The early 70's....however history of what they sold really isn't a factor or the point here. Right now there is a shortage of Muscle cars....you have Mustang and Corvette...which really isn't in the same class but that is it. Back when the Challenger was around there was a TON of competition for the same market....today choices are severly limited so you can't compare history from 40 years ago and make a market prediction today.

That really wasn't the Muscle car era so I don't even consider that worth even remembering.

True and I think that without the Hemi there is no future for a Chrysler Muscle car....unless they come out with something earth shattering that is better and more efficient. I see a lot of talk about how heavy the Challenger is at 3900-4000lbs......but I've got news for you...the Mustang is NOT 3450lbs.....The Mustang has been tipping the scales near 4,000 lbs for years. During some of my time with magazine features my '87 Lincoln Mark VII LSC weighed in during a MM&FF test at 3980lbs with full tank and Evan Smith as driver.....MM&FF also tested a 2001 Bullitt Mustang with a full tank and Evan as driver and guess what....coincidentally it weighed in at 3980lbs!!! the New Mustang is just as heavy if not heavier. If you are getting the weight from the door sticker then that is the wrong information to look at as it does not reflect the actual car weight...only capacity. Take any S197 Mustang by a truck scale and then report back here what you find.....I can promise you that your numbers are wrong. I have 2 86 SVO Mustangs.....one race car and one street car...both weigh in at roughly 3100lbs...you are telling me that the new LARGER Mustang with a V8, air bags and all the extra goodies only weighs 350lbs more than the SVO....Not a chance! I've had a number of these cars on scales so I am not just repeating information from "somewhere"....these are real life numbers.

 

even if this is the case that means that the challenger tipping in at 3900 the driven weight will be around 4400 to 4500 lbs. so we end up with the exact same senerio of weight difference.

 

FYI-I didn't just pull any numbers from 'somewhere', as your posts suggests, (unless you were just flat calling me a liar and I missed it.) Since individual vehicles weigh varying amounts, depending on options, fuel levels, even to what wheels and tires are mounted, how would you compare weights for each individual unit produced? Hey, I've got an idea, why not compare the curb weight published by the manufacturer? It may not be 100% accurate, but it's quicker (and more practical) than running each new vehicle over a truck scale.

The weight of a Mustang GT Bullitt, Charger vs Mustang: Motor Trend according to this test is 3513. Is Motor Trend lying? Why would Motor Trend lie about the weight of the vehicle they tested? Email them. Call them out on it, maybe they'll change that number based on your experience. Let me know how that works out.

According to Edmunds a Premium, 2007 Mustang GT has a base weight of 3356-lbs, Emunds 2007 Ford Mustang Specs. Call Edmunds--tell'em they got it all wrong.

BTW, the weight number of 3902-lbs for the Holden Commodore was from Edmunds Inside line, weight as tested, not pulled from 'somewhere'. Are you suggesting Edmunds is lying about the weight of the vehicle they tested? Holden Commodore SS,

BTW, if your still reading and not checking your scale, Charger vs GTO Motor Trend shows the 2006 Charger SRT8 listed at 4266-lbs. Looks to be heavier than a Mustang, but then again they may be lying. (Can't trust them d*mn testers at Motor Trend.)

 

I'm shocked about the HEMI news. Unless Dodge has another decent V8 we don't know about in the works then the Challenger will be a one cycle car of 4-6yrs of production. Even if sales are slow Dodge is probly gonna try to get as many of them made as possible.

I have a feeling all of the US brands will finds ways here n there to make the cars good on gas and powerful. I think we are just gonna have to wait for the technology to catch up like in the first muscle car era

 

I'm not posative but I think those manufacturer weights given are the cars without any gas or fluids inside the vehical. Though I admit it wouldnt make a difference since the Charger is weighed the same way so yes the Challenger will be the heavier car. If the Mustang is a couple hundred lbs heavier in reality than so is the Challanger

 

Dry weight, is generally used to describe the weight of the vehicle without fluids.

Most of the weights you see posted in magazines (or like Edmunds), reference 'curb weight'. As a general rule, that means the weight of the vehicle, with standard equipment, operating fluids (motor oil and coolant) and a full tank of gas. Curb weight does not include the weight of the driver or any passengers. This is not however universal. Different government regulatory bodies may have more specific rules.

In Europe, curb weight also includes a standard weight for the vehicle driver, but not any passengers. I don't know if any US passenger vehicle regulations measure weight this way.

Most magazine comparos, like Road and Track, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc. will specify 'curb weight' when they list the weight of the vehicles they test.

 

Not calling you a liar just stating that I feel you are misinformed. I talk real world numbers and in that sense in no way is any S197 Mustang Under 3500lbs....seriously, drop by a scale and weigh it...see for yourself. Fuel, wheels, options are not going to make up a 500lb difference. Quicker does not good if it is not accurate...sorry but that's my opinion....I'd rather discuss real world numbers than published ones.

Yes...I have no problem challenging Motor Trend on that...do you believe EVERYTHING you read in a magazine? I hope not.

It's simple...go put one on a scale....I don't have anything to prove, I know from experience the numbers I am talking about. Even many dragstrips have scales...try one...just like the dyno, it can be a humbling experience. Oh, and for the record....back at the MCA 30th show at Barbers I drove Ford's GT 500 with the Ford Mustang Brand Marketing manager and he told me the new GT500 weighed over 4,000lbs....are YOU suggesting that he lied?!? We can play this game all day.....all it takes is a scale, are you up for the challenge?

Btw, this is a discussion.....no need for attitude

 

You're right--my apologies for rudeness. And you do have me curious--I'm going to find a scale and see just what my 2006 GT weighs. And I suspect you're right probably not under 3,500--it does have quite a few options including the 18" tires and rims. But if if weighs 4,000-lbs, I'll buy you a beer.

You may to prefer 'real world' numbers. It's true I can run my Mustang over a scale and get the actual weight. But you have to concede that tells you about the weight of my Mustang--not the weight of your Mustang, nor the actual weight of the Mustang in any Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Edmunds test. And I do not have a Holden Monaro, nor G8/Commodore SS to run across a scale. Real world or not, the only comparison I have is published curb weight number. If they are measured by standard methods--a common yardstick, then the weight variance can be determined.

Do I read everything I read in a magazine? Unequivically, no. Do I believe everything I read posted on an internet forum--(you get the idea, I'm sure.)

 

I thought that the S197 weighed considerably more than the SN95

I weighed my 2000 GT on a platform scale and it weighed:

3620# with a full tank and me in it (185#)

 

Well, no prediction is completely accurate. But past history is exactly how sales are forecasted.

Look at the new Challenger, Camaro, and Mustang--notice a retro theme? It's not an accident. Mustangs were very popular, late 60's--Ford marketing made a calculated decision to go with a retro theme to capitalize on the nostalgia market. Boomers who couldn't afford a Mustang at the time, but wanted one, middle-aged crazies wanting a Mustang to help re-capture an earlier time in their life. Of course, you don't have to buy into it. But anyone would be foolish to ignore that element in marketing a product.

The new Camaro shares much of the same history. In addition the Camaro has a pent-up demand from the recent passing of the last F-bodies. Not only do they have nostalgia to draw on, they have fans ready to trade their '02 for an '09-10.

It wasn't an accident that the new Challenger looks like the 70, and not the 78--sales. If past history didn't matter Chrysler could sell as many Challengers playing up the design cues of the 78 Mitsubishi Galant/Challenger as borrowing from the 70 model--but you know that isn't so.

Ford and Chevy are in much better shape, marketing wise with the Mustang and Camaro, there is simply a much larger base to market to--its basically a numbers game.

You really can't predict the future--(my crystal ball is on the blink), but those who can't remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

3620-185 = 3435 Curb weight. But even adding 600-lbs still short of 4,000. I'm sure the S197 is heavier--but 600-lbs heavier?

 

I can agree with that and that history does help forcast but my point was just that back then there were a LOT of other cars for people to choose from and now it is fairly limited. You will always have the Mustang and Camaro faithful but back then you could buy on the Ford side a Cougar, Fairlane, Torino, Falcon, etc...whereas now we have....The Mustang and that is about it. Chevrolet back then had the Chevelle, Impala, Nova, Camaro, Corvette, etc....right now they have the Corvette...and soon the Camaro. Dodge/Plymouth also had a lot to choose from and now have nothing. The pickins are just much more slim and limited now compared to back then.

As far as modeling after older cars (retro) it's a natural for the '60's styles....I think copying the 70's cues would be suicide for a manufacturer.

 

Certain designs just don't wear well. I think we can agree Chrysler probably will not resurrect the look of the K-cars any time soon.

 

Let's hope not....please!

 

who cares how much the weigh? what if it weigh's 8000 lbs? it still does 0-60 in 4.9-5.1 ..faster than alot of cars lol.

but theres NO way a Gt weighs 4000, unless you have the optional fat-*** package or something.

 

My loaded 07 GT (M5, sans shaker 500, but everything else) with me in it and a half tank of gas weighed in at 3820 pounds (fuel and my hefty butt account for 353 pounds of weight), 3820 - 353 = 3,467.

The car was scaled at Bud's Creek using a digital scale.

 

M.M.& Fast Fords listed the Bullitt as 3650# with driver and a 1/4 tank of 93.
My car with no shaker w/nav and cloth seats (also no spoiler) s/b even less.

 

Cylinder de-activation seems to work better on the EPA test than in the real world.

The 300C has received several "awards" for having the GREATEST difference between it's EPA mileage and real world mileage. That is the Hemi gets significantly worse real world mileage than it's EPA #s.

 

Just a thought--maybe it's not the Camaro, or Challenger that will shape the direction of future Mustangs. I'm guilty of thinking in those terms, mainly because of my age. SVOPaul made a comment about the numerous choices that buyers had in the late 60's Chevelle, GTO, Torino, etc.--nameplates that don't exist today. But it occurred to me, imports didn't hold the market share then that the do now.

Maybe future Mustangs will be influenced as much or more by imports than by domestic competitors? Directly, or indirectly could the future pony car be shaped by Nissan, Toyota, or even Hyundai?

The 350Z is sometimes a competitor, with both the Z, and the Mustang running a potent V6, will there be more cross-shopping? Will there be a trickle down effect from the AWD GT-R?

The has been rumors Toyota may be getting back in the game with a new Supra--probably as a direct competitor to the GT-R. There is a concept out there.

The have been rumors floating around for sometime about a V8 from Honda.

And Hyundai (Genesis concept) is showing a RWD V8 machine that looks like it might be marketed against the G37. It might not be too much of a stretch to see it in a coupe form.

Opinions--will imports factor as much, or more in shaping the future Mustang as domestic competition?

 

Good point and one that I missed as well.....I think there is some competition from the imports.....and with fewer domestic choices in a Muscle car it wouldn't surprise me for the import mfgs to look into some of that market.

I do think there is a real difference in the type of people who are diehard Muscle car enthusiasts and while that might make it more difficult to sway them into an import performance car...it is not impossible.