Bigger, Stronger, Faster
2/24/06, 06:35 PM
#41
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Yeah, I wasnt sure if the w/p would be different on whatever you go to.
And Im surprised at no video on the dyno, you got a video for just about everything!
And Im surprised at no video on the dyno, you got a video for just about everything!
2/24/06, 06:44 PM
#42
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Sorry to hear your tale of woe my friend! Good luck building it up! I just hope it doesn't total up to the 6 million dallar mark... !
You know the drill.... Detailed write up is required!
You know the drill.... Detailed write up is required!
2/24/06, 06:46 PM
#43
Thread Starter
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stoenr @ February 24, 2006, 5:38 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Yeah, I wasnt sure if the w/p would be different on whatever you go to.
And Im surprised at no video on the dyno, you got a video for just about everything!
[/b][/quote]
I was taking video of some of the earlier pulls, but then stopped. Probably a good thing... not sure I want to see it again (and again and again and again... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nonono.gif[/img] )
Yeah, I wasnt sure if the w/p would be different on whatever you go to.
And Im surprised at no video on the dyno, you got a video for just about everything!
[/b][/quote]
I was taking video of some of the earlier pulls, but then stopped. Probably a good thing... not sure I want to see it again (and again and again and again... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nonono.gif[/img] )
2/24/06, 07:12 PM
#44
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(don_w @ February 24, 2006, 5:33 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Actually, I will be reusing the pump. Forged shortblocks still require a water pump. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
Bob/Scott: In your opinion, would the "weaker crank, more side loading on the rods, and piston scuffing" be as much of an issue with the 281/302 stroker as compared to the 302/347 stroker. It seems like to me that the 302/347 combo would be much more susceptible just because of the much great CID change.
[/b][/quote]
Don, The 302 stroker from a 4.6 block will be as bad or worse than the 302 to 347. Look at the stock stroke of the 4.6, its already larger than the 5.0 302. Look at how far the piston hangs out the bore at BDC on the 4.6 stroker as opposed to the 347. I would call Al Pappito at Boss330 racing. He can explain it from a professional engine builders perspective which I don't claim to be. My experience? I stroked my old 5.0 to a 331. It ran great for 15K miles than started burning oil. It got so bad I tore it down at around 25K, rings were shot (I was told due to greater piston speed at high rpm) and my pretty J&E forged pistons were scuffed bad. At first I blamed the engine builder but then got an education. I think Al showed 169Stang
some scuffed pistons from a 4.6 stroker. I would get his input because he only posts from reputable sources [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] BTW the 5.4 fits fine in the GT500 so I don't think much mods needed to make that happen. Your heads will bolt right up.
I forgot to take into account your KB Blower on a 5.4. I think it would work but might require some mods. I see KB offers a kit for 5.4 trucks and SUV.
Actually, I will be reusing the pump. Forged shortblocks still require a water pump. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
Bob/Scott: In your opinion, would the "weaker crank, more side loading on the rods, and piston scuffing" be as much of an issue with the 281/302 stroker as compared to the 302/347 stroker. It seems like to me that the 302/347 combo would be much more susceptible just because of the much great CID change.
[/b][/quote]
Don, The 302 stroker from a 4.6 block will be as bad or worse than the 302 to 347. Look at the stock stroke of the 4.6, its already larger than the 5.0 302. Look at how far the piston hangs out the bore at BDC on the 4.6 stroker as opposed to the 347. I would call Al Pappito at Boss330 racing. He can explain it from a professional engine builders perspective which I don't claim to be. My experience? I stroked my old 5.0 to a 331. It ran great for 15K miles than started burning oil. It got so bad I tore it down at around 25K, rings were shot (I was told due to greater piston speed at high rpm) and my pretty J&E forged pistons were scuffed bad. At first I blamed the engine builder but then got an education. I think Al showed 169Stang
some scuffed pistons from a 4.6 stroker. I would get his input because he only posts from reputable sources [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] BTW the 5.4 fits fine in the GT500 so I don't think much mods needed to make that happen. Your heads will bolt right up.
I forgot to take into account your KB Blower on a 5.4. I think it would work but might require some mods. I see KB offers a kit for 5.4 trucks and SUV.
2/24/06, 07:13 PM
#45
Thread Starter
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackonBlack @ February 24, 2006, 6:12 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Don, The 302 stroker from a 4.6 block will be as bad or worse than the 302 to 347. Look at the stock stroke of the 4.6, its already larger than the 5.0 302. Look at how far the piston hangs out the bore at BDC on the 4.6 stroker as opposed to the 347. I would call Al Pappito at Boss330 racing. He can explain it from a professional engine builders perspective which I don't claim to be. My experience? I stroked my old 5.0 to a 331. It ran great for 15K miles than started burning oil. It got so bad I tore it down at around 25K, rings were shot (I was told due to greater piston speed at high rpm) and my pretty J&E forged pistons were scuffed bad. At first I blamed the engine builder but then got an education. I think Al showed 169Stang
some scuffed pistons from a 4.6 stroker. I would get his input because he only posts from reputable sources [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] BTW the 5.4 fits fine in the GT500 so I don't think much mods needed to make that happen. Your heads will bolt right up.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks Bob... good info again!
And BTW, please don't compare my car to one of those "slow" GT500's. LOL j/k [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]
Don, The 302 stroker from a 4.6 block will be as bad or worse than the 302 to 347. Look at the stock stroke of the 4.6, its already larger than the 5.0 302. Look at how far the piston hangs out the bore at BDC on the 4.6 stroker as opposed to the 347. I would call Al Pappito at Boss330 racing. He can explain it from a professional engine builders perspective which I don't claim to be. My experience? I stroked my old 5.0 to a 331. It ran great for 15K miles than started burning oil. It got so bad I tore it down at around 25K, rings were shot (I was told due to greater piston speed at high rpm) and my pretty J&E forged pistons were scuffed bad. At first I blamed the engine builder but then got an education. I think Al showed 169Stang
some scuffed pistons from a 4.6 stroker. I would get his input because he only posts from reputable sources [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] BTW the 5.4 fits fine in the GT500 so I don't think much mods needed to make that happen. Your heads will bolt right up.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks Bob... good info again!
And BTW, please don't compare my car to one of those "slow" GT500's. LOL j/k [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]
2/24/06, 07:23 PM
#46
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(don_w @ February 24, 2006, 6:16 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks Bob... good info again!
And BTW, please don't compare my car to one of those "slow" GT500's. LOL j/k [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Slow GT500 LOL, Yeah they are pigs haha! Check with KB on your blower. If you go to 5.4 I think you will need a different intake due to the taller deck height of the block. They sell 5.4 kits so it should be able to work. I'm going turbo or possibly whipple, with 5.4 aluminum block [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
Thanks Bob... good info again!
And BTW, please don't compare my car to one of those "slow" GT500's. LOL j/k [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Slow GT500 LOL, Yeah they are pigs haha! Check with KB on your blower. If you go to 5.4 I think you will need a different intake due to the taller deck height of the block. They sell 5.4 kits so it should be able to work. I'm going turbo or possibly whipple, with 5.4 aluminum block [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/04.gif[/img]
2/24/06, 07:28 PM
#47
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Curious if there is any way to find out what went wrong? Tuning or weak internals or maybe just bad luck. What psi were you running? I don't know if those are stupid questions or not, just wondering why some have had higher wheel hp and no issues while others have blown. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
Sorry to hear it, good luck with getting it back on the road.
Sorry to hear it, good luck with getting it back on the road.
2/24/06, 07:36 PM
#48
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nynvolt @ February 24, 2006, 6:31 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Curious if there is any way to find out what went wrong? Tuning or weak internals or maybe just bad luck. What psi were you running? I don't know if those are stupid questions or not, just wondering why some have had higher wheel hp and no issues while others have blown. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
Sorry to hear it, good luck with getting it back on the road.
[/b][/quote]
I will be interested to hear the diagnosis as well. If power output was reduced for a while prior to failure it could be rod journal out of round or piston damage. Either way not a good ending. Ugly motor internals and pretty girls cost you money! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Curious if there is any way to find out what went wrong? Tuning or weak internals or maybe just bad luck. What psi were you running? I don't know if those are stupid questions or not, just wondering why some have had higher wheel hp and no issues while others have blown. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
Sorry to hear it, good luck with getting it back on the road.
[/b][/quote]
I will be interested to hear the diagnosis as well. If power output was reduced for a while prior to failure it could be rod journal out of round or piston damage. Either way not a good ending. Ugly motor internals and pretty girls cost you money! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
2/24/06, 07:37 PM
#49
Thread Starter
Well, we certainly hope that we can figure out the exact cause... we'll get more info when the motor is pulled tomorrow and the heads come off.
2/24/06, 07:49 PM
#50
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Route 66 @ February 24, 2006, 5:58 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
What does it take to make our motor the same as the Terminator's motor? I'm serious help me out. They have an Iron block, correct? Our are aluminum. Ok, so an iron block won't go kablooie. Why will ours. Is it the block, or the internals? Can the internals be changed to over to forged and other material, keep the aluminum block and be ok? The z06 has an aluminum block with forged internals. They seem to be fine. Help me out here so I can understand this better.
Matt
[/b][/quote]
The problem is with the way the piston head is designed. Ford did this to squeeze a bit more gas mileage.
The folks at Steeda did an article on the limitations of the 4.6l, and theres a link somewhere here in the forms to the article. Very informative. If I recall correctly they said that anything over 430hp or so you run the risk of blowwwwing up becuase the pistons rings are so close to the top of the cylinder.
found the link:
http://mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles...p_0512_steedas/
A piece of the artice..
"The weak links are the piston ring lands and powdered rods. For emissions, the '05 has new pistons with ring lands very close to the top of the piston. "One of the ways to control emissions is to reduce the unscavenged area around the piston," Orlando explains. "If you move the ring land up as high as possible, you have less unburnt fuel. So Ford moved the ring land up as high as they could while maintaining minimum strength. But the whole purpose of it is alien to performance because they break easily."
What does it take to make our motor the same as the Terminator's motor? I'm serious help me out. They have an Iron block, correct? Our are aluminum. Ok, so an iron block won't go kablooie. Why will ours. Is it the block, or the internals? Can the internals be changed to over to forged and other material, keep the aluminum block and be ok? The z06 has an aluminum block with forged internals. They seem to be fine. Help me out here so I can understand this better.
Matt
[/b][/quote]
The problem is with the way the piston head is designed. Ford did this to squeeze a bit more gas mileage.
The folks at Steeda did an article on the limitations of the 4.6l, and theres a link somewhere here in the forms to the article. Very informative. If I recall correctly they said that anything over 430hp or so you run the risk of blowwwwing up becuase the pistons rings are so close to the top of the cylinder.
found the link:
http://mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles...p_0512_steedas/
A piece of the artice..
"The weak links are the piston ring lands and powdered rods. For emissions, the '05 has new pistons with ring lands very close to the top of the piston. "One of the ways to control emissions is to reduce the unscavenged area around the piston," Orlando explains. "If you move the ring land up as high as possible, you have less unburnt fuel. So Ford moved the ring land up as high as they could while maintaining minimum strength. But the whole purpose of it is alien to performance because they break easily."
2/24/06, 08:15 PM
#51
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Man Don....I'm so sorry to hear this....You are taking it very well and my hat's off to you for your attitude and approach... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] This hits home for me in a big way. Until now I was confident that the twin screw's were going to work out (properly-done). I would really appreciate any feed back to what went wrong. I will be detuning mine for sure now and ramping up the new motor plan...If there is ANY thing I can do to help out let me know. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] I will keep an eye out for a block.
2/24/06, 09:08 PM
#52
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(icemant180 @ February 24, 2006, 8:52 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The problem is with the way the piston head is designed. Ford did this to squeeze a bit more gas mileage.
The folks at Steeda did an article on the limitations of the 4.6l, and theres a link somewhere here in the forms to the article. Very informative. If I recall correctly they said that anything over 430hp or so you run the risk of blowwwwing up becuase the pistons rings are so close to the top of the cylinder.
found the link:
http://mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles...p_0512_steedas/
A piece of the artice..
"The weak links are the piston ring lands and powdered rods. For emissions, the '05 has new pistons with ring lands very close to the top of the piston. "One of the ways to control emissions is to reduce the unscavenged area around the piston," Orlando explains. "If you move the ring land up as high as possible, you have less unburnt fuel. So Ford moved the ring land up as high as they could while maintaining minimum strength. But the whole purpose of it is alien to performance because they break easily."
[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the feeback and the link.
The problem is with the way the piston head is designed. Ford did this to squeeze a bit more gas mileage.
The folks at Steeda did an article on the limitations of the 4.6l, and theres a link somewhere here in the forms to the article. Very informative. If I recall correctly they said that anything over 430hp or so you run the risk of blowwwwing up becuase the pistons rings are so close to the top of the cylinder.
found the link:
http://mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles...p_0512_steedas/
A piece of the artice..
"The weak links are the piston ring lands and powdered rods. For emissions, the '05 has new pistons with ring lands very close to the top of the piston. "One of the ways to control emissions is to reduce the unscavenged area around the piston," Orlando explains. "If you move the ring land up as high as possible, you have less unburnt fuel. So Ford moved the ring land up as high as they could while maintaining minimum strength. But the whole purpose of it is alien to performance because they break easily."
[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the feeback and the link.
2/24/06, 09:11 PM
#53
Thread Starter
Thanks Justin. My goal is to still drive it out to Vegas in early April and meet up with you. I guess I have a time schedule now. haha
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Route 66 @ February 24, 2006, 8:11 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks for the feeback and the link.
[/b][/quote]
+1 [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Route 66 @ February 24, 2006, 8:11 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks for the feeback and the link.
[/b][/quote]
+1 [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
2/24/06, 11:14 PM
#54
Thread Starter
Does anyone know for sure if there are any fitment issues with a Teksid block? That is, are all the bolt holes in the right place?
2/25/06, 12:42 AM
#55
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yo, dude, sorry to hear that. I'll bet that made you want to [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/puke.gif[/img]
anyway, glad you're feeling better and moving onward and upward.
are aftermarket pistons and rods available for the 4.6? What all should a guy put in to help prevent something like this?
anyway, glad you're feeling better and moving onward and upward.
are aftermarket pistons and rods available for the 4.6? What all should a guy put in to help prevent something like this?
2/25/06, 03:22 AM
#56
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I'm looking to switch to forged internals on a new 06. Is anyone considering doing the entire job themselves?
Remove the engine, cross hatch the cylinder walls, and install the crank, rods, and pistons on an engine stand. We have replaced these parts on older GM shortblocks with good results. Are there any tricks or issues that would make this a difficult DIY on the 4.6L?
Remove the engine, cross hatch the cylinder walls, and install the crank, rods, and pistons on an engine stand. We have replaced these parts on older GM shortblocks with good results. Are there any tricks or issues that would make this a difficult DIY on the 4.6L?
2/25/06, 07:41 AM
#57
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Don, that's not the way to lead us into the realm of more horsepower. Or maybe it is when you consider the end result will truely be bigger, stronger and faster. I look forward to the vicarious thrill of seeing the rebuild process.
2/25/06, 12:11 PM
#60
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Don,
Wholeheartedly seconded. I am sorry to see your motor go, it was truly amazing reading your posts and watching your progress. Let us know what the post-mortem shows and best of luck in your rebuild!
Eric
Wholeheartedly seconded. I am sorry to see your motor go, it was truly amazing reading your posts and watching your progress. Let us know what the post-mortem shows and best of luck in your rebuild!
Eric