V6 model is going to start around $28k. I can just imagine what the base R/T V8 is going to start. I'll guess between $34-36k


As far as I'm concerned. Dodge can just keep em, as I'll be anxiously awaiting the 2011 Mustang GT.

 

It all depends how well equipped the V6 & RT models are.

The Charger SRT8 stickers for $39K incl gass guzzler w/o any options, the Challenger $40K

The Charger RT RWD stickers for ~$31,500 w/o any options. That would imply the Challenger RT would sticker for ~$32,500, but since it's low volume, they may make more things standard raising the starting price for the Challenger RT to $33K - $34K.

The $28K starting price for a V6 Challenger sounds high, CR could be wrong, but given that the Charger SXT RWD with the 3.5 V6 starts at $26,500, it is reasonable to expect the V6 Challenger with the 3.5 will be equipped the same or better than a Charger SXT. So a starting price of $28K for a V6 Challenger is not out of the question.

 

So at a starting price of $33-34k. It appears as though Dodge is going to market their Challenger R/T, as a low production model towards customers who are looking for a more refined and upscaled alternative to the Mustang.

Just as GM is going to market their upcoming Camaro, as a more upscaled and refined premium coupe.

Being as both the Challenger and Camaro, are going to be marketed as more upscaled, and refined. It would seem more than likely, that GM and Chrysler will compete head to head towards one another, rather than directly with Ford, and the 2010 Mustang.


Meanwhile, as Ford continues to market the Mustang towards it's customers who want more of an overall practical, and affordable alternative.


This should give Ford and the Mustang, the advantage in overall sales. Just as it has during the past 40+ years.

 

and that means 40+ more years of mustangs!!! maybe a hydrogen or some other alternative fuel type will be poping up within the next 5 years. Probably a demonstrator anyway. What do you guys think?

 

So will the parts swap over? or will there be another 5.0 to 4.6 type of aftermarket where they are completely seperate?

could i get a link to that discussion PM'd

 

I tend to think there won't be a lot of compatiblity. For example you won't be able to put on the new heads because the new head's bigger valves would hit the cylinder walls. While the crank may fit older blocks, the cylinder walls of the old block won't be long enough to handle the longer stroke. So don't plan on being able to bolt much of anything from the new 5.0 on an old 4.6 block.

 

well i figured it might be like the 351 is to the 5.0, i mean if they just increase the bore (?) then why cant i bore out the 4.6 I've got now to the same specs. why wouldn't that work, unless they are using a completely different block, which i cant see ford doing...we all know they're cheap bastards.....i mean even the 5.0 isnt a true 5.0 its like a 4.97 or something like that, i can see putting a .30-.40 over and being ok.

**I'm just wondering, i wont be doing this, i like my car stock.

 

Significantly overboring a modern engine is an excersize in frustration. There typically isn't enough metal to significantly overbore the block to a meaningful degree. I suppose this trend started back in the 50's as casting techniques and technology allowed the introduction of thinwall blocks following through to today where engines have been paired down to the minimum. Where it was common in the past to be able to bore even .030" or .040" and sometimes even .060" on a production block, it seems most current engines cannot tolerate more than a .010" or .020" overbore and anything larger requires sleeving the block (if there is space).

Of course the aftermarket provides some good alternatives depending on the engine, I know there are a good many blocks (not mod motors mind you) that are capable of taking a hefty .125" or more out of the cylinder.

 

Found some info on the upcoming Camaro:

How much does it weigh? - Unspecific answer, more than a '69.
Does it weigh under 4k lbs? - Yes.
How big is it? - Bigger than a '69 (this reference was common)
Any idea on engines? - Nothing solid, one variant does have a supercharger.
How many different models? - No definitive answer, but they have seen 3.
Was the Mustang used as a comparison? - The GT500 was used as a benchmark.
The usual what are the performance/hp numbers? - No information set.
Has anything like a hud option been seen? - Nothing has been seen.
Any information on adjustable/magnetic ride suspension? - No information.
Any information on the IRS? - No specifics.. other than its not the one used in the GTO

More Details: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3589

 

3999lbs is under 4000
Whole lotta nothing in those answers

 

See, the problem is that guys with their Bowties on too tight read that and thing "OMG! The base Camaro willl be better than the GT-500!!" More than likely it was the SS/Z28 being matched against it, but this is how the "Dudes, the Camaro is going to cream the Mustang in every way!" bull gets started.

 

Should REALLY say "the current GT500 was used as a benchmark... for the Z28/SS model"

 

I have no doubt that the SS/High End Camaro will be better than the GT500. GM knows how to build world class performance cars. Ford on the other hand...

 

Nothing I've seen indicates anything of the sort. In fact, what I have seen makes me think GM may have botched the **** out of this one. I think GM has left the door wide open for the 2011MY Mustang to put a serious hurting on the new Camaro. And if GM hasn't moved Camaro to the smaller, lighter, less expensive Alpha platform by 2013....assuming that platform actually makes it to production....the GRWD based Mustang is almost certain to give the Chevy major grief.

 

I think that GM and Dodge, forced to base their Pony Cars off rather large existing RWD platforms, may be somewhat out of synch with the demands of upcoming economy and emission laws, never mind $4+dollar gas, regardless of how well executed these designs are (which they seem to be). Presuming the '10 Stang doesn't indulge in the usual new(ish) model bloat, it may enjoy a 300-500 lb overall weight advantage, which is pretty huge. Hopefully Ford will be aggressive in leveraging this advantage -- six speed, 5.0 GDI -- and match their other assets -- IRS, big brakes -- to boldly confront the challengers.

However, given Ford's "good enough" mentality when it comes to developing the Stang and their cash-strapped financial straights, I'm tempering my hopes that Ford would deliver a knockout punch in round one.

 

When the GDI V8 arrives, the Mustang will be in great shape. A few years later, we will have the redesign.
The Camero & Challenger will prosper for a year or two, then it will be back to the drawing board. That is unless GM & Chrysler calls it quits on those projects.

 

GM has a better engine platform....LSx series
GM has engineers that know how to build a performance car at a relative cheap price..Z06
GM participates in factory sponsored racing...C6R/CTSV

From a performance standpoint, Ford is way behind unless they have something serious under their sleaves.

 

I disagree. At this point we effectively know that a 5.0L DI V8 is on the way to replace the existing 4.6L Mod motor engines starting in the 2011MY (possibly earlier. We even know that Windsor is retooling for it as we speak, and we also know that this engine is rumored to be making at least 400hp and 360lb-ft of torque. Some have disparaged these numbers as baseless rumors but the truth is that far too much evidence is out there to dismiss this now and GM has nothing in the V8 pipeline remotely ready to counter this engine. At the moment they need 1.2L more displacement to create that level of hp and their LSX engines will absolutely require more fuel than the 5.0L to hit that mark.

Your singing the praises of a company that can cram a 500hp pushrod V8 into a 70k car? Fast? Yes, Affordable? C'mon. The fact that GM has so much trouble figuring out how to put together a worthy performance car for less than 30k has been a vast part of their undoing IMO. And here with the Camaro were seeing it again. Overweight and almost certainly overbudget the upcoming Camaro is the wrong car at the wrong time.

And that has thus far contributed greatly to the sub 30k performance car market how? I'll answer my own question....it hasn't.

Reality is the exact opposite. With the Mustang alone Ford has trumped the entire GM performance car lineup by offering a fast, attractive, compelling coupe that people actually want to drive daily for less than 30k. So long as GM doesn't have a plausible answer that makes the company money they are nothing more than an also ran in the American performance car market. And right now, the Camaro is looking like less and less of an answer.

 

While i like the Z06 and ZR1...
... they are already on an established car platform that is shared with the base corvette and the Caddy XLR...to help spread the cost out.

Smart move, but that's how it stays affordable.
Had they not had to share a platform and R/D, the Z06 would cost in the Ford GT territory or well over.

 

You are speaking in terms of rumors. GM has an engine in production that gets close to 30 mpg and makes 430hp. Displacement is king in making overall hp, so I’d rather take the larger engine. The funny thing is that it’s taken this many years for Ford to finally come close to the LSx series engine. GM is also developing refinements to the small block.


Yes, it is an affordable supercar. Until the GTR, there was nothing that came close. Again, we are talking about rumors. Has the cost and weight of the Camaro officially been released? Like I said earlier, GM knows how to build lightweight cars if they put some cash into it.

The new SS models actually perform very well, due to their track testing at the ‘Ring. So your answer is incorrect to a large degree. GM engineers use engineering principles learned on the race track and use them in their “performance” brands”.


I am talking about performance, not sales. What enthusiasts buy a performance car for! Hell, look at the GT500. Ford built a car with a ton of hp and it cannot beat a base C6 ette. Now I know that Ford fans will say they are two different cars, but they do get cross shopped a ton.

I like cars in general and am not a Ford guy at heart, so take it at that. My opinion is that GM is a better overall performance brand. My next car will most likely be a C6 Vette unless Ford does some major work on the S197.