Tweet :notnice: Incomplete evaluation! One test over one un-specified (MMR?) CAI does not equate to "...will pick up big over any other kit on the market." Please try again.

The Boss Hog

 

There is something that I think people should realize about the difference in pricing between the products. The sale price for the JLT/SCT combo is (I believe) $549, and you are purchasing it directly from him. The retail price for our system is $749, and if you look around, you will find that the lowest advertised price for the complete combo is $675. That is a $125 price difference between the two kits. People who buy directly from us pay retail, because we can not be in direct competition with our distributors.
If you do not feel that the difference in the materials and manufacturing processes between the two systems, along with the additional features of the Predator tuner (Data logging and the ablility to CHANGE the tune yourself) are not worth the extra money, then that is your opinion. Also, keep in mind that our distributors, who act as middlemen, must also make money off the sale of our products as well. Consider these factors, and I am sure that you won't believe that we are asking "too much" for our system, nor are we trying to make an excessive profit margin that takes advantage of our customers...

Lee

 

Blk05GT

I went over to the shop that you went to today, and I may take my car on their dyno this next week.

They also told me that of the two 05 Mustangs that they have pulled on their dyno with underdrive pullies, the gain in RWHP was only 2. :bang: Makes one wonder where the guys of Sportscar Revolution got 8 hp from today, when they added underdrive pullies to an 05 Mustang?

 

Justin you've always come across as a fairly reasonable guy, though your posts in this topic are, to put it mildly, shameful. Remember how offended you were when a few folks took shots at your rather "unique" styling choices with your "GT 500." Remember how quick most of us were to defend you, your choices, and your fundamental right to use whatever hardware you wanted without fear of ridicule or harassment?

Ironic, it seems, that YOU now resort to excrement metaphors to degrade a piece of hardware that you happened not to purchase. Do you have any idea how many of your fellow forum mates have that "turd" pipe on their vehicles or on order? I wonder how they feel now knowing that you, the Mighty VegasJay, want to reduce their mods to 7 dollars of sewer conduit from the local hardware store.

To my knowledge, no one has EVER badmouthed the C&L, called it a product that "didn't work" or an "inferior" piece etc. On the contrary, the overwhelming majority of posters consider the C&L to be a high quality (if pricey) setup. Now JLT has been on the scene for what, maybe a month now? Almost everyone who has used Jay's setup has seen solid if not outstanding results. Even our tuning "legends" (Bryan) are giving the "new kid" a fair shake. And yet when one, count it, ONE poster comes along with an incorrect tune and some less than favorable results, you respond that the "truth is starting to emerge." I believe a brief review of probability theory may be in order. :nono:

Leaving our opinions aside, we might get better traction on this issue by examiniing the available evidence. Though I have yet to compile the data, one could envision a simple dataset with posted hp and torque gains and the relevant statistics (percent changes, means, standard deviations etc) for each CAI type. We might then weight these raw scores by inverse of the price, for an accurate "value" estimate. Having eyeballed the various numbers posted on this site, I think we both know what those results will show (the weighted results in particular), but I will certainly let the data speak for themselves... B)

In any event, what happend to the days when Mustang enthusiasts WELCOMED good mods at good prices, whether they owned them or not? A Mustang/GTO "rivalry" makes sense. A CAI "rivalry" strikes me as patently lame. :notnice:
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Tony, you have the "spin" on this whole thing wrong. What I purchased has nothing to do with this mess. I too am in the persuit of the best Mod's for the money, and post here to help and learn. Most importantly I AM NOT Bashing any member on this site for buying a JLT intake. Not even in the slightest way, am I aiming anything in that direction. If anything I said made anyone feel like that I scincerly appologize.

I say these things to Tucker, aka, Jay, aka JLT. Tucker did "dig" at the C&L intake. I don't think it was right, and it did upset me. In my persuit to build up my car, Lee from C&L has been a very helpful, stand-up guy with years of racing under his belt. He went way above and beyond the call of duty to help me get the result's I wanted. I don't forget thing's like that. I have been watching this topic very closely, and watching Tucker's "tactic's" and coment's as he "badmouth's" other product's and try's to "sway" people to buy his product. I just don't think it's right, period.

It's one thing to post on this site, result's of a product. It's another IMO to do as Tucker has done and BADMOUTH other product's(Heck it's on the bottom of his Sig for god's sake!), and worse than that is craming it down everybody's throat every little chance he can! If it was good he wouldn't need to do that IMO.

I whole heartedly welcome "good mod's at good prices". As a Mustang enthusiast I love having a large assortment of mod's to choose from. I just don't want to see anyone here get swayed and bagered by someone that "Bag's" on companies with a long history of providing top quality part's!

I have run C&L in the past, and yes they have earned my respect, and loyalty. I will stand up for them, and that's what I've done. If the JLT intake was the better intake (which I don't believe it is) , Tuckers method's is what I disagree with most.

 

My Math is fine. Your number's are not however.....I have read the fact's, that's why I'm making a stand for what's right, and it's not you. I joined this site to learn and help, why did you? From what I can see, to sell your product by trashing other's and shamless self promotion. There-in lies the problem.

BTW: It's Vegas.....get it right.

 

mark, these not true. i installed the sct,pullies,removal of trap and got 32hp. 23hp from sct and 1-2 hp from trap and 8-9 hp from pullies. march 23 i will try a cai and once and for all will end this topic. we'll see how much a cai really makes with this stang. this topic is driving me nuts!! i wish the 23rd was here today already. :bang:

 

I have a question about the C&L intake--can it be ceramic coated (e.g. JetHot or the like)? I just don't know if aluminum takes these coatings. If so, that would be a very nice option that would put to rest the convection issues that an aluminum intake may have, at least in theory.

 

As a Mechanical Engineer and son of a plumber I'm almost tempted to stop at Home Depot and try a real 'turd' pipe and rubber elbow! Luckily my brother-in-law has an automotive dyno so I can check different types without losing $$$$ for the runs. If I do it I'll definitely post results. I've never seen such lively conversation on a subject!!! Keep up the spirit!!!

 

I am waiting on the .bmps of my dyno pull today, but to break the good news to everyone... I am proud to say I installed Lee's C&L CAI and had a SCT tune done to my '05. 89 Octane program.

Baseline pull = 262 rwhp/278 rwtq
After C&L CAI install and SCT tune (final) = 285 rwhp/293 rwtq.

That's a gain of 23 hp and 15 ft lbs. Great product Lee!!! Car runs great! Can't thank you enough for the help today at Walkers!

Chad

 

elvism

What brand of pullies did you buy? Just curious if that would matter?

 

Actually Boss Hog, you are very wrong! This was a very controlled test and the JLT killed the "other" kit I had. Plain and simple and I am not the only one. The shop that does my tuning is a very well known shop and is seen in Mustang magazine articles almost every month, I think they know what they are doing. Chris Johnson tuned my car with the old kit so I know it was at its peak numbers!

 

Congrats Those are solid gains, especially with a low octane program (not that I blame you, petrol prices are supposed to rise another 25 cents next month :bang: )

 

OK, I tried to be humorous, but that's not working. For some reason, you insist on answering a question that I did not ask. Not once have I questioned your statement about picking up some gains over some other un-named CAI. So, let's try this. For the record you stated in part:

<!--QuoteBegin-turbochad@March 4, 2005, 11:50 PM
..., but if the car is tuned for his kit it will pick up big over any other kit on the market.

Quoted post

[/quote]
The operative words are "big" and "any". In order to make that statement, you must obviously have completed a comprehensive test program on the half-dozen or so CAI systems currently available for the '05 Mustang. Please provide dates, vehicle configurations and certified SAE corrected dyno results for all CAI's currently on the market. Please include number of runs completed on different days to ensure repeatability of results and the parameters of the "tunes" used with each CAI. Also, it would help in the evaluation of those results if you would define the specific numerical differences required in order to be classified as "big". Thank you.

The Boss Hog

 

OK Vegas, I'm interested in when I bashed or put down C&L. Seems you may be the only one thinking this. You are the one bashing here.
Bashing a product you have never seen or tried. :nono: It seems even your friends are suprised at your actions.
A customer posted results with the JLT beating the C&L in a independent 3rd party test, that I wasn't even at and I'm bashing?

What I did do it post the results and why I use a paticular material over aluminum. I also compaired pricing to the other kits out there. (this isn't smart?? :scratch: )I'm a new company and need to be on the boards promoting it. Everyone has heard of C&L and K&N, (awesome for them), but JLT is new and different. I hope to be in there ranks someday.
If being here answering questions and answering the phone is the wrong way to build the company name, I'm sorry.

I have seen the C&L in person and actually have Lee's product on my Cobra. (95mm MAF, imagine that). I do agree it is a nice looking kit, but I never said it wasn't.

And Lee, I have heard wonderful things about you and your customer service. If you took the thing I have said wrong or out of context, then I appoligise. I was only stating my views and some facts.

I will change my sig out of respect for another vendor, not for you Vegas.

What's better for a product then happy customers?
Thanks Lilhog, angcobra, 2k5GT

 

You forgot me. By the way I need a cai for an 04 Cobra. It is for a buddy, what kind of deal can you make me? Thanks in advance!

 

I think I'm like alot of people on this board... waiting for the "cream" to come to the top. I will be making my first purchase of a CAI when it does.

My purchase will be determined by: "bang for the buck" & Visual "wow" factor.

I have looked at every thread on the subject and I'm still waiting.

Maybe it's time to do a head to head unbiased comparison...

 

hey, the numbers here dont add up? just 23hp from sct,cai? should be higher. 23hp should be alone from sctwith a good tuning. i got 32hpand 41tq more from sct,pullies and removal of trap.check it out again.

 

steeda pullies.i've be following this post along with some others regarding cold air intake kits. nobody has proved to me they have given much more hp. either my guy knows what he's doing which i know he does or there not too many good tuners. if i got 32hp/41 tq more from just sct,pullies and removal of trap w/93 octane do u think i'll get 10-15 hp from cai?i don't think so!!!!!that will give me 42-47 hp from my mods which will be one heck of a car. my guy said they tried a cai and only gave a few hp more. ill wait and see what bryan gets with his jlt cai on the 12th. if he gets more hp then the mmr then im sold somewhat.

 

No need. turbochad has already completed one on every single CAI out there I'm just waiting for the results.

The Boss Hog

 

Thunderstorm144's results that he has mentioned are "peak before versus peak after" numbers, not to be confused with "peak improvement". In the upper RPM's, he saw a 30 HP gain at the rear wheels. The ONLY changes made to his computer were to accomodate the air meter assembly, as he is running low octane, and did not want to have to pay for premium fuel. His timing was not raised like other tunes designed for 93 octane.

I have told this to many people, but I guess that I have not stated it on any message boards. A tune alone (doesn't matter WHOSE -Diablosport, Hypertech, SCT, Superchips, etc.) will NOT add the kind of numbers that people on the 'net are trying to lead people to believe. I have personally tested tunes from the major manufacturers, and they are good for anywhere between 7-12 HP, depending on the RPM. The breakdown is as follows: Leaning the air/fuel from the stock ratio, which ranges between 12.2:1 to as rich as 11.7:1 (depending on the vehicle) up to the ideal range of 12.9 ish to 13.0:1 is a 2-3 HP gain at BEST. The stock level of timing (at WOT) measured during a pull on a dynojet holds rock steady at 25 degrees. Many of you guys who are familiar with the optimum settings on timing adjusters on the 4.6L 2V engines. After a tune, depending on how agressive the tuner is, it will typically increase the timing anywhere from 4-6 degrees more. This nets another increase of about 7 more HP. Those are the 2 primary adjustments made in a tune on these vehicles. There is no secret "master switch" that can be turned off in the tune that unleashes the fury of additional cyllinders, or turn on spark plugs that were not previously firing. I have been told that Ford did a great job on the electronic cam timing, and that playing with that does not really seem to help. Adjusting the drive-by-wire settings will make the throttle response "crisper", but will not increase performance.
Do not take my word for this, talk with someone like Lidio from Alternative Auto in Mt. Clemens, MI. He is an SCT tuner, and we have spoken at length about realistic tuning results, and some of the unrealistic expectations that people on the internet have based upon claims made on the message boards. In fact, one of his customers posted his results earlier in this thread. He is an unbiased individual who is all about uncovering the TRUTH about what works, and what does not. He has tested our assembly,and was pleased with the results, so he is offering it to his customers with his SCT tunes.

Tucker- I am pleasantly surprised to hear that you are running our air meter. I believe that the reason why I (and others like VegasJay) felt that you were bashing was due to 2 reasons. First, was your tag in your signature. If it were aimed at people who make chrome exhaust pipe tube intake assemblies, then I am all with you. But people took it as a direct slam to us. Second, when you made the rounds on the message boards to comment on the dyno comparison (which claimed to show a 20 ft/lb!? improvement over our product), you went on record by proclaiming "now that's a KILL!". I don't know if you did it on this forum, but I saw where it was done on other forums, and people on the boards were quick to echo your sentiment. The problem is, and I know that everyone who is reading this knows it, is that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a stock 281 cubic inch engine to deliver over 340 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels. This is why people find your claims to be suspicious. Since you claim to NOT have been involved in the testing personally, then how can you be sure that the results are as they seem? An increase in airflow available to an engine (especially over ANOTHER aftermarket upgrade) improves performance primarily in the UPPER RPM's. A stock 2005 GT applies 279 to 281 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels on a Dynojet. The dyno chart that you were using to illustrate how your product is better (and produced a "kill" in your words) showed a peak torque level of 342 ft/lbs. A whopping 62 ft/lbs over the stock level!? How can you possibly have full faith in such a result, if you were not personally involved in the testing? The MOST torque that I have heard of any NATURALLY ASPIRATED 2005 apply to the rear wheel was 325 ft/lbs, and that was NOT on a dynojet.
The results of the "comparison" that you have been backing was performed on a foreign dyno, and those results can NOT be directly compared to the Dynojet results that everyone on here is familiar with. Perhaps this is why the torque numbers seem "larger than life"???

When the person who started this thread posts his results after testing your supplied tune, and he does not see 340+ ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels, or even 325, will you be willing to concede that the previously posted results were likely to not be accurate or realistic? I do feel that your product is better than what our other competitors have to offer, based upon what I have seen so far, but I am unwilling to accept the results that you used to claim that your product "kills" ours.

There are plenty of 2005 owners who want to have choices when they upgrade their vehicles. I understand that your primary means of product awareness is on the internet and through message boards. During this early critical time (shortly after our product release), which is before our advertisements hit the mainstream media, and before articles are published, the internet is just as important to us for getting the word out as well. When someone provides results that are inconsistent with logic, and use it as evidence to prove that their product is better than ours, then I am sure that you can understand why I (and others) took the claim with great skepticism. In the end I want our customers to be happy with their purchase, whether they buy a system from us or you.

And, for the record, none of the 2005 intake upgrades should be labeled as a "cold air" kit. The whole nature of the "cold air" kit is based upon the assumption that locating the air filter outside of the engine compartment will somehow give you magical gains. This is simply not the case, and I would prefer that people do not try to group what we sell with such filter assemblies like those sold for the older 4.6's and 5.0's. I was one of the first people to purchase a Dynojet automotive dyno when they first became available in 1995. I would be willing to bet that I have more years of rear wheel dyno experience than most anyone else on the message boards. In fact, I was personally trained and given a full understanding of the function of the dynojet by (Mark), the original owner of Dynojet, and inventor of the dyno. This experience has taught me many things. Sticking an air filter in the fender in an attempt to generate more horsepower was not one of them. It is a psycological advantage, and many, many dyno tests that I have performed have never been able to conclusively prove that an air filter re-located into the fender makes any more power than an adequately sized filter in the engine compartment that draws air from the fenderwell. Our kits locate the air filter directly in front of the air meter, which eliminates any chance of a false air meter reading. We supply a cover that goes over the filter, so that the air is still coming from the fenderwell into the filter. Even unshrouded, with the hood closed to force underhood air into the filter, I have never seen conclusive evidence that there is any benefit. We sell complete air induction systems, and prefer not to be compared to chrome pipe filter kits that promise gains that they simply can not deliver. I am not talking about JLT here, but I am sure you can figure out who I am talking about. They used to claim "up to 19 more HP" in their ads for a simple filter kit for naturally aspirated Mustangs. I guess that if you claim "Up To...", then a 3.5 HP gain does not equal false advertising. Anyhow, I know "cold air" has become like "xerox", but the terminology is misleading. Please do not take this as a whining complaint, but I just personally do not like the misleading nature of the term "cold air"...