Next SVT Mustang may axe Shelby name, go naturally aspirated
Shelby GT500 Member
Joined: March 3, 2004
Posts: 2,634
Likes: 0
From: Richmond VA
There's too many factors to really know - the car is more expensive than the previous gen but it also offered a bigger jump in horsepower than before too (at least until 2011). '04 GT made 260 HP and Cobra made 390 HP (50% increase) while '07 GT made 300 HP while Shelby made 500 ( 66% increase). So was it the power or the name, or both? Who knows!
Anecdotally, the Shelby has attracted an older crowd better than the previous Cobra, it seems like. That's partially because the price makes it unattainable for most younger guys but I bet the appeal is up too, if it was measurable.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 536
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
I think too many people are focused on the historical, or racing, aspects of the new car.
Remember, Ford's primary goal is to sell cars. The last thing they want to do is overwhelm a potential customer with too many options (or cars that don't follow a clear price/performance scale), so that they walk away and buy something else. "Specialty versions" are for later in a car's lifespan, where Ford would need to differentiate the new vehicles, without a complete redesign. Just look at the success Ford had with the 2005 platform.... introduce v6 & gt in coupe and convertible models, with 2 trim levels. Add GT500 2 years later. Let Shelby build a couple of specialty vehicles starting in 2007 as well. Add Boss 302 5 years later.
Ford is already complicating things with the EcoBoost offering... but that will succeed in getting current v6 owners to upgrade. They'll upgrade the HP in the 5.0 offering to help get current GT owners to upgrade, and attract a few 2012 and earlier GT500 owners into a new vehicle.
Ford will then have a decision to make as to how they want to compete at the top end of the market. Starting in 2017, they'll begin offering a FI Coyote, some big behemoth naturally aspirated, or bring back the 5.8, and that'll be the new GT500, whether it be called that, or not.
Remember, Ford's primary goal is to sell cars. The last thing they want to do is overwhelm a potential customer with too many options (or cars that don't follow a clear price/performance scale), so that they walk away and buy something else. "Specialty versions" are for later in a car's lifespan, where Ford would need to differentiate the new vehicles, without a complete redesign. Just look at the success Ford had with the 2005 platform.... introduce v6 & gt in coupe and convertible models, with 2 trim levels. Add GT500 2 years later. Let Shelby build a couple of specialty vehicles starting in 2007 as well. Add Boss 302 5 years later.
Ford is already complicating things with the EcoBoost offering... but that will succeed in getting current v6 owners to upgrade. They'll upgrade the HP in the 5.0 offering to help get current GT owners to upgrade, and attract a few 2012 and earlier GT500 owners into a new vehicle.
Ford will then have a decision to make as to how they want to compete at the top end of the market. Starting in 2017, they'll begin offering a FI Coyote, some big behemoth naturally aspirated, or bring back the 5.8, and that'll be the new GT500, whether it be called that, or not.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: May 16, 2004
Posts: 5,206
Likes: 18
From: Bristol, TN
Wasn't really an new engine they developed, just tweaked an existing one.
What is GM doing with 6.2's? Making the same power as Ford's smaller 5.0? Putting a blower on it and making less power than Ford's smaller 5.8? While GM's 7.0L is a pretty good engine it's rather sad that it only makes 505HP, which is only about 60 more than the little 5.0 in the Boss.
What is GM doing with 6.2's? Making the same power as Ford's smaller 5.0? Putting a blower on it and making less power than Ford's smaller 5.8? While GM's 7.0L is a pretty good engine it's rather sad that it only makes 505HP, which is only about 60 more than the little 5.0 in the Boss.
In any event HP/L and TQ/L (a better measure) are just a few dimensions to evaluate an engine with. Power density, Brake specific fuel consumption, mechanical efficiency and so on are other factors that need to be looked at before one can truly dump on the engineering prowess of the other brand.
BOSS Member
Joined: May 21, 2010
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
500hp is 500hp, it only matters on the internet how you get there.
In any event HP/L and TQ/L (a better measure) are just a few dimensions to evaluate an engine with. Power density, Brake specific fuel consumption, mechanical efficiency and so on are other factors that need to be looked at before one can truly dump on the engineering prowess of the other brand.
In any event HP/L and TQ/L (a better measure) are just a few dimensions to evaluate an engine with. Power density, Brake specific fuel consumption, mechanical efficiency and so on are other factors that need to be looked at before one can truly dump on the engineering prowess of the other brand.
...AND OFFER TRACK WARRANTIES!!! Make each owner/competitor feel as if Ford is in a sponsorship role of an amateur. It would feel like you had factory support for the 1st season. That would feel WONDERFUL!!
Hell, don't even call it a warranty... Option it as Competition Factory Support. 1 year/15,000 miles and maybe charge a little for it ($900-$1900). It covers drivetrain, suspension and supporting systems. No body damage, consumables or wheel/tire wear. However, a service discount for someone that has a Ford "R" account could get discounts during the season on your typical service items. Talk about stimulating a segment.
Hell, don't even call it a warranty... Option it as Competition Factory Support. 1 year/15,000 miles and maybe charge a little for it ($900-$1900). It covers drivetrain, suspension and supporting systems. No body damage, consumables or wheel/tire wear. However, a service discount for someone that has a Ford "R" account could get discounts during the season on your typical service items. Talk about stimulating a segment.
That's why I'm wondering how the Shelby and Cobra did if you weight them by penetration into regular Mustang sales. Its easy to say the numbers are in favor of the Cobra name but it could be possible that the Shelby captured a greater number of sales percentage wise.
Also its worth considering Ford's sales strategy for each model and how did the cost and relative performance of the regular Mustang effect the sales of the Cobra and GT500.
For example;
Prior to at least the 1999 Mustang GT, if you wanted a performance Mustang, the Cobra was the only game in town if you were a Ford guy and wanted to go toe to toe with GM.
All stuff to consider rather than making a blanket judgment as again for example a few boned years of Cobra production give a lower average compared to the GT500 which has been on sale half the time but posts a higher average sales number which could lead one to believe that slow and steady wins the race as average GT500 sales have been higher.
In any event when I'm not feeling so lazy, maybe I'll see how each car penetrated into regular Mustang sales.
Also its worth considering Ford's sales strategy for each model and how did the cost and relative performance of the regular Mustang effect the sales of the Cobra and GT500.
For example;
Prior to at least the 1999 Mustang GT, if you wanted a performance Mustang, the Cobra was the only game in town if you were a Ford guy and wanted to go toe to toe with GM.
All stuff to consider rather than making a blanket judgment as again for example a few boned years of Cobra production give a lower average compared to the GT500 which has been on sale half the time but posts a higher average sales number which could lead one to believe that slow and steady wins the race as average GT500 sales have been higher.
In any event when I'm not feeling so lazy, maybe I'll see how each car penetrated into regular Mustang sales.
This is MY kind of numbers. I LOVE seeing this stuff. Great work by the way. I am very interested in seeing your results should you take on your own challenge.
Last edited by Ice Hawk; Jun 18, 2013 at 08:23 AM.
Cobra R Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
You're missing my point. The statement was "look at what GM is doing with 6.2L". Which is not all that impressive when compared to what Ford has done as of late with their engines. I would love for GM to be more innovative with their engines and products but they are perpetually stuck in playing follow the leader and coming up with products as a knee jerk reaction. Take their newest trucks for example which are barely competitive with the current offerings. Next year when the new F150 is available GM will once again be caught with their pants down and scrambling for an answer due to all the innovation Ford will have on it.
BOSS Member
Joined: May 21, 2010
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Exactly! They never want to take a chance on a bold new design or something really unique. Look at the Raptor; people thought they were crazy building a dedicated off-road truck for the street but it turned out to be a run away success. They can't build them fast enough and used ones sell for close to new sticker prices. If GM ever came out with a competitor for it (it's only been 4 years now), not only would it be a half-assed attempt (probably only an option package anyway) it would certainly fail.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: February 8, 2004
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 7
From: Cincinnati, OH
Cobra R Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice a very late move to claim some Miata/S2000/Boxster and Corvette wannabes. Great looking car, poorly thought out and seemingly rushed to market. I wish it had survived and evolved properly.
XLR, and attempt at Corvette platform sharing and a way to extend the Cadillac brand. Similar problem to the Solstice. Looked far better than it functioned, especially for the price.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: February 8, 2004
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 7
From: Cincinnati, OH
Did you drive it and form those impressions?
Cobra R Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
That's the nature of the competitive car market. And as a response to government pressure, every car we have out there is influenced by safety regulations. I see a lot of opinions that dog the Volt, but its powertrain solution for removing "range anxiety" is unique.
One could say the Miata was a very late move to claim the British roadster title.
Did you drive it and form those impressions?
Cobra Member
Joined: July 11, 2007
Posts: 1,499
Likes: 0
Bullitt Member
Joined: October 30, 2004
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
From: Romeoville, Illinois
I'd like to see the SVT Cobra name return, as well as the philosophy of a holistic approach to vehicle improvement, as opposed to the current mantra of stuffing a big engine in (much as I like big engines). Not really sure what induction approach I favor, though. I think it'll use some form of Coyote, as the 5.8 and the 6.2 won't fit in S550.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: April 11, 2012
Posts: 981
Likes: 4
From: Houston, TX
It wasn't exactly practical... for anything. But it was unique. lol
I do, though, see where y'all are going with this.
Ford has done extremely well leading the market in ideas.
The retro '05 Mustang started the Dodge and GM throwbacks...
The Boss sparked the track oriented editions (1LE)
The GT500 sparked the ZL1
The Raptor, of course, sparked Dodge's "Ram-Runner"
Ford's done well. I'm still proud to belong to the Ford family.
And I'm excited to drive whatever the new top of the line Mustang will be... someday.
It will be leading the pack again.
Last edited by Krohn; Jul 18, 2013 at 03:51 PM.
Legacy TMS Member
Joined: February 8, 2004
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 7
From: Cincinnati, OH
Bullitt Member
Joined: August 3, 2012
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
From: Cali
Even though it was a flop (my dad has an LS2 '05), the SSR was pretty original.
It wasn't exactly practical... for anything. But it was unique. lol
I do, though, see where y'all are going with this.
Ford has done extremely well leading the market in ideas.
The retro '05 Mustang started the Dodge and GM throwbacks...
The Boss sparked the track oriented editions (1LE)
The GT500 sparked the ZL1
The Raptor, of course, sparked Dodge's "Ram-Runner"
Ford's done well. I'm still proud to belong to the Ford family.
And I'm excited to drive whatever the new top of the line Mustang will be... someday.
It will be leading the pack again.
It wasn't exactly practical... for anything. But it was unique. lol
I do, though, see where y'all are going with this.
Ford has done extremely well leading the market in ideas.
The retro '05 Mustang started the Dodge and GM throwbacks...
The Boss sparked the track oriented editions (1LE)
The GT500 sparked the ZL1
The Raptor, of course, sparked Dodge's "Ram-Runner"
Ford's done well. I'm still proud to belong to the Ford family.
And I'm excited to drive whatever the new top of the line Mustang will be... someday.
It will be leading the pack again.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: April 11, 2012
Posts: 981
Likes: 4
From: Houston, TX
That'd be quite different. lol ...and anything is possible!
I pray that's not the next Cobra though. lol
Last edited by Krohn; Jul 19, 2013 at 06:20 AM.
