No way, unless Crapster sells them at a loss. The Challenger is built on a more expensive platform. Although some of the Challengers costs are leveraged off the 300 & Charger it won't be cheap to manufacture.

 

I understand that the platform is supposed to be the more expensive but their SRT8 is actually a bit cheaper than the GT500. I also agree that much of the cost can be absorbed by the fact that the platform is something fairly familiar to Mopar and so is the 5.7 HEMI.

 

The GT-500 is priced more on what Ford marketing thinks the market will bear, not manufacturing cost. The SRT-8 Challenger will have the postive effect of putting pricing pressure on the GT-500, ending any remaining ADMs and dare I say will lead to discounts and incentives in the GT-500' final years.

While the SRT-8 Challenger is obviously a head to head competitor with the GT-500, I really question how much the lesser Challenger models will compete with the Mustang. The Challenger is a huge, heavy car, 198" long (10" longer than the Mustang) and 4,150 lb. I view the Challenger as a toy car and not a daily driver. Chrysler seems to agree with my assessment as they're already mumbling about the Challenger only stiking around for 2 or 3 years.

 

i'm not talking ADMs. The SRT8 Challenger has a lower MSRP than the GT500

 

I wouldn't really consider the challenger that much of a competitor. It pulls out about the same times as a stock GT and at 4,100 lbs, there is not much to do to get more speed out of it except for dumping the interior... It may be $38k, but I don't think it's going to be competition for long. Chrysler will dump it in a few years and we'll be back to just the mustang and MAYBE camaro.

 

13.01 is quicker than a GT

 

At $38k MSRP. It sure had better be quicker than a GT. Although the Challenger SRT8 may cost 2-3k less than the GT500 at MSRP. The GT500 weighs less than the Challenger, and has 75 more HP. Just my $.02

 

Don't forget the $2,163 gas guzzler tax, which bumps the MSRP of a SRT-8 Challenger to $39,962.

 

Along with the 20k ADM markup. Here's the link from the planet Challenger website.

http://www.planetchallenger.com/gene...se-071206.html

 

I know I have posted this in the past but don't you guys think that Ford should reintroduce either the T-bird or the Cougar? It seems that Ford's retro styling would make an awesome cougar or successor to the 2000-2005 T-birds just give em' more power and have Ford compete with the new competiton with more coupes to choose from.

 

I'd like to see both the T-Bird and Cougar return, but I just don't see how Ford could profitably bring them back.

The Mercury brand is moving towards life support. If Ford brings out another coupe, it will be a Lincoln model built off the next generation Mustang platform.

 

I wish I had a link or exact quotes but if I recall correctly I remember Ford saying that they had plans of bringing back the T-Bird again eventually.....like right around the time they stopped producing the last gen 05? I think it was Fields or Bill Clay who said they would bring a next gen T-Bird in the future? Is it just me or does anyone else remember that?

I really liked the retro 2000-05 T-Birds to me it was the first real precursor to the 05' Mustang. The build quality and refinement was top notch. The major gripe I had with the car where it's engine and the lack of an SVT model. Perhaps if it were given a second gen they would have fixed those common gripes concerning performance and even given the car a bit more of a muscular look. It was a cool car (won car of the year for 00') but a bit pricey and lacked the Corvette performance for a Corvette price.........

As far as the Cougar goes, I don't see all that much risk involved. I know i'm not a bean counter for Ford but do cars like the Milan and Sable really add much more cost over the Fusion and Taurus? I think a Mercury Cougar would need less sales numbers than the Challenger and Camaro to be profitible if it is just a reskinned Mustang with a couple luxury options. I would really like the option of getting a Cougar to stand out from the Mustang crowd

 

The problems with the 05 Thunderbird were obvious....terrible proportions and performance which simply wasn't good enough. The classic long-hood, short deck proportions of the tri-five Birds the latest model was intended to ape were MIA. Also, the doors/cockpit were positioned much too far forward making the car look more like a Sebring-based, new age, tri-Five inspired kit car than the personal luxury car revival it was intended to be.

As for power, Ford displayed a supercharged version of the Thunderbird which would have gone some way toward remedying that issue. But the reality is that the base 4.0L would still have been underpowered and the supercharged version would have simply been a case of asking significantly more money for the kind of power the standard Thunderbird should have come with in the first place.

I think Ford's recent consideration of a retractable hardtop Mustang, and the Mustang's eventual future migration onto the GWRD platform, provide a prime opportunity for a proper Thunderbird revival. Shortening the Mustang's version of GWRD about six inches behind the doors would yield a platform just about perfect for Thunderbird duty IMO. Give the car distinctive style, a more upscale version of the classic 'twin cockpit' interior both the Mustang and Thunderbird have employed in the past (some of the basics of the same could be shared with upmarket Mustang models, even if the Bird would have more of a luxury bend) and a more luxury oriented list of options and features (magnetic ride control, memory tilt/telescoping steering and mirrors, standard leather and upmarket sound sytem, etc) and Ford could field a retractable hardtop Thunderbird which would likely cannibilize fewer sales from the Mustang ragtop than a simple RHT pony would.

Windshield touchdown points would be nearly identical to the Mustang which would make same line production simple. And the relatively high volume GRWD platform should allow for good economy of scale. A base Thunderbird which possesses proportions similar to a Mercedes SL or Aston Martin Vantage offering a 400+hp 5.0L DOHC V8 as standard and a GTDi 5.0L V8 producing at least 100hp more than that as an option would make for a heck of a competitor to the BMW Z4, Audi TT, Porsche Boxster, and Chevy Corvette.

 

Man, I hope Ford has both small and big car GRWD platforms. The Challenger and F5 are both based on big car platforms and that hasn't helped much in the weight department. I can't see a GRWD Mustang sheding more than a few pounds using a big car plateform, that is unless Ford really can come down on weight. If they have a GRWD plateform that will cover all thier RWD applications and its faily light (like say 3500 lbs for whatever is the big car) then thats an easy pill to swallow, however in a case like the Challenger (with virtually no weight loss) and in the case of the F5 (which is more than likely only about 200 pounds lighter than the G8) its gonna make for a porky Mustang.

 

I think Ford and many of the other auto makers should invest in mass producing carbon fiber. After a couple years of mass production the price of this material should drop, we have superior material and cars can shave a lot of unwanted weight. Imagine how much lighter the current gen car would be if all the body panels were made of carbon fiber.

 

I'm with you here. IMHO the answer is to approach these platforms differently than Chrysler and GM seem to have done. Most platforms intended to underpin a wide breadth of vehicles still seem to have a 'sweet spot' where a particular vehicle appears to have been the driving force behind that platforms development and thus the platform fits that car best with everything else adapting to suit.

....For the LX/LY platforms at Chrysler the 300 and Charger sedans were obviously what engineers had in mind when they cooked up the platform and because of this we now get a large and heavy Challenger made to fit a platform ideally suited for larger cars.

....For GM's Zeta platform Holden sedans were obviously the driving force behind the platform and again we are seeing a relatively large, and potentially heavy, Camaro as a result.

....Nissan's FM platform is another example with the 350Z again being a bit on the heavy side likely because the darling of this particular platform was no doubt Infiniti's G and M sedans. As such, this platform was designed to best suit those larger cars with the 350Z making obvious concessions to fit.

IMO the new Audi MLP platform is a perfect example of the opposite approach. By all appearances MLP was designed with the A4 and other similarly sized cars, like the A5, as the ideal base application. This is a far better approach IMO since larger model potentially stand to benefit from a platform which is inherently lightweight and inexpensive compared to what it might have been had the A8 been the primary target. The difference here is a 'lets design a very good platform for the A4 and A5 which is flexible enough in concept to accommodate an A6 and even an A8' rather than a 'let's build a 300 or Commodore platform that we can yank a few inches out of to render a Challenger or Camaro' approach.

The really interesting bit here is that the new A4 and A5 aren't exactly small cars with wheelbases starting at 108inches and width already sufficient, in the case of the A5, to underpin a suitable A8 model with little adjustment. I think the difference is in mindset as much as application. If you know you're designing a platform for a smaller car then cost and weight are obviously of greater concern, and the MLP platform shows the benefits of that approach. Audi's engineers didn't ignore the needs of the A6 and A8, these cars had to be a consideration during the design phase, they simply didn't allow those cars to dictate, and therefore handicap, their program. In the end I think that every car on the new MLP platform will be better for it.

My hope is that the Mustang and possibly a sedan roughly the size of the upcoming A4 are the primary targets for the GRWD platform and that larger adaptations for vehicles like the Australian Falcon will be made to adapt to the needs of those vehicles instead of the opposite.

 

I remember the comments about bringing the T-Bird back too. There was nothing of substance in those comments. At that time there were plans for a D/EW-98-II platform that would spawn a new Lincoln Continental and a new Ford flagship 4 seat model T-Bird, but everything related to those projects has long been canceled.

Among the many problems the old T-Bird suffered from were, it weighed almost 4,000 lbs, whimpy, walloly boulevard suspension, more body / chassis shake than a paint mixer, a useless trunk, and such a low roofline that anyone over 5'8" had trouble fitting it it.

The Milan is nothing more than a Fusion with a different grille and tail lights. If you want a Cougar that is nothign more than a Mustang with a waterfall grille and different tail lights, Ford could oblige without loosing any $$ on it. However, coming up with a Cougar that had completely different body panels and a more extensive option list thatn the Mustang could not be profitably done.,

 

I find it kind of funny how we brought innermanufacturer competition into this thread...lol I don't think the T-bird is even a glimmer in Fords eye since the new CAFE standards were passed.

 

IMO history screams a resounding YES!. Having worked for a GM dealership for 30+ years, I remember the terrible years when Chevrolet was proud of such cars as the Citation, boasting it to be one of the first cars with an on-board computer to control engine function.
It was 2 years later, that imports really hit the US-market- HARD! I can still remember the "talk" that trickled down from GM--corperate, ---groanings of "We need to do something and we need to do it fast!" That year, Chevy came out with the Cavalier, an improvement over the Citation, but still a S.B.O.W . (s#!t box on wheels). But it was an improvement. Since then the cavalier has been replaced by the Colbalt, another improvement. Why? Competition, both here and, more importantly,the import market. But, just like "Racing improves the breed" so does competition. I just hope FoMoCo makes all others play by their rules in the styling dept. European styling can be a bit gaud-awful at times. I hate the ' jelly-bean' look of most foreign cars today.

 

I gotta disagree for the most part. I think 350Z/G35 and most import buyers are different buyers than us Mustang buyers, Maybe an SE like the GT500 might lure one of these but I personally don't think a V6 or GT will.

While the Mustang is an affordible straight line missile with a rough around the edges charm with a big V8 and retro styling, imports have a decidedly different character.

Most imports take a modern look and though not the most powerful spend their money on refinement and polish. I'm not saying that the Mustang is a tin can or anything but it doesn't have the polish of the typical Japanese sports car. Another key issue is handling..... If Ford WANTS to steal some import buyers they must make the current car handle worlds better than the current gen and should seriously consider IRS,AWD, paddle shifters etc... to broaden the car's appeal.

I think Ford should seriously upgrade the current crappy U.S. spec Focus to compete along side the imports I feel it would be a great competitor if Ford offered it's Euro spec cars with availible AWD, Turbo 4 or V6. Many people forget but the Ford Focus was once a dominant force in rally racing which spawned successful imports like the EVO and STI!

I myself have a respect for many great Japanese sports cars like the 350Z, RX8, STI, EVO and Supra along with the others I may have forgot but I still like the charm of a simple RWD V8 Muscle car. If pure track performance was all I was interested in i'd probably own a Subaru STI which will run circles around my 03' Cobra on a race track but having driven one I feel that it isn't as fun to drive as a good old American V8, while the STI driver would find a nose heavy RWD V8 not as fun.. I think different strokes for different folks I guess......