Fantastic Dyno Weekend in St. Louis, MO
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: January 4, 2006
Posts: 3,904
Likes: 32
How is it risky? If the car is running dangerously lean or rich won't it throw up a CEL?
So I ask again (not sarcastically, I want to learn something):
Can someone define "lean within the parameters that are acceptable" ?
What is the acceptable range versus the optimal range?
Also can someone explain to me what the end (real world) result would be of running lean or rich for that matter within acceptable parameters? Can it cause problems down the road? Does it have an adverse effect on performance?
. National Dragster, Jun 4, 2004 by Smith, Evan J
When all-out performance counts, racers will look far and wide for every possible advantage. Whether they are trying to achieve ultimate consistency and/or repeatability or just seeking low elapsed time, chances are they have a data-logging computer and are examining closely the functions that are vital to performance. A most critical function is monitoring the engine's air/fuel ratio. Tuning a carburetor or electronic-fuel-injection system to consistently produce the optimum air/fuel ratio will always lead to maximum horsepower. But what's the best air/fuel ratio, and how does one monitor it?
One way is with Dynojet's new Wide Band Commander, a complete kit that installs in a few hours and can log the engine's air/fuel ratio, engine rpm, and throttle position.
According to Dan Hourigan of Dynojet, "Racers looking for maximum performance should be concerned with knowing the air/fuel ratio of their engines. It is one of the most insightful tuning tools because it can allow [racers] to end up with a powerful yet safe engine tune-up."
In theory, there's a "perfect" air-to-fuel ratio that will result in complete combustion of the fuel and maximum efficiency of the engine. This ratio, called the stoichiometric ratio, is regarded in the automotive industry as 14.7:1 (air to fuel). Therefore, when an internal-combustion engine is running at 14.7:1, all of the fuel will be burned and optimum fuel efficiency will be achieved.
If the a/f ratio is altered so that there is less air (with the same amount of fuel), there will be residual fuel after combustion; this is termed a "rich" mixture. Rich mixtures lead to increased emissions and can cause a drop in power in racing conditions. In contrast, more air (for the amount of fuel) will cause the mixture to be lean. Lean mixtures cause excessive heat and can be the root of engine-damaging detonation.
At wide-open throttle, however, needed is a mixture richer than 14.7:1, sometimes as rich as 11.5:1 in nitrous or boosted applications. Finding the correct a/f ratio for the engine will produce the most efficient combustion and cylinder pressure, thus creating the most power.
To help engines run as efficiently as possible, manufacturers began using Oxygen Feedback Systems some years ago. These systems monitor the oxygen content in the exhaust with the use of oxygen sensors, which then relay the conditions of the air/fuel mixture to the engine-management computer. The sensor tells the computer whether the mixture is rich or lean and adjusts the fueling accordingly. A properly working system can trim the fueling of the engine to maintain the most efficient mixture for the given driving conditions. At light cruise, the mixture will be lean to help achieve good fuel economy whereas more fuel will be added when the throttle is depressed for accelerating. After warming up and during most conditions, the engine's computer will function in "closed loop," meaning the O2 sensor and the feedback system is working continuously. On the other hand, during engine starts and wide-open-throttle operation, the computer will operate in "open loop." In open loop, dedicated fuel and timing table are used to provide good drivability and to help the engine warm up quickly.
Racers, the smart creatures they are, figured out that engines make maximum horsepower at a given air/fuel ratio; however, they needed a way to monitor the air/fuel ratio. Of the O2 monitoring systems on the market, many do not use a wide-band oxygen sensor like the one supplied with the Dynojet Wide Band Commander. "A typical production vehicle, along with many of the aftermarket systems, use sensors that have a very narrow resolution," said Hourigan. "They are inexpensive and can [determine whether] the engine is richer or leaner than 14.7:1, but they can't accurately monitor and data log the air/fuel ratio like our system can.
"The Wide Band Commander gives you everything you need to accurately monitor your air/fuel ratio. In most cases the target a/f ratio for naturally aspirated engines will be between 12.8:1 and 13.2:1 whereas supercharged, turbocharged, and nitrous-injected engines will like a richer mixture between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1. Each vehicle is different, but we [provide] the ability to data log and tune based on the actual amount of air and fuel that an engine is consuming. I've found that using this equipment in conjunction with chassis or engine dyno testing can bring some fantastic results, but using it at the track works well, too."
In fact, most tuners who use a chassis dyno rely on air/fuel data logging to accurately build a fuel curve for each vehicle. Road and track testing is still a big part of it, but dialing in the proper air/fuel ratio is what most look for when tuning for power and economy, and the chassis dyno is a great tool for that.
If yourA/F ratio is between 13.5 and 12.5 at WOT you aren't going to hurt anything. Optimal for each car is the max HP in that range.
Bullitt Member
Joined: July 27, 2006
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
How do you know I dont know anything about the maf set up hes got going? Facts lets stick with facts, you dont have a clue of what I know. That is a fact. Secondly anyone anywhere can make up what they want, if you were jr you could make 10 different names, saying different states, different names etc. So don't think people dont know that sort of stuff goes on. IP addresses signify where your located, not a forum name or what you typed in. But beyond that. Again I state a fact, MAF sensors are designed for the air flow, if his needs a harness, then it is not calibrated to the proper air flow period. that is a fact, otherwise you dont need it, like every other car in america or anywhere that has a maf on it. You dont see the shelby has a jumper on it for it to work do you. You dont see one on the corvette, do you! Why you ask, because there maf is designed for that air flow. If the gms intake maf was designed for that air flow it wouldnt have a harness I state once again. Instead they have a MAF sensor that has the numbers grinded off, so that people cant detect the maf they are using attached to a harness that many people have looked at and have fallen apart. That include resistors or whatever to change the signal to the maf. Anyway this is my last post in regards to JR, jr. As always stating again so people dont get confused, I like my GMS cai, just recommend people spend a little money to protect there big investment. I dont understand why this is an arguing point at all. So I will be the bigger person and just stop posting about it. good luck as always.
I don't even know where to start. That has got to be the most ridiculous post I have ever seen on this forum, and that is actually saying something here. Do you have any idea how absured you sound? If you must know the truth, I've killed JR, and am slowly taking over his identity. The people at his, er I mean my main facility think I've been away on business, but I've already begun the process. I know his mannerisms, his speech, soon the world will not know that I am not the real JR, and by then it will be too late! I will have deceived you all, mankind is doomed!
Back in the real world...Since you know how it operates, you either designed, or helped design, or know somebody really well who did either of the two, so it shouldn't be a problem for you to get a copy of their schematics would it. Just post me a pic of it. In fact, just post me a link to where it's at. You won't have to explain it to me, I'm sure I'd be able to figure it out, just let me see it since you know exactly how it works.
This is exactly what I said would happen three months ago. That even if I or others posted dynos, that people would still not believe it. Here I have gone, paid my own money to show everyone here that this CAI is doing what it says it does, and people still won't acknowledge the simple fact that it works. http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...&postcount=264 Believe what you want.
Edit: OK, that last part sounded a little melodramatic, I mainly got my car dynod for my own piece of mind to check that my a/f was ok, and it was. Trying to provide some info was secondary.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 13, 2004
Posts: 985
Likes: 6
In theory, there's a "perfect" air-to-fuel ratio that will result in complete combustion of the fuel and maximum efficiency of the engine. This ratio, called the stoichiometric ratio, is regarded in the automotive industry as 14.7:1 (air to fuel).
At wide-open throttle, however, needed is a mixture richer than 14.7:1, sometimes as rich as 11.5:1 in nitrous or boosted applications. In most cases the target a/f ratio for naturally aspirated engines will be between 12.8:1 and 13.2:1
If yourA/F ratio is between 13.5 and 12.5 at WOT you aren't going to hurt anything. Optimal for each car is the max HP in that range.
At wide-open throttle, however, needed is a mixture richer than 14.7:1, sometimes as rich as 11.5:1 in nitrous or boosted applications. In most cases the target a/f ratio for naturally aspirated engines will be between 12.8:1 and 13.2:1
If yourA/F ratio is between 13.5 and 12.5 at WOT you aren't going to hurt anything. Optimal for each car is the max HP in that range.
The article answered this question:
I asked..."Also can someone explain to me what the end (real world) result would be of running lean or rich for that matter within acceptable parameters? Can it cause problems down the road? Does it have an adverse effect on performance?" ...and the answer is apparently that if you run too lean it can cause excess heat and detonation and too rich can cause power loss and excess emissions.
Now I have more questions however:
What is the a/f operating range Ford allows before it throws up a CEL?
How much "power loss" would be experienced running at the edges of Ford's allowable operating range?
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 13, 2004
Posts: 985
Likes: 6
For testing some of the intakes, well like most other " No tune needed" air intakes they do. The a/f ratio's were either lean as could be, 14-15:1, or they would spike down to 12.5 for a few hundred rpm and then at about a 45 degree angle end up at 14:1 by 6000, all of these were at WOT.
Did any of the cars w/GMS CAIs get a base run dyno'd with no tune and the GMS MAF?
Bullitt Member
Joined: July 27, 2006
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Here's some info:
. National Dragster, Jun 4, 2004 by Smith, Evan J
When all-out performance counts, racers will look far and wide for every possible advantage. Whether they are trying to achieve ultimate consistency and/or repeatability or just seeking low elapsed time, chances are they have a data-logging computer and are examining closely the functions that are vital to performance. A most critical function is monitoring the engine's air/fuel ratio. Tuning a carburetor or electronic-fuel-injection system to consistently produce the optimum air/fuel ratio will always lead to maximum horsepower. But what's the best air/fuel ratio, and how does one monitor it?
One way is with Dynojet's new Wide Band Commander, a complete kit that installs in a few hours and can log the engine's air/fuel ratio, engine rpm, and throttle position.
According to Dan Hourigan of Dynojet, "Racers looking for maximum performance should be concerned with knowing the air/fuel ratio of their engines. It is one of the most insightful tuning tools because it can allow [racers] to end up with a powerful yet safe engine tune-up."
In theory, there's a "perfect" air-to-fuel ratio that will result in complete combustion of the fuel and maximum efficiency of the engine. This ratio, called the stoichiometric ratio, is regarded in the automotive industry as 14.7:1 (air to fuel). Therefore, when an internal-combustion engine is running at 14.7:1, all of the fuel will be burned and optimum fuel efficiency will be achieved.
If the a/f ratio is altered so that there is less air (with the same amount of fuel), there will be residual fuel after combustion; this is termed a "rich" mixture. Rich mixtures lead to increased emissions and can cause a drop in power in racing conditions. In contrast, more air (for the amount of fuel) will cause the mixture to be lean. Lean mixtures cause excessive heat and can be the root of engine-damaging detonation.
At wide-open throttle, however, needed is a mixture richer than 14.7:1, sometimes as rich as 11.5:1 in nitrous or boosted applications. Finding the correct a/f ratio for the engine will produce the most efficient combustion and cylinder pressure, thus creating the most power.
To help engines run as efficiently as possible, manufacturers began using Oxygen Feedback Systems some years ago. These systems monitor the oxygen content in the exhaust with the use of oxygen sensors, which then relay the conditions of the air/fuel mixture to the engine-management computer. The sensor tells the computer whether the mixture is rich or lean and adjusts the fueling accordingly. A properly working system can trim the fueling of the engine to maintain the most efficient mixture for the given driving conditions. At light cruise, the mixture will be lean to help achieve good fuel economy whereas more fuel will be added when the throttle is depressed for accelerating. After warming up and during most conditions, the engine's computer will function in "closed loop," meaning the O2 sensor and the feedback system is working continuously. On the other hand, during engine starts and wide-open-throttle operation, the computer will operate in "open loop." In open loop, dedicated fuel and timing table are used to provide good drivability and to help the engine warm up quickly.
Racers, the smart creatures they are, figured out that engines make maximum horsepower at a given air/fuel ratio; however, they needed a way to monitor the air/fuel ratio. Of the O2 monitoring systems on the market, many do not use a wide-band oxygen sensor like the one supplied with the Dynojet Wide Band Commander. "A typical production vehicle, along with many of the aftermarket systems, use sensors that have a very narrow resolution," said Hourigan. "They are inexpensive and can [determine whether] the engine is richer or leaner than 14.7:1, but they can't accurately monitor and data log the air/fuel ratio like our system can.
"The Wide Band Commander gives you everything you need to accurately monitor your air/fuel ratio. In most cases the target a/f ratio for naturally aspirated engines will be between 12.8:1 and 13.2:1 whereas supercharged, turbocharged, and nitrous-injected engines will like a richer mixture between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1. Each vehicle is different, but we [provide] the ability to data log and tune based on the actual amount of air and fuel that an engine is consuming. I've found that using this equipment in conjunction with chassis or engine dyno testing can bring some fantastic results, but using it at the track works well, too."
In fact, most tuners who use a chassis dyno rely on air/fuel data logging to accurately build a fuel curve for each vehicle. Road and track testing is still a big part of it, but dialing in the proper air/fuel ratio is what most look for when tuning for power and economy, and the chassis dyno is a great tool for that.
If yourA/F ratio is between 13.5 and 12.5 at WOT you aren't going to hurt anything. Optimal for each car is the max HP in that range.
. National Dragster, Jun 4, 2004 by Smith, Evan J
When all-out performance counts, racers will look far and wide for every possible advantage. Whether they are trying to achieve ultimate consistency and/or repeatability or just seeking low elapsed time, chances are they have a data-logging computer and are examining closely the functions that are vital to performance. A most critical function is monitoring the engine's air/fuel ratio. Tuning a carburetor or electronic-fuel-injection system to consistently produce the optimum air/fuel ratio will always lead to maximum horsepower. But what's the best air/fuel ratio, and how does one monitor it?
One way is with Dynojet's new Wide Band Commander, a complete kit that installs in a few hours and can log the engine's air/fuel ratio, engine rpm, and throttle position.
According to Dan Hourigan of Dynojet, "Racers looking for maximum performance should be concerned with knowing the air/fuel ratio of their engines. It is one of the most insightful tuning tools because it can allow [racers] to end up with a powerful yet safe engine tune-up."
In theory, there's a "perfect" air-to-fuel ratio that will result in complete combustion of the fuel and maximum efficiency of the engine. This ratio, called the stoichiometric ratio, is regarded in the automotive industry as 14.7:1 (air to fuel). Therefore, when an internal-combustion engine is running at 14.7:1, all of the fuel will be burned and optimum fuel efficiency will be achieved.
If the a/f ratio is altered so that there is less air (with the same amount of fuel), there will be residual fuel after combustion; this is termed a "rich" mixture. Rich mixtures lead to increased emissions and can cause a drop in power in racing conditions. In contrast, more air (for the amount of fuel) will cause the mixture to be lean. Lean mixtures cause excessive heat and can be the root of engine-damaging detonation.
At wide-open throttle, however, needed is a mixture richer than 14.7:1, sometimes as rich as 11.5:1 in nitrous or boosted applications. Finding the correct a/f ratio for the engine will produce the most efficient combustion and cylinder pressure, thus creating the most power.
To help engines run as efficiently as possible, manufacturers began using Oxygen Feedback Systems some years ago. These systems monitor the oxygen content in the exhaust with the use of oxygen sensors, which then relay the conditions of the air/fuel mixture to the engine-management computer. The sensor tells the computer whether the mixture is rich or lean and adjusts the fueling accordingly. A properly working system can trim the fueling of the engine to maintain the most efficient mixture for the given driving conditions. At light cruise, the mixture will be lean to help achieve good fuel economy whereas more fuel will be added when the throttle is depressed for accelerating. After warming up and during most conditions, the engine's computer will function in "closed loop," meaning the O2 sensor and the feedback system is working continuously. On the other hand, during engine starts and wide-open-throttle operation, the computer will operate in "open loop." In open loop, dedicated fuel and timing table are used to provide good drivability and to help the engine warm up quickly.
Racers, the smart creatures they are, figured out that engines make maximum horsepower at a given air/fuel ratio; however, they needed a way to monitor the air/fuel ratio. Of the O2 monitoring systems on the market, many do not use a wide-band oxygen sensor like the one supplied with the Dynojet Wide Band Commander. "A typical production vehicle, along with many of the aftermarket systems, use sensors that have a very narrow resolution," said Hourigan. "They are inexpensive and can [determine whether] the engine is richer or leaner than 14.7:1, but they can't accurately monitor and data log the air/fuel ratio like our system can.
"The Wide Band Commander gives you everything you need to accurately monitor your air/fuel ratio. In most cases the target a/f ratio for naturally aspirated engines will be between 12.8:1 and 13.2:1 whereas supercharged, turbocharged, and nitrous-injected engines will like a richer mixture between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1. Each vehicle is different, but we [provide] the ability to data log and tune based on the actual amount of air and fuel that an engine is consuming. I've found that using this equipment in conjunction with chassis or engine dyno testing can bring some fantastic results, but using it at the track works well, too."
In fact, most tuners who use a chassis dyno rely on air/fuel data logging to accurately build a fuel curve for each vehicle. Road and track testing is still a big part of it, but dialing in the proper air/fuel ratio is what most look for when tuning for power and economy, and the chassis dyno is a great tool for that.
If yourA/F ratio is between 13.5 and 12.5 at WOT you aren't going to hurt anything. Optimal for each car is the max HP in that range.
Thank you very much, that was some good info.
GT Member
Joined: August 18, 2005
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
mine was 1 of 3 GMS w/maf cars at the dyno. All were autos. the problem you have getting an accurate dyno reading with an auto is the torque convertor unlocking and locking at WOT giving you strange numbers. Before Doug's tune I believe my HP was around 250. Doug's tune keeps the convertor from unlocking at WOT so the numbers are also more accurate. After the "tune" it made 264hp and 284tq. the a/f before the tune was all over and around 14 at WOT. after tune steady around 12.5.The driveability(throttle lag) and the way the car shifted after the tune was worth the price alone to me.
Cobra R Member
Joined: November 12, 2004
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Heres a couple facts!
Like I said I will only post facts on this subject from now on. No need to argue over such a trivial thing. Here are the first 4, in any way I could show it, torque, air/fuel, hp, torque, couldnt fit the last one , number 5 will be in next post. Happy hunting.
Well all of these dynos shown are showing the different numbers air/fuel, torque, hp, combined and seperate for easier viewing. These were all with the gms cai and there maf and jumper harness with no tune, stock computer configuration.
Well all of these dynos shown are showing the different numbers air/fuel, torque, hp, combined and seperate for easier viewing. These were all with the gms cai and there maf and jumper harness with no tune, stock computer configuration.
Cobra R Member
Joined: November 12, 2004
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
heres the last one of the gms
Well all of these dynos shown are showing the different numbers air/fuel, torque, hp, combined and seperate for easier viewing. These were all with the gms cai and there maf and jumper harness with no tune, stock computer configuration.
Bullitt Member
Joined: December 28, 2004
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Bullitt Member
Joined: July 27, 2006
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Like I said I will only post facts on this subject from now on. No need to argue over such a trivial thing. Here are the first 4, in any way I could show it, torque, air/fuel, hp, torque, couldnt fit the last one , number 5 will be in next post. Happy hunting.
Well all of these dynos shown are showing the different numbers air/fuel, torque, hp, combined and seperate for easier viewing. These were all with the gms cai and there maf and jumper harness with no tune, stock computer configuration.
Well all of these dynos shown are showing the different numbers air/fuel, torque, hp, combined and seperate for easier viewing. These were all with the gms cai and there maf and jumper harness with no tune, stock computer configuration.
V6 Member
Joined: September 22, 2006
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 10,645
Likes: 2,511
From: Carnegie, PA
Goose ? you can also try going to www.photobucket.com their a free picture hosting website..All you do is set up your free account by logging in with a user name and password and just follow the instructions..
Bullitt Member
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Hey Andy,
Hit the "Post Reply" and when the reply screen comes up scroll down to "Manage Attachments". Another screen will pop up allowing you to download files from your PC to the host computer. The files you download will have to meet the rules as shown on the pop up. I beleive only files with approved extensions will be allowed.
If you are using a scanner you can save the scanned files as an approved extension.......jpg etc, etc. Also you will want to pay attention to the allowable file size.
Hope this helps man.
Hit the "Post Reply" and when the reply screen comes up scroll down to "Manage Attachments". Another screen will pop up allowing you to download files from your PC to the host computer. The files you download will have to meet the rules as shown on the pop up. I beleive only files with approved extensions will be allowed.
If you are using a scanner you can save the scanned files as an approved extension.......jpg etc, etc. Also you will want to pay attention to the allowable file size.
Hope this helps man.
V6 Member
Joined: September 22, 2006
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Let's see if this works. This is a GMS intake with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.
GMS Dyno File with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.jpg (56.5 KB)
GMS Dyno File with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.jpg (56.5 KB)
V6 Member
Joined: September 22, 2006
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Hey Andy,
Hit the "Post Reply" and when the reply screen comes up scroll down to "Manage Attachments". Another screen will pop up allowing you to download files from your PC to the host computer. The files you download will have to meet the rules as shown on the pop up. I beleive only files with approved extensions will be allowed.
If you are using a scanner you can save the scanned files as an approved extension.......jpg etc, etc. Also you will want to pay attention to the allowable file size.
Hope this helps man.
Hit the "Post Reply" and when the reply screen comes up scroll down to "Manage Attachments". Another screen will pop up allowing you to download files from your PC to the host computer. The files you download will have to meet the rules as shown on the pop up. I beleive only files with approved extensions will be allowed.
If you are using a scanner you can save the scanned files as an approved extension.......jpg etc, etc. Also you will want to pay attention to the allowable file size.
Hope this helps man.
Bullitt Member
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Let's see if this works. This is a GMS intake with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.
GMS Dyno File with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.jpg (56.5 KB)
GMS Dyno File with stock tune, jumper and GMS MAF.jpg (56.5 KB)
You can increase the the size of the picture and then download it again.
