Serious Reservations, doom for the 05?
8/4/04, 08:00 PM
#101
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Originally posted by Galaxie@August 4, 2004, 8:47 PM
I am not going to write off the solid axle unless it disappoints me in a test drive.
I am not going to write off the solid axle unless it disappoints me in a test drive.
8/4/04, 09:04 PM
#102
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Boomer, Galaxie...very good posts.
We're not trying to take sides here. It isn't live-axle vs. IRS. Most of us who seem to be arguing for Ford (which we aren't) would likely buy IRS if offered.
However, the fact is the mustang has what is promised to be a great 3-link setup. And to be fair, just as I've said that I believe the live-axle setup will handle well, I too want proof. The only difference is I've talked to Mr. Thai-Tang and I believe he was honest and upfront about the new suspension.
And at this stage, I get a bit annoyed when people imply he was feeding us BS. Basically steve and I felt he was upfront about how the suspension handled and his enthusiasm was evident. To call BS on us and him before you've seen any results......well, that's bad IMO.
It could be we had the wool pulled over our eyes, but how about giving us the benefit of the doubt till we see some testing.
We're not trying to take sides here. It isn't live-axle vs. IRS. Most of us who seem to be arguing for Ford (which we aren't) would likely buy IRS if offered.
However, the fact is the mustang has what is promised to be a great 3-link setup. And to be fair, just as I've said that I believe the live-axle setup will handle well, I too want proof. The only difference is I've talked to Mr. Thai-Tang and I believe he was honest and upfront about the new suspension.
And at this stage, I get a bit annoyed when people imply he was feeding us BS. Basically steve and I felt he was upfront about how the suspension handled and his enthusiasm was evident. To call BS on us and him before you've seen any results......well, that's bad IMO.
It could be we had the wool pulled over our eyes, but how about giving us the benefit of the doubt till we see some testing.
8/4/04, 09:17 PM
#103
Originally posted by Xellow+August 4, 2004, 2:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xellow @ August 4, 2004, 2:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-branch@August 1, 2004, 7:18 PM
Is is only me or is the production car a very dull representation of a 67 some almost 40 years later, diluted significantly from the gorgeous concept?? The ext design lacks inspiration or wow factor for a sports coupe, the interior rather nice, and all the cheap apointments to save a few bucks is very much in evidence ie fixed rear view mirrors, fixed radio antennae, the antiquated rear axle. lackluster/homely front and rear fascia, and more.............
Is is only me or is the production car a very dull representation of a 67 some almost 40 years later, diluted significantly from the gorgeous concept?? The ext design lacks inspiration or wow factor for a sports coupe, the interior rather nice, and all the cheap apointments to save a few bucks is very much in evidence ie fixed rear view mirrors, fixed radio antennae, the antiquated rear axle. lackluster/homely front and rear fascia, and more.............
no offense, but how the heck did you end up with your current vehicle then???
8/4/04, 09:19 PM
#104
Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 7:16 PM
Boomer
Do you know something we don't..? 
Boomer
I'm surprised no one has pulled out the 'but the 07 Camaro will have the IRS'
07 Camaro I guess you could go on GM's euro site and see what Opel has in a 2 door coupe with rwd to find out
8/4/04, 09:32 PM
#105
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Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 1:36 AM
In the end we will be paying probably more for an inferior product but it does not matter as long as it's got that little horsey in the grill... :worship:
In the end we will be paying probably more for an inferior product but it does not matter as long as it's got that little horsey in the grill... :worship:
Andre, mustang buyers aren't stupid. You seem to be implying that people will buy whatever Ford throws in there lap. I believe that people are loyal, but only so far. Many of the original comments started out very negative. The new car had to win over a lot of people.
I'm extremely happy about being able to buy a car at a point in time where a new generation of mustang is emerging. Its a bit better than a reskin and a 4.6L 2-valve carryover.
Anyways, if you really believe that many mustang buyers are just followers, then take a stand and don't buy one.
8/4/04, 09:33 PM
#106
I don't see how he lied at all. We all knew IRS was dropped to cut costs. Thats what he ment when he said they had to pick between the 300HP engine and the IRS. Comes down to cost. The 300 HP figure will sell more Mustangs than advertising IRS as an updated feature will.
Personally, for the GT, I'd rather see the power increase instead of adding IRS. I'd also bet they really nailed the ride quality in this car because every magazine review is going to be looking to see how it handles due to the lack of IRS. It's going to be an exploited, laugh at Ford, issue to reviewers if it doesn't handle well.
Personally, for the GT, I'd rather see the power increase instead of adding IRS. I'd also bet they really nailed the ride quality in this car because every magazine review is going to be looking to see how it handles due to the lack of IRS. It's going to be an exploited, laugh at Ford, issue to reviewers if it doesn't handle well.
8/4/04, 10:32 PM
#107
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Dan
Dan, don't get rid of your Probe just in case...
Andre, mustang buyers aren't stupid. You seem to be implying that people will buy whatever Ford throws in there lap. I believe that people are loyal, but only so far.
8/4/04, 11:22 PM
#108
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Originally posted by Dan+August 4, 2004, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dan @ August 4, 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Galaxie@August 4, 2004, 2:32 PM
Not much I can add to that except I can't wait until the first members on this site get a chance to drive the car and tell us exactly what they think about how the suspension rides and handles.
Not much I can add to that except I can't wait until the first members on this site get a chance to drive the car and tell us exactly what they think about how the suspension rides and handles.
On Friday, 8/20, you can expect my review of DRIVING the 05 Stang. If I'm allowed to take my video camera in, you can also expect a nice vid if Brad will allow me to upload it.
Considering that I am currently a motion picture direction major, you can expect a NICE video. I'll even burn to DVD and sell it for cost if anyone is interested.
I can't wait to actually DRIVE the car. I'm just hoping I get a manual, I hate driving autos. Also hoping they let me really take it to the limits so I can give you guys the lowdown on oversteer, body roll, shift points, etc.
I'll let everyone here know as soon as I know.
8/4/04, 11:33 PM
#109
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just a though, but i dont know if someone said this ealrier in the thread, maybe they'll save IRS for an SE.
personally, if the SE was just some stripes and IRS, i'd go for it, as long as it doesnt get overpriced
personally, if the SE was just some stripes and IRS, i'd go for it, as long as it doesnt get overpriced
8/4/04, 11:42 PM
#110
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Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 5:45 PM
Before this thread is closed let me say there is nothing quite like the mustang...and the chrysler 300 is no mustang, but the fact that chrysler can produce a RWD car with IRS that can handle 390FT of torque for less than $23k proves that it's nonsense to say that IRS would have been too costly for the Mustang. The 300C uses the same IRS as the base 300 model except for the addition of an antirollbar and different tuning.
Before this thread is closed let me say there is nothing quite like the mustang...and the chrysler 300 is no mustang, but the fact that chrysler can produce a RWD car with IRS that can handle 390FT of torque for less than $23k proves that it's nonsense to say that IRS would have been too costly for the Mustang. The 300C uses the same IRS as the base 300 model except for the addition of an antirollbar and different tuning.
So one last time (as I'm sure Dan will have me executed soon). Thank you for confirming that the 300C uses a different setup than the less powerful models. For the sake of argument, I will assume that a.) the changes you note are the only differences and b.) they cost absolutely nothing. So here we sit in our hypothetical little world in which we indeed have a 23K car that can handle 390 ft of torque.
Tell me Andre. Can you get that power for that price? How bout 25K? 27? 29?
You should also re-assess your understanding of the word "prove." Assuming above mentioned hypothetical conditions(which I'm spotting you, btw), your point "proves" only that the 23K 300s IRS can HANDLE a lot of power. That is in no way analogous to stating that it "proves" the IRS expense argument to be "nonsense." On the contrary, you have, with or without intending it, found the strongest evidence in support of Mr. Tang's "trade-off" perspective. Think about it. I agree with you to a point. So did HTT. The Stang very well could have had IRS and still sell for 25K, but just like the 300s at that price range, it would NOT have made 300 hp. The AGGREGATE development and production costs would have simply gone too high. You cannot decompose the costs on a piecemeal basis. Surely even you can understand that. We are paying for a TOTAL PACKAGE with this car, and like any other package, some things will make the cut, others will not. Saying the 05 could have IRS at that price may be valid. As valid as saying it could have DVD navigation, or heated seats (which even the Focus has). But mark my words, something else would have been sacrificed and I don't think any of us would have liked it!
In the end, there is little any of us can do but gripe and counter-gripe. Like you, I haven't taken delivery yet either. I haven't even driven the bloody thing. It may handle like a dream, or the tail end may play hopscotch around every bumpy curve. At this point, it's all conjecture. Let's get some seat time, and perhaps we can resume our little spat afterwards.
peace
8/5/04, 12:08 AM
#111
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Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 5:45 PM
Before this thread is closed let me say there is nothing quite like the mustang...and the chrysler 300 is no mustang, but the fact that chrysler can produce a RWD car with IRS that can handle 390FT of torque for less than $23k proves that it's nonsense to say that IRS would have been too costly for the Mustang. The 300C uses the same IRS as the base 300 model except for the addition of an antirollbar and different tuning.
Boomer I agree
I have no faith in what Mr.Thai-Tang says.
Before this thread is closed let me say there is nothing quite like the mustang...and the chrysler 300 is no mustang, but the fact that chrysler can produce a RWD car with IRS that can handle 390FT of torque for less than $23k proves that it's nonsense to say that IRS would have been too costly for the Mustang. The 300C uses the same IRS as the base 300 model except for the addition of an antirollbar and different tuning.
Boomer I agree
How would it look on Ford if Mr.Thai-Tang came out and said "we wanted to do it, but ford said no, we want to save money, so you got this instead"
Guess you guys have NO idea about PR.
Guess you guys have NO idea about PR.
Nuff said.
8/5/04, 04:55 AM
#113
I Have No Life
I'd be willing to be +50% of the people complaining about the lack of IRS, have never driven a Cobra or car with 300+hp RWD.
-Arguments Forseen...
Vette/Viper etc
Well you know well that an IRS can be made good, and made crap (99.01 Cobra ->shoehorned in, lots of dental bills because of wheelhop)
Just as you don't know that a solid can be made to handle like a dream, as you probably haven't drove in a car that has the same setup.
In that same right, I can probably see a whole bunch of people coming back after the fact and saying how crap the IRS is because they can't launch it properly when racing the SRT4 at the light and getting smoked.
Which again, can be sedated, but not deleted.
Crappy IRS you say being the cause?
Sure...same way as a solid can be made to handle.
Now before I get another email to PM to lock this thread which keeps spinning its wheels...2 things.
1) You hear about my V6 Mustang smoking a viper. you...
a ) call BS immediately, no way it would EVER happen.
b ) Use some gray matter and ask what was done to the V6 (hearing this, still scheptical)
c ) want to know what was done and see a video (could still be scheptical or a one time thing)
d ) were physically there to witness the same 2 drivers making 3 passes on each car, and all 6 times the mustang V6 coming up the winner by at least a car length. Still taken back, but you physically saw it was the machine that lost, not the driver.
Sound familiar...
2nd...
Read reviews with a grain of salt. Great to hear other peoples views on cars, but if they have a mindset going in that its going to stink....its going to stink regardless how well it handles. Human nature.
So again, people who are peeved at the lack of IRS are going to be picking it apart more than an unbiased review.
Test drive it yourself...I mean YOUR the one buying it, not them.
If you do and you agree and its enough NOT to buy it...don't.
Freedom of choice is something we should all be grateful for....
-Arguments Forseen...
Vette/Viper etc
Well you know well that an IRS can be made good, and made crap (99.01 Cobra ->shoehorned in, lots of dental bills because of wheelhop)
Just as you don't know that a solid can be made to handle like a dream, as you probably haven't drove in a car that has the same setup.
In that same right, I can probably see a whole bunch of people coming back after the fact and saying how crap the IRS is because they can't launch it properly when racing the SRT4 at the light and getting smoked.
Which again, can be sedated, but not deleted.
Crappy IRS you say being the cause?
Sure...same way as a solid can be made to handle.
Now before I get another email to PM to lock this thread which keeps spinning its wheels...2 things.
1) You hear about my V6 Mustang smoking a viper. you...
a ) call BS immediately, no way it would EVER happen.
b ) Use some gray matter and ask what was done to the V6 (hearing this, still scheptical)
c ) want to know what was done and see a video (could still be scheptical or a one time thing)
d ) were physically there to witness the same 2 drivers making 3 passes on each car, and all 6 times the mustang V6 coming up the winner by at least a car length. Still taken back, but you physically saw it was the machine that lost, not the driver.
Sound familiar...
2nd...
Read reviews with a grain of salt. Great to hear other peoples views on cars, but if they have a mindset going in that its going to stink....its going to stink regardless how well it handles. Human nature.
So again, people who are peeved at the lack of IRS are going to be picking it apart more than an unbiased review.
Test drive it yourself...I mean YOUR the one buying it, not them.
If you do and you agree and its enough NOT to buy it...don't.
Freedom of choice is something we should all be grateful for....
8/5/04, 07:05 AM
#114
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Originally posted by André@August 5, 2004, 12:35 AM
Dan
Dan, don't get rid of your Probe just in case...
Dan
Andre, mustang buyers aren't stupid. You seem to be implying that people will buy whatever Ford throws in there lap. I believe that people are loyal, but only so far.
Ford had to win me over too. If not, I'd be investing in either a different car. For me, handling is just one component. Styling, interior, powerplant, size, chassis etc. are all important. The only thing left is for me to drive it. That's the last 25%. But baring any major disappointments, I am very happy with what I've seen so far.
My point is, I did not make up my mind to buy this car from the get-go. I wanted to buy this car, but if I'm going to spend just under $30k, it'd better be a great car.
For you, suspension is a very large issue it seems. Its important to me as well, but all in proportion. As you know, I love IRS on my Probe. Handles like a dream. All I'm saying is lets drive this car and see what it can do. For me, if it doesn't handle well I'll give it an 9/10 and still buy it. For you, the scoring may be different.
Right now Thai-Tang said to me that he wants people to drive it before making any conclusions. I agree with him. Drive it and see. He also said that it will exceed many people's expectations. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt but like you guys, the proof will be in the pudding!
So lets stop arguing about why things are the way they are, and just let this issue die until we see some track tests & drive it ourselves.
8/5/04, 07:16 AM
#115
Dan,
this is the most civil IRS vs Solid axle discussion I have seen so far.
The minute one of our members drives the '05 and comments on it drives we can discuss this topic further.
I for one plan on taking a drive on a less than smooth road to see how the '05 responds.
this is the most civil IRS vs Solid axle discussion I have seen so far.
The minute one of our members drives the '05 and comments on it drives we can discuss this topic further.
I for one plan on taking a drive on a less than smooth road to see how the '05 responds.
8/5/04, 07:31 AM
#116
I Have No Life
Originally posted by Galaxie@August 5, 2004, 9:19 AM
Dan,
this is the most civil IRS vs Solid axle discussion I have seen so far.
The minute one of our members drives the '05 and comments on it drives we can discuss this topic further.
I for one plan on taking a drive on a less than smooth road to see how the '05 responds.
Dan,
this is the most civil IRS vs Solid axle discussion I have seen so far.
The minute one of our members drives the '05 and comments on it drives we can discuss this topic further.
I for one plan on taking a drive on a less than smooth road to see how the '05 responds.
8/5/04, 08:24 AM
#117
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Originally posted by Boomer@August 5, 2004, 4:58 AM
I'd be willing to be +50% of the people complaining about the lack of IRS, have never driven a Cobra or car with 300+hp RWD.
I'd be willing to be +50% of the people complaining about the lack of IRS, have never driven a Cobra or car with 300+hp RWD.
It is not that I am perfectly satisfied with the new design. But I am not about to nit pick on something which can be easily modded. That's what Mustangs were all about since beginning. You buy it then make it what you think it should be. So quit yer cry baby antics and put your money where your mouth is!
8/5/04, 09:25 AM
#118
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Originally posted by Dan@August 5, 2004, 7:08 AM
Ford had to win me over too. If not, I'd be investing in either a different car. For me, handling is just one component. Styling, interior, powerplant, size, chassis etc. are all important. The only thing left is for me to drive it. That's the last 25%. But baring any major disappointments, I am very happy with what I've seen so far.
My point is, I did not make up my mind to buy this car from the get-go. I wanted to buy this car, but if I'm going to spend just under $30k, it'd better be a great car.
For you, suspension is a very large issue it seems. Its important to me as well, but all in proportion. As you know, I love IRS on my Probe. Handles like a dream. All I'm saying is lets drive this car and see what it can do. For me, if it doesn't handle well I'll give it an 9/10 and still buy it. For you, the scoring may be different.
Right now Thai-Tang said to me that he wants people to drive it before making any conclusions. I agree with him. Drive it and see. He also said that it will exceed many people's expectations. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt but like you guys, the proof will be in the pudding!
So lets stop arguing about why things are the way they are, and just let this issue die until we see some track tests & drive it ourselves.
Ford had to win me over too. If not, I'd be investing in either a different car. For me, handling is just one component. Styling, interior, powerplant, size, chassis etc. are all important. The only thing left is for me to drive it. That's the last 25%. But baring any major disappointments, I am very happy with what I've seen so far.
My point is, I did not make up my mind to buy this car from the get-go. I wanted to buy this car, but if I'm going to spend just under $30k, it'd better be a great car.
For you, suspension is a very large issue it seems. Its important to me as well, but all in proportion. As you know, I love IRS on my Probe. Handles like a dream. All I'm saying is lets drive this car and see what it can do. For me, if it doesn't handle well I'll give it an 9/10 and still buy it. For you, the scoring may be different.
Right now Thai-Tang said to me that he wants people to drive it before making any conclusions. I agree with him. Drive it and see. He also said that it will exceed many people's expectations. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt but like you guys, the proof will be in the pudding!
So lets stop arguing about why things are the way they are, and just let this issue die until we see some track tests & drive it ourselves.
8/5/04, 11:28 AM
#119
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Originally posted by Dan+August 5, 2004, 9:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dan @ August 5, 2004, 9:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-André@August 5, 2004, 12:35 AM
Dan
Dan, don't get rid of your Probe just in case...
Dan
Andre, mustang buyers aren't stupid. You seem to be implying that people will buy whatever Ford throws in there lap. I believe that people are loyal, but only so far.
Ford had to win me over too. If not, I'd be investing in either a different car. For me, handling is just one component. Styling, interior, powerplant, size, chassis etc. are all important. The only thing left is for me to drive it. That's the last 25%. But baring any major disappointments, I am very happy with what I've seen so far.
My point is, I did not make up my mind to buy this car from the get-go. I wanted to buy this car, but if I'm going to spend just under $30k, it'd better be a great car.
For you, suspension is a very large issue it seems. Its important to me as well, but all in proportion. As you know, I love IRS on my Probe. Handles like a dream. All I'm saying is lets drive this car and see what it can do. For me, if it doesn't handle well I'll give it an 9/10 and still buy it. For you, the scoring may be different.
Right now Thai-Tang said to me that he wants people to drive it before making any conclusions. I agree with him. Drive it and see. He also said that it will exceed many people's expectations. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt but like you guys, the proof will be in the pudding!
So lets stop arguing about why things are the way they are, and just let this issue die until we see some track tests & drive it ourselves. [/b][/quote]
There is nothing wrong with some spirited debate, and while some might prefer this to go away, it won't...I am positive that it's possible to do a credible job with the solid axle but it will be second best and be the mustangs weakness.
The only point some of us are trying to make is that Ford could have done better and the price increase for IRS for all Mustang would have been modest but they decided to penny pinch on this issue and they messed up.
I will forever be a mustang fan and might even buy the new mustang eventually but that does not change the laws of physics...
...and thanks for not shutting this one down.
'