As you can read, good old J is a die hard Ford man. In his head, everything is peachy in the world of Ford!

Back on topic, I own a Mustang and the Camaro is going to be a great competitor. It will make the Mustang step up and improve. Competition is great!

Like I said earlier, the Big 3 have some great products coming out in the short term future. GM's new Cruze looks to be a real winner. GM also has the Volt coming out too, which seems to leapfrog the competition in terms of hybrid tech. DCX has a few plug in vehicles that are interesting too. Ford's lineup looks strong as well. None of this matters though if the economy stays strong in the recession. I do not see the economy coming back to mid 2010, so all 3 have to weather the storm.

Agreed, I like how the 2010 taurus looks, and the new Fuison Hybrid looks to be a winner. Chevy's volt is truly incredible and proves toyota's accusations wrong. By anyway, I love that the camaro is back, competition is a good thing. If the 2011 Mustang gets a 5.0 DOHC V8 with 400 hp, I don't think Gm is worried because they are working on Their Gen V small Block V8 right now with Direct injection, VVT, AFM, etc... The peliminary hp are incredible.

This has been rumored for a while. Any firm dates for when this is going to happen? GM already has DI and AFM in its technology bin. The last I head Chevy was fighting vibration issues with AFM. I'd think that those technologies could be implemented quickly with the right resource.

The Gen V was intended to be launched in 2011 or 2012 in the Corvette, But the C7 has been deleayed, that does not mean Gen V has. They are still working on Gen V right now, they don't have a choice since fuel econmy standards are about to go up starting in 2011. Direct Injection and VVT enables Gm to increase the small block Fuel economy and Horspower, it is truly an win, win situation. But in any case when Gen V is released for the Corvette, expect it the following year in the camaro. All of GM's V8 are going DI as soon as possible. They have hinted at since Gen V V8 makes sooooo much more horspower than Gen IV that engine downsizing is an option and therefore increasing fuel economy even further. :nice:

Still trying to distort the arguments of those who disagree in an effort to 'win' I see. Does your credibility really mean this little to you? Here is a new notion for you.

No offense, but there is nothing in the above which cannot be found in the business section of a thousand newspapers. As such, this does not demonstrate a true understanding of where and how GM went astray.

As a car enthusiast I will not applaud models aimed at the enthusiast which do more to hinder the future potential that such cars can be built than to help it. Put simply, GM is and has long been sacrificing long term viability in desperate attempts to appeal to the enthusiast today. Why would I get excited about anything that strategy conjures?

True, somewhat. I have had some very interesting discussions with some old friends of mine in the business community all of whom agree that stock ratings and stock values are too often grossly misrepresented right now. Actually, a few of us were stating just the other day our opinion that the ease with which stock prices are manipulated internally and externally is another problem area which must be addressed for the economy to truly become healthy again.

I could go on, but I see no point in doing so here.

Really? We have seen no signs of progress on mainstream product? The Focus rehash, if visually unique to say the least, has worked out just fine. Edge has done fairly well too for that matter. F150 has seen a bit of an upswing as well, and the new Fusion looks very promising. Flex was a disappointment, and Lincoln is laying down a series of bunts which is hardly surprising given their indefinite 'on hold' status....but there will always be setbacks.

Truly important, the recent improvements in the Ford product portfolio overall are solid and obviously well thought out. Planned future improvements make sense and show that Ford has an understanding of what they have done wrong and how to right it, and how to do so in the current economic climate. Ford is blatantly focusing on the kind of product which can return them to profitability and has retooled their corporation into something which actually resembles a workable business model. When I see signs of the same from GM you'll be among the first to hear about it.

Neither my understanding of business nor my opinions regarding business entities are derived from a google search. ;)

Ridiculous, useing your logic Ford should not be making the Mustang, let alone the GT500. See how silly your reasoning is. You sound like some extreme left-wing elitis seeking to control everybody elses lives.

what the h--l are you taking about?!

If anyone wants a 2010 mustang that is faster than a 2010 camaro (if it ever arrives), all they have to do is get the optional supercharger that is warrantied. 'Nuff said. Until then wait for the 5.0 next year

You think so Huh!! Don't be too sure about that, even with the $5,000 Supercharger it still will not beat the Camaro SS that will have minimum 422hp (wink, wink). That supercharger will add about 100lbs on the nose maybe a little more when all is said and done. That puts the power to weight ratio very close to the camaro, But the Camaro has more rubber out back and don't forget its 52/48 weight distribution compared to a blown Mustang 57/43. In a straight line a blown mustang will be competitve, but on a track the mustang even with a blower will get demolished. GM has the camaro SS priced as close as possible to the mustang GT, but the Camaro's SS Ride and Handling is Faaaaaaaaaaar Superior to the GT500 while being about $14,000 Cheaper. Here is a sample of some stats, The camaro SS have .97gs of lateral grip, The 4 pot brembos will Have class leading Brakeing with No Fade, NONE!! The IRS will offer 0 wheel hop, NONE!! Like I said and some Camaro engineers have said, Mustang owners and especially gt500 owners jaws are going to be on the ground when the see how good the Camaro SS performs.

no wheel hop? no brake fade? does it come with a mr fusion and a hover conversion too?? :rofl2:

I am not distorting a thing. You are clearly a Ford fan and only look out at the Automotive world with blue tinted glasses. Try being open minded, it opens up a whole new world. I challenge you to show information that I posted that isn't credible. My point was that you are one of Ford's biggest cheerleaders on this forum.

No offense taken. I do not have the time to post a new business plan for Ford and GM. You and I both do not have enough financial data to make a conclusion. If you think so, you Jsalyor must be an alias for Alan Mullaly.

Fixing both is fairly basic from a business standpoint if you remove politics. Increase sales while decreasing overhead. Now, like I mentioned earlier the big problem faced by all 3 is the UAW.


I do disagree with this. GM has been working to improve their mainstream products. A great example is the new Malibu and Cruze. Ford has done the same thing with the Fusion and new Taurus.


Ford and GM's stocks are low for a reason. I agree that there is some market manipulation, but this isn't the case with Detroit. GM and Ford are risky investments and future earning are uncertain, hence the low analyst rating and stock price.

Ford's new Fusion Hybrid recently won a C&D comparo. I was actually really proud of Ford for this. My original point is that Ford and GM both have some really great products in the pipeline. I would hope that you would agree.

Time will tell on whether this strategy helps revive market share. The BIG factor here is the ecomony and the credit market. Ford, GM, Toytota, all are suffering from the economic and credit downturn. Like I said earlier, I do not see any good signs in the near term. It's going to be a rough 1-2 years out there.

Here is why I do not understand your loyalty to Ford. A strong GM is in Ford's best business interest. If GM was to fail in the next 6 months, Ford would have to tap into the line of credit that they asked for. Ford fans should be praying that GM survives; it's in your best interest.

GM's most critical launch is the Volt. If the Volt is as good as GM says, it truely could be a game changer. Ford's hybrids are also well positioned, but it's my understanding that the Volt is a generation ahead. We are enjoying low gas prices now because of low demand due to the recession. When the global economy starts picking up once again, so will oil prices. GM (and Ford) are well positioned with good product to take advantage of this.


Neither are mine. If you are saying you don't use the internet to gather information to make an educated opinion, well then you are behind the times. The internet is a great place to find real time information on the health of a business.

The no brake fade comment is probably partially true. GM has done a great job in the new ZR1 and CTSV curbing wheel hop. That knowledge has made its way down to the Camaro.

As for brake fade, I don't doubt that the brakes are nearly fade free. GM chose to use 4 piston 14" Brembo brakes up front.

One of my main beefs with the 2010 is that Ford didn't do enough in terms of suspension and brakes. The track pack brake pads still fade per track testing and the reviews have complained about a numb/overboosted feeling in regards to the front suspension. Hopefully, in 2011 Ford will make some minor tweaks to address these concerns.

And you know that ... how? GM hasn't even start producing Camaro yet.

No they haven't but GM's engineers are pretty open about the camaro what they are aloud to talk about. I can't remeber who it was but he did say that if you drag race a GT500, at the end of the 1/4mile you look to your left, you will see the GT500 door.

You may be buying what GM is shoveling but the rest of the folks on this board deserve more credit. You are conveniently avoiding little, problem areas like sales per month or, even better, sales per year. Through November GM moved a total of ~161,000 Malibus (just shy actually, but I'll round up) Those sales being for a car introduced as a 2008 model and which benefited from a huge avertising build up at launch.

For the sake of argument, lets compare those sales totals to say, the Fusion. The Fusion debuted in the 2005 model year and is, in effect, a lame duck model as we speak with new models rolling out right now. Sales through November? ~137,000 units (this time I rounded down a bit) By this juncture it is more than obvious that we will see less than a 30k unit disparity between these two models by the end of the year despite the Chevy being three model years newer and an initial GM ad campaign for the Malibu which made the Fusions advertising budget look like Mark Fields haircut stipend.

If you want to call that a success by all means feel free. Don't expect other to bite.

As for the Cobalt. I know exactly what the replacement is, the problem is when that replacement will get here. (once again, you seem to be missing all those little hints in my posts) If they bump the North American market on sale date for the Cruze back any further they may as well just start work on that models replacement and skip the Cruze altogether. Also worth mentioning, that slick looking Cruze is a Daewoo. I wonder how that will effect sales when the competition is going to be C2 Focus and Honda's evergreen Civic? More brilliance from the folks at GM.

Um, no. The GT500 makes a great deal of money for Ford and is a sales success, just like the Mustang lineup as a whole. These are both proven products of a company experieincing tight financial times, but one which has several remaining options for raising liquid assets if needed and one which is nowhere near bankruptcy. GM on the other hand is effectively a broke company which, at the moment, couldn't tell you how they are going to pay their February 2009 light bill. Given this, throwing money at the ZR1 might be ill advised.

Frankly, I don't have the time or inclination for the rest of your post. As for this portion, at this juncture I disagree. The assets required to fix GM as we know it are so vast at this point that I believe we will all be better off with a sooner rather than later Chapter 7 filing by the General. The government could then use the money it would effectively waste trying to bolster a by now well and truly dead GM to assist the other companies damaged by the bankruptcy through the initial shock.

Several GM brands would be bought up and survive without question, but by all appearances GM as we know it is already utterly broke and would require a cash infusion unrealistic in the extreme to fix. If the government spends too much time and money trying to prop up the general it will only make a bad situation that much worse.

Dude Stop being a Retard!! The Whole automotive industry is down is sales right now!! and the Camaro months before it's launch already has over 10,000 preorders!! The only car I know that has more hype behind the camaro is the Chevy Volt. The camaro is going to bring in alot of sales and thats the truth whether you choose to admit it or not, so get over yourself. And what I said has nothing to do with what GM says, it is a fact, THE NUMBER 1 CAR TRADED FOR A MALIBU PURCHASE IS THE TOYOTA CAMRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This fact makes your Honda accord statement total BS and you know it, so Please Open your eyes man, it is a huge acomplishment during hard times such times we are in right now. By the way the Cruze is not a Daewoo, it is on GM's Global compact car platform called Delta2 (That again show how ignorant you are), in america it will be the chevy cruze, in europe it will be insignia/vauxhaull etc... IT IS A AWESOME CAR, check it out on the internet before you bash stuff, You are truly a person who don't know what he is talking about.

Is 10,000 preorders supposed to be good? Heck, even fancy Taurus (a.k.a. Lincoln MKS) had over 8,000 preorders before it went on sale.

Delta II was designed in Europe. And we all know how well GM's European cars (mostly Opels) did in the USA.
And again, you say that Cruze is a great car even though it won't be on sale for at least 2 more years.

I think it comes with a flux capacitor too MBK. But GM is having problems with the production line lol

Jason, where are you getting (3860/430 from ? The Camaro SS, is (3860/422 HP.