Serious Reservations, doom for the 05?
8/3/04, 10:53 PM
#61
Originally posted by Galaxie@August 3, 2004, 11:29 PM
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
8/3/04, 11:33 PM
#63
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Originally posted by Galaxie@August 4, 2004, 12:29 AM
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
From the start the new mustang was supposed to be equipped with IRS, but as the story goes top management at ford stepped in at the last moment and forced the use of the solid axle as a cost cutting measure, trouble is the IRS setup was almost ready so they were forced put extra people and resources in developping a new rear suspension (live axle) that won't be shared with any other car. In the end we will be paying probably more for an inferior product but it does not matter as long as it's got that little horsey in the grill... :worship:
8/4/04, 12:15 AM
#64
Originally posted by André+August 4, 2004, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (André @ August 4, 2004, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Galaxie@August 4, 2004, 12:29 AM
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
From the start the new mustang was supposed to be equipped with IRS, but as the story goes top management at ford stepped in at the last moment and forced the use of the solid axle as a cost cutting measure, trouble is the IRS setup was almost ready so they were forced put extra people and resources in developping a new rear suspension (live axle) that won't be shared with any other car. In the end we will be paying probably more for an inferior product but it does not matter as long as it's got that little horsey in the grill... :worship: [/b][/quote]
the 3 valve head and aluminum block, double-barrel front mounted TB, shorty headers, etc im SURE costs more then the 2v.
8/4/04, 12:15 AM
#65
Originally posted by Avalanche@August 4, 2004, 12:09 AM
The H1 has IRS, not sure about the H2s. The tires wear out like crazy, and uneven.
The H1 has IRS, not sure about the H2s. The tires wear out like crazy, and uneven.
8/4/04, 12:57 AM
#66
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Originally posted by André@August 3, 2004, 11:36 PM
as far as production cost of the new 4.6L engine won't be more expensive to produce than the old 4.6L engine, so it's not a either or situation, IRS or the new engine.
as far as production cost of the new 4.6L engine won't be more expensive to produce than the old 4.6L engine, so it's not a either or situation, IRS or the new engine.
What would ford know about their own development costs, after all? You would think THEY were ones building the car or something
Did it ever occur to you (or any of the other IRS zealots) that Ford stands to gain little by LYING to it's customer base. For f...s sake, if the lead designer says it would not have been feasible to include IRS at the target price and given the mustang's power output then why not take his word for it. Rational choice suggests that if IRS were no more expensive (much less CHEAPER, your preposterous suggestion) and equally durable then Ford would certainly have included it, now wouldn't they?
IRS zealot: But the S-type R makes a lot of power, so the "too much torque" argument is moot....
A $60,000 vehicle?
If you think the IRS in the back of that Jag (replete with whatever enhancements over the LS setup needed to deal with 400 ft lb) could just bolt up to the back of a Mustang without sizable cost, you must be on crack.I'm also sick of the "but look at the competition! The Mustang is archaic!" As we discussed last week, THERE IS NO COMPETITION. At least not now, not at the Mustang's price point, with 300hp and a rear drive setup. A 2005 GT can in all likelihood be had at 25K. Name me a car w/i 5K of that price that offers that kind of power output and performance in similar package (and no, the 29.999999K, 2 ton station wagon from Dodge does not count)
How many times does this point have to made. If IRS was as cheap, durable, and equivalently performing a setup as the live rear axle, as so many of you claim it must be, then there is simply no reason Ford would have left it out. Besides, Mustang will come with an IRS. It's called a Cobra, and you will pay for it (this simple realization should settle the price/feasibility debate, but then again that would require THINKING)
rant off
8/4/04, 01:31 AM
#67
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Originally posted by André+August 3, 2004, 11:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (André @ August 3, 2004, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Galaxie@August 4, 2004, 12:29 AM
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
You can't make everyone happy,
Had Ford put the IRS in the car, but as a result had to leave the 4.6 2V 260Hp motor in, everyone would be complaining about the lack of power.
From the start the new mustang was supposed to be equipped with IRS, but as the story goes top management at ford stepped in at the last moment and forced the use of the solid axle as a cost cutting measure, trouble is the IRS setup was almost ready so they were forced put extra people and resources in developping a new rear suspension (live axle) that won't be shared with any other car. In the end we will be paying probably more for an inferior product but it does not matter as long as it's got that little horsey in the grill... :worship: [/b][/quote]
Pls don't talk common sense or the truth on this site.........................it's not healthy
. You of course are very correct, but that's not what anyone on this site wants to hear. If objective comments were both welcomed and listened to by the Tangs et al we would be looking at a fine ride with IRS, instead we get a modified 40 year old truck suspension and everyone here is estatic, just don't get it!!!!
8/4/04, 05:44 AM
#68
Andre,
Yes the development cost were not much because a lot of things were pillaged from the parts bin, but at the same time, those parts cost more to manufacture and put on the car, no matter which way you look at it. As much as I would love an IRS, I will reserve judgement until I am behind the wheel flogging the car.
It is a little too late to complain about the live axle in the car, we are stuck with it for at least a few years. Since the man leading the project has an extensive suspension background I will take his word for it and judge it by my own test drive, not based on people's opinions. I suppose the special edition car that will be between the Cobra and GT will have an IRS to appease the ones who want one.
Yes the development cost were not much because a lot of things were pillaged from the parts bin, but at the same time, those parts cost more to manufacture and put on the car, no matter which way you look at it. As much as I would love an IRS, I will reserve judgement until I am behind the wheel flogging the car.
It is a little too late to complain about the live axle in the car, we are stuck with it for at least a few years. Since the man leading the project has an extensive suspension background I will take his word for it and judge it by my own test drive, not based on people's opinions. I suppose the special edition car that will be between the Cobra and GT will have an IRS to appease the ones who want one.
8/4/04, 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by branch@August 2, 2004, 11:16 PM
OK, you guys win:-). I'll give a hard look when it hits the dealership floor, maybe it's a car that has to grow on you, just don't feel it now. I did mention one thing that no one picked up on, or picked on me for that matter...............the incredible reliabilty I have experienced with my 94 GT...................engine runs like new at nearly 100K, so I know Ford knows something about engines, despite it being an all new AL for 05. And just for the record, don't know what a troll is, sure it's not good, and personally only wanted to beg the question 'what is that you guys see that I apparently don't in regards to curb appeal'?????????????? Most were very nice and countered with a 'it's in the eye of the beholder', and that makes sense. sp thanks for being honest, which is what I'm being. Oh, never said the GTO or other car was superior, only in it's handling characteristics predicated on the ONE comparative road test I read here on your great website................so I'll keep 'tuned', maybe will be turned on, if not it's a G35 coupe, 05!!!
OK, you guys win:-). I'll give a hard look when it hits the dealership floor, maybe it's a car that has to grow on you, just don't feel it now. I did mention one thing that no one picked up on, or picked on me for that matter...............the incredible reliabilty I have experienced with my 94 GT...................engine runs like new at nearly 100K, so I know Ford knows something about engines, despite it being an all new AL for 05. And just for the record, don't know what a troll is, sure it's not good, and personally only wanted to beg the question 'what is that you guys see that I apparently don't in regards to curb appeal'?????????????? Most were very nice and countered with a 'it's in the eye of the beholder', and that makes sense. sp thanks for being honest, which is what I'm being. Oh, never said the GTO or other car was superior, only in it's handling characteristics predicated on the ONE comparative road test I read here on your great website................so I'll keep 'tuned', maybe will be turned on, if not it's a G35 coupe, 05!!!
It IS a car that has to grow on you. At first I didn't like it. Now, I LOVE IT! I even bought a Mustang wheel from a junkyard! How crazy is that?!
8/4/04, 07:35 AM
#71
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Originally posted by branch@August 4, 2004, 1:34 AM
we would be looking at a fine ride with IRS, instead we get a modified 40 year old truck suspension and everyone here is estatic, just don't get it!!!!
we would be looking at a fine ride with IRS, instead we get a modified 40 year old truck suspension and everyone here is estatic, just don't get it!!!!
Nobody is forcing you to buy the 2005 Mustang 
You are more than welcomed to go with another brand like the gto, 350z, c5 or whatever IRS pleases your sense of justice.
People if you are not happy with the new Mustang remain with what you got or buy something else. Fair enough?
B)
8/4/04, 07:46 AM
#72
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Originally posted by André@August 3, 2004, 10:45 PM
I don't care what Hau Thai-Tang or any ford rep says, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, the handling and comfort level of the new Mustang will be substandard, you can bet on that!
I don't care what Hau Thai-Tang or any ford rep says, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, the handling and comfort level of the new Mustang will be substandard, you can bet on that!
Second, marketing tactics aside, I think Hau Thai-Tang knows a bit more than us about chasis dynamics and handling. He is a chasis engineer you know. So until its proven otherwise, he said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
Unless someone here has more credentials and experience with the 05 to say otherwise, that's the story I'll believe.
8/4/04, 10:14 AM
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By the way you can get a chrysler 300 with a Five-link independent rear suspension for $23k (base price), and that IRS can handle the power of a 340-horsepower 5.7-liter HEMI V8, so as I said before the cost argument is bogus.
Bottom line is we Mustang fans got screwed by ford, it's a bit like the corvair, GM decided not to put an antiroll bar in the back to make an extra, what was it...$8 bucks profit per car.
Bottom line is we Mustang fans got screwed by ford, it's a bit like the corvair, GM decided not to put an antiroll bar in the back to make an extra, what was it...$8 bucks profit per car.
8/4/04, 10:27 AM
#74
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I think Hau Thai-Tang knows a bit more than us about chasis dynamics and handling. He is a chasis engineer you know. So until its proven otherwise, he said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
Hau Thai-Tang did not decide to go with the solid axle, that decision was made for him.
8/4/04, 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by bob@August 3, 2004, 10:48 PM
IMO, I wish Ford would come out with a very smart looking Cougar based on the Lincoln LS, but fitted with a 4.6 for you IRS guys.
IMO, I wish Ford would come out with a very smart looking Cougar based on the Lincoln LS, but fitted with a 4.6 for you IRS guys.
It would give the folks who want something more sophisticated a reasonable option without having to move up to the Cobra. And it would give Mercury a much-needed attention-getter to anchor the line
8/4/04, 11:10 AM
#76
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Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 10:30 AM
That would mean all the other chassis engineers know little...
Hau Thai-Tang did not decide to go with the solid axle, that decision was made for him.
I think Hau Thai-Tang knows a bit more than us about chasis dynamics and handling. He is a chasis engineer you know. So until its proven otherwise, he said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
Hau Thai-Tang did not decide to go with the solid axle, that decision was made for him.
If only everyone on this site was enlighted to reality THEN maybe Ford would have listened. Sadly, they listen to only their accountants, then Tang etc feeds absolute nonsense to the masses..............most will walk away from the test drive disappointed, and this disappoints me as I wanted to buy an 05 so badly. Howver, I think it will be only fair to get some REAL competitive auto tests, so time will tell. The few we all read on this site spoke of the poorest ride/handling vs the Z, gto, and xr8, not a very good start, but lets be patient for further confirmations.
IMPORTANTLY, one can get a g35 6MT for about $31.5k currently, that's only maybe $4k more than a fully equipped GT, so the price argument is really not fair. For that matter one can get a XR 8 for the price of a GT and gobs and gobs of extra's.............but lacks the wonderful roar of a Mustang ie Tang must think we guys are rather gullible to have fed us the line of reasoning (durabiltiy)Ford did it for the 3% of track ring/pinion set switchers!!!!!!!!!!!............lets get real. I have owned about 8 cars with IRS, all with 100K plus, all abused terribly, not ONE problem, never even 'knew it was there'
8/4/04, 12:12 PM
#77
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Like I said
until its proven otherwise, he (Tang) said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
First off, why beat on this car for not having IRS when they haven't even driven it?
Second, wake up, you're buying a GT for god sake. Ford has made it clear that if you want something better, buy an SE or Cobra. Is that fair to their consumers? Probably not...but that's the reality.
This is one example where you can't have your cake and eat it too. The car is designed already. If you want the "roar of the mustang" and can't afford an SE or Cobra, you're getting a 3-link setup. If IRS is extremely important to you, buy a G35.
Companies have always tried to save money. I still believe it was also an engineering decision as well. Regardless, who knows....... Reality is: the GT has a live axle.
Worst of all, no one has seen any numbers. Nice to cut up a car that hasn't been given a chance to prove itself.
until its proven otherwise, he (Tang) said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
First off, why beat on this car for not having IRS when they haven't even driven it?
Second, wake up, you're buying a GT for god sake. Ford has made it clear that if you want something better, buy an SE or Cobra. Is that fair to their consumers? Probably not...but that's the reality.
This is one example where you can't have your cake and eat it too. The car is designed already. If you want the "roar of the mustang" and can't afford an SE or Cobra, you're getting a 3-link setup. If IRS is extremely important to you, buy a G35.
Companies have always tried to save money. I still believe it was also an engineering decision as well. Regardless, who knows....... Reality is: the GT has a live axle.
Worst of all, no one has seen any numbers. Nice to cut up a car that hasn't been given a chance to prove itself.
8/4/04, 12:14 PM
#78
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Originally posted by André@August 4, 2004, 12:30 PM
That would mean all the other chassis engineers know little...
Hau Thai-Tang did not decide to go with the solid axle, that decision was made for him.
I think Hau Thai-Tang knows a bit more than us about chasis dynamics and handling. He is a chasis engineer you know. So until its proven otherwise, he said it handles EXTREMELY WELL.
Hau Thai-Tang did not decide to go with the solid axle, that decision was made for him.
So if you don't mind, I'll take his word for it and stop worrying about IRS for the time being. I suggest you do the same.
8/4/04, 12:14 PM
#79
I Have No Life
You guys are STILL talking about this issue?
Sarcasm 'on'
Yep we're all screwed.
It won't handle any better than previous stangs.
Its no better
Ford will not sell one 05 Mustang.
Its a failure.
Ford should just mow down all their plants and turn them into parking lots.
Sarcasm 'off'
Why do we close threads like this?
Cause they spin in circles, and people who think the IRS is better regardless of how well built a solid is...can't be convinced otherwise.
Was it cost?
Probably.
How would it look on Ford if Mr.Thai-Tang came out and said "we wanted to do it, but ford said no, we want to save money, so you got this instead"
Guess you guys have NO idea about PR.
I for one don't feel screwed, as I'm sure lots of others don't...while some will feel that ford fed them up the pooper because they didn't get what THEY wanted.....
----and this...all without even giving it a chance on the road.
I reserve my right to complain, but doing so without even being in one....
are the same people that say the RX8 stinks because its not fast.
The mustang wasn't built for YOU in peticular...
its build for a WIDE range of people.
The sooner you come to terms with that...the better off you'll feel....
or won't...and go buy something else...
Thats the beauty of choice....
Feel free to carry on your discussion...
I've read all I need to.
Sarcasm 'on'
Yep we're all screwed.
It won't handle any better than previous stangs.
Its no better
Ford will not sell one 05 Mustang.
Its a failure.
Ford should just mow down all their plants and turn them into parking lots.
Sarcasm 'off'
Why do we close threads like this?
Cause they spin in circles, and people who think the IRS is better regardless of how well built a solid is...can't be convinced otherwise.
Was it cost?
Probably.
How would it look on Ford if Mr.Thai-Tang came out and said "we wanted to do it, but ford said no, we want to save money, so you got this instead"
Guess you guys have NO idea about PR.
I for one don't feel screwed, as I'm sure lots of others don't...while some will feel that ford fed them up the pooper because they didn't get what THEY wanted.....
----and this...all without even giving it a chance on the road.
I reserve my right to complain, but doing so without even being in one....
are the same people that say the RX8 stinks because its not fast.
The mustang wasn't built for YOU in peticular...
its build for a WIDE range of people.
The sooner you come to terms with that...the better off you'll feel....
or won't...and go buy something else...
Thats the beauty of choice....
Feel free to carry on your discussion...
I've read all I need to.