New engine Required for VCT failure???
6/17/12, 05:28 PM
#21
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Here is some service manual Info which maybe helpful.
KC
KC
Last edited by 05stangkc; 6/17/12 at 05:40 PM.
6/18/12, 07:57 PM
#23
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Thanks. I was really hoping that the tech could explain the differences between the stock relief valve spring pressure, stated to be 60 lbs by Melling, and the 2000 rpm pressure of 75 lbs, according to Ford and Haynes. But he hadn't heard about the 2k rpm pressure and then offer an explanation for the difference.
6/21/12, 06:54 AM
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I have now replaced the oil pump and both solenoids. Now 75+ psi at start up & slowly drops to 35 as it idles down. I can rev it to 2k, and the pressure goes up to 75. The engine sounds fantastic for about 5 minutes or so.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
No codes came up.
Oil leaking from the phaser? Please chime in.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
No codes came up.
Oil leaking from the phaser? Please chime in.
6/22/12, 02:17 PM
#25
Can we get a little clarification on which engine we are talking about?
Is this a 2008 Job 2 4.6L V8 with the new heads that use 1 piece spark plugs?
Is this a 2008 Job 2 4.6L V8 with the new heads that use 1 piece spark plugs?
Last edited by Buckshot Barry; 6/23/12 at 09:20 PM.
6/22/12, 03:10 PM
#26
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I have now replaced the oil pump and both solenoids. Now 75+ psi at start up & slowly drops to 35 as it idles down. I can rev it to 2k, and the pressure goes up to 75. The engine sounds fantastic for about 5 minutes or so.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
No codes came up.
Oil leaking from the phaser? Please chime in.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
No codes came up.
Oil leaking from the phaser? Please chime in.
I'm just reasoning here (hope a mechanic with VCT experience comments). Since the VCT is all hydraulic, I'm thinking that at idle there really isn't any cam timing change occurring. I believe it is at higher rpm (with more oil pressure) that VCT would come into play and adjust cam timing.
So the tapping at idle makes on think of a failing lash adjuster or roller on the finger follower. I've read about some noise from the front being related to the chain tensioners.
The surging at idle makes me think about dirty throttle body and/or MAF - both unrelated to the tapping.
You said you reloaded the tune so that should eliminate a corrupted tune file.
Puzzling...
Last edited by cdynaco; 6/22/12 at 03:12 PM.
6/24/12, 10:10 AM
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6/25/12, 06:03 AM
#28
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I have now replaced the oil pump and both solenoids. Now 75+ psi at start up & slowly drops to 35 as it idles down. I can rev it to 2k, and the pressure goes up to 75. The engine sounds fantastic for about 5 minutes or so.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
However, as the temp gets higher, the pressure continues to drop. At about 160* or so, it drops to under 10 psi, and at 2k rpms, it only goes up to about 50 psi. There is a steady tapping that sounds like it's coming from the front of the head on the passenger's side. After about, 10 minutes or so, the idle gets rough again, knocking & surging.
From what I have gathered, the pressure should be 25-30 psi at idle. This is just from where others have posted there idle psi. I haven't found a Ford spec. When mine is at that pressure, it idles fine. If anyone has a manual gauge hooked up to theirs, please let me know what the idle psi is.
When I give it gas and get above 2k rpms, it seems fine, except that the psi is at 50 or so. Even at 4k rpms, the pressure is only at 60 psi, when Ford says at 2k it should be at 75 psi.
Thanks 05stangkc for the schematics of the oil flow.
Thanks for all of the input. Keep it coming.
6/26/12, 08:21 AM
#29
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I'm trying to figure out the oiling system info posted by 05stangkc (thanks again) and determine where I might be losing oil pressure when the car gets up to operating temp.
On page 2 of 4.6Engineoiling.pdf, it says that the pressure is reduced as it enters the cylinder head galleries through fixed serviceable orifices located at the upper part of the feed passages.
. Oil at the reduced pressure then feeds the camshaft journals, hydraulic lash adjusters, and primary and secondary timing chain tensioners.
. The VCT solenoids, VCT housings, phasers, & sprockets remain under pressure.
. The lobes and followers are lubricated by splash via valve train operation.
Even if parts are under reduced pressure, could there be excessive oil loss at an orifice causing a substantial loss in pressure to the parts of the system under pressure?
Thanks.
On page 2 of 4.6Engineoiling.pdf, it says that the pressure is reduced as it enters the cylinder head galleries through fixed serviceable orifices located at the upper part of the feed passages.
. Oil at the reduced pressure then feeds the camshaft journals, hydraulic lash adjusters, and primary and secondary timing chain tensioners.
. The VCT solenoids, VCT housings, phasers, & sprockets remain under pressure.
. The lobes and followers are lubricated by splash via valve train operation.
Even if parts are under reduced pressure, could there be excessive oil loss at an orifice causing a substantial loss in pressure to the parts of the system under pressure?
Thanks.
Last edited by 300angryhorses; 7/14/12 at 01:39 PM.
6/28/12, 04:38 PM
#30
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I just found all kinds of info that may be related to this on an F150 forum. They've replaced cam positioners, oil pump, phasers, plugs, etc. One solution that is working is changing to 15w-40! Also talks about oil pressures.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...sometimes.html
#14
common issue:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum48/
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...sometimes.html
#14
common issue:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum48/
6/29/12, 01:55 PM
#31
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I just found all kinds of info that may be related to this on an F150 forum. They've replaced cam positioners, oil pump, phasers, plugs, etc. One solution that is working is changing to 15w-40! Also talks about oil pressures.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...sometimes.html
#14
common issue:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum48/
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...sometimes.html
#14
common issue:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum48/
6/29/12, 02:25 PM
#32
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However what's frustrating is it doesn't explain the problem and why Ford says don't do anything about it, nor does it explain the low oil pressure.
Like one guy said, hard to sell a truck with such ticking. Valve train noise is one thing but elevated ticking is another. Seems to be moreso on the 5.4L's.
Found more. Good stuff:
http://www.f150forum.com/f68/5-4l-ca...oes-bad-22757/
Last edited by cdynaco; 6/29/12 at 02:34 PM.
6/29/12, 04:29 PM
#34
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Love hands on tips like these (assuming it works):
Jamie Marshall:
http://www.f150forum.com/f68/5-4l-ca...6/#post1148327
you guys are going to laugh at me but I solved this problem after building 20 or so 3v's and that act like this after warm up,Drop the oil pan as far as you can unscrew the pressure releaf valve and insert 4 or 5 washers to hold the valve open then re assemble this boosts oil pressure in the top end making the phasers work correctly!enjoy
**
I have been researching this heavily as I am about to buy a used 08 expo 5.4 from a friend. Within the last month it has started to tick and slowly gotten much louder.
@ Jamie Marshall.... did adding the washers resolve the issue without replacing the phasers that were clacking or did you replace them and then shim the preasure relief valve to keep it from happening again.
Also was this a one time occurrence or have you fixed the problem on multiple motors using this method?
I REALLY appreciate you input on this!!!
**
Where is the pressure relief valve? Do you have any pictures? Has this been successful more than one?
**
It's an allen headed bolt 8mm i think just drop the oil pan as far as you can in the rig then look up in there its at the front of the engine on the bottom of the oil pump add 4 or 5 washers between the spring and the allen head then reassemble I have personally done this to over 15 3v's and it has worked every time for me,I also have added thicker oil (20-40) to solve this problem also sometimes it will fix the existing phaser other times you have to replace one of them(the one that's making noise)its not real often you see them both **** the bed hope this helps
**
Just so I fully understand, shimming the oil pressure relief valve to raise oil pressure has fixed a few motors that had loud/clacking phasers? You didn't have to replace the phasers in conjunction with the "fix" to solve the issue?
What kind of oil pressure numbers are you seeing once you have shimmed the relief valve?
Thanks for your help! I'm going to give this a try BEFORE I order up the phasers.
**
yes it has fixed phasers making noise,but you need to find out if your phasers are junk because of somthing inside of them or if there acting up from lack of oil pressure you can do this by removing the oil galley plug on the rear of the driverside head and hooking up a manual oil pressure gauge there should be atleast 33 psi at the head when the engine is at running temp.
Another situation I have come across is one phaser is stuck open stealing oil pressure from the other one making it make the loud noise.Most of the time the phaser making noise is acually still good but the one thats not making noise is the bad one
Ive also seen the screens in the sensors that stick up through the front of the valve covers get plugged up they have a very fine screen in them somtimes taking them out and givin them some brake clean works
Ive also seen the clearances be to big on crank/cam shafts causing oil pressure loss mostly on the front cam caps
***
Also, just for everyone's benefit, GM has this same problem. The cam phasers in the trailblazers will tick and rattle if the oil passages get clogged up too..so it's not JUST a Ford problem!
http://www.f150forum.com/f68/5-4l-ca...6/#post1148327
you guys are going to laugh at me but I solved this problem after building 20 or so 3v's and that act like this after warm up,Drop the oil pan as far as you can unscrew the pressure releaf valve and insert 4 or 5 washers to hold the valve open then re assemble this boosts oil pressure in the top end making the phasers work correctly!enjoy
**
I have been researching this heavily as I am about to buy a used 08 expo 5.4 from a friend. Within the last month it has started to tick and slowly gotten much louder.
@ Jamie Marshall.... did adding the washers resolve the issue without replacing the phasers that were clacking or did you replace them and then shim the preasure relief valve to keep it from happening again.
Also was this a one time occurrence or have you fixed the problem on multiple motors using this method?
I REALLY appreciate you input on this!!!
**
Where is the pressure relief valve? Do you have any pictures? Has this been successful more than one?
**
It's an allen headed bolt 8mm i think just drop the oil pan as far as you can in the rig then look up in there its at the front of the engine on the bottom of the oil pump add 4 or 5 washers between the spring and the allen head then reassemble I have personally done this to over 15 3v's and it has worked every time for me,I also have added thicker oil (20-40) to solve this problem also sometimes it will fix the existing phaser other times you have to replace one of them(the one that's making noise)its not real often you see them both **** the bed hope this helps
**
Just so I fully understand, shimming the oil pressure relief valve to raise oil pressure has fixed a few motors that had loud/clacking phasers? You didn't have to replace the phasers in conjunction with the "fix" to solve the issue?
What kind of oil pressure numbers are you seeing once you have shimmed the relief valve?
Thanks for your help! I'm going to give this a try BEFORE I order up the phasers.
**
yes it has fixed phasers making noise,but you need to find out if your phasers are junk because of somthing inside of them or if there acting up from lack of oil pressure you can do this by removing the oil galley plug on the rear of the driverside head and hooking up a manual oil pressure gauge there should be atleast 33 psi at the head when the engine is at running temp.
Another situation I have come across is one phaser is stuck open stealing oil pressure from the other one making it make the loud noise.Most of the time the phaser making noise is acually still good but the one thats not making noise is the bad one
Ive also seen the screens in the sensors that stick up through the front of the valve covers get plugged up they have a very fine screen in them somtimes taking them out and givin them some brake clean works
Ive also seen the clearances be to big on crank/cam shafts causing oil pressure loss mostly on the front cam caps
***
Also, just for everyone's benefit, GM has this same problem. The cam phasers in the trailblazers will tick and rattle if the oil passages get clogged up too..so it's not JUST a Ford problem!
7/8/12, 10:31 PM
#36
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I had to take some time off from working on it, but I'm back at it.
In post #4 from this modularfords thread, a guy from Livernois provides an explanation for the phaser ticking:
http://www.modularfords.com/f79/cam-...-again-122579/
In post #4 from this modularfords thread, a guy from Livernois provides an explanation for the phaser ticking:
http://www.modularfords.com/f79/cam-...-again-122579/
7/22/12, 04:43 AM
#39
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I've never really messed with OHC engines with bearingless journals but looking at the lead journal (thrust journal??) it looks wiped and your cams too.
I also notice that the towers are intergal to the heads
If thats the case, I wonder if somebody has a bearing kit and how costly it would be to implement it?
I also notice that the towers are intergal to the heads
If thats the case, I wonder if somebody has a bearing kit and how costly it would be to implement it?