Anyone gone supercharged and regretted it?
2/13/16, 10:29 AM
#41
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Am I correct in my thinking on this in regards to FI engines on track cars?
#1 heat. These cars already run hot as is so slapping a giant heat generator to your engine is not going to be a good thing. You can't just add a big intercooler and run 30 minute sessions on track. This isn't your DD where you are going to run 300 miles on the highway. This is actual racing. Additional heat is also a very bad thing for your motor, your oil, and your bearings. The only person I know to have done this was you on the Blue car and you had ridiculous amounts of cooling and intercoolers etc. to get it to stay cool while running hard. Brian Faessler also runs a turbo on his TTU Mustang, but his cooling setup is reminiscent of that you would see in a drag setup at least in his 2014 Mustang. I would have to see what his 2015 looks like
#2 weight. You are putting an extra 100+lbs. On your car in the worst place you can add the additional weight. This is all fine and dandy if you are a weekend cruiser or you are running on strip, but on course just think about a) what that additional weight is going to do to a car that weighs 3500+ lbs. already b) what that weight is going to do to your handling being on the nose end of your car.
#3 power delivery. I guess that is where the centrifugal and turbos come into play as the better options more so than the roots style blowers. Power delivery is now worse because instead of being able to come out of a turn and lay into the throttle to get the car to stick and pull through the corner you have to try and feather the throttle in order to get the tires to stick and not blow off and send your *** end sliding.
#1 heat. These cars already run hot as is so slapping a giant heat generator to your engine is not going to be a good thing. You can't just add a big intercooler and run 30 minute sessions on track. This isn't your DD where you are going to run 300 miles on the highway. This is actual racing. Additional heat is also a very bad thing for your motor, your oil, and your bearings. The only person I know to have done this was you on the Blue car and you had ridiculous amounts of cooling and intercoolers etc. to get it to stay cool while running hard. Brian Faessler also runs a turbo on his TTU Mustang, but his cooling setup is reminiscent of that you would see in a drag setup at least in his 2014 Mustang. I would have to see what his 2015 looks like
#2 weight. You are putting an extra 100+lbs. On your car in the worst place you can add the additional weight. This is all fine and dandy if you are a weekend cruiser or you are running on strip, but on course just think about a) what that additional weight is going to do to a car that weighs 3500+ lbs. already b) what that weight is going to do to your handling being on the nose end of your car.
#3 power delivery. I guess that is where the centrifugal and turbos come into play as the better options more so than the roots style blowers. Power delivery is now worse because instead of being able to come out of a turn and lay into the throttle to get the car to stick and pull through the corner you have to try and feather the throttle in order to get the tires to stick and not blow off and send your *** end sliding.
Yes, yes and yes.
#1 heat. Street driving is the easiest scenario. No one should encounter any issues here unless your install is wrong or your tuner just plain sucks. You cannot tax a car enough on the street (even assuming disregard for the law
) to start to see any of these problems. So the people with street cars saying they have "no heat issues" should probably be mostly ignored. Drag racing is also comparatively easy on parts, tune, etc. You are at full power, boost for mere seconds, then the car gets to cool 30 minutes +. Road racing (not the SCCA parking lot cone racing,lol), on a real road course, is where the very highest of stresses to a vehicle come into play. You are at sustained high load, boost, and power levels for 30 minutes+ straight. Not only that but other components like brakes, transmission, rear axle start to reach critical heat soak/operational temperature limits. Again this is impossible to duplicate either drag racing (even hot lapping it), or romping around on the street a little bit. You typically don't see a bunch of "1000 hp" road course bullets like you do at the strip. It just isn't reliable, feasible, or needed (in ANY platform, not just Mustangs)#2 Mustangs are already miserably nose heavy. Bolting on the supercharger, bracketry, intercooler, piping, etc all adds weight were you don't want it- the nose. You'll make the push happy car even more so, and compounding the problem essentially by adding a bunch of HP at the back wheels. You want "balance", not HP if you are after a well handling vehicle.
#3 If I had to, your suggestions are correct in that both of those will make "putting power down" a lot easier. Centri's and turbo's tend to shine at higher rpm's, which is where most road course type driving takes place. You only get to boot it out of the hole once, after that your roots/whipple type blower is out of its element in a road course. Also, the discharge air temp of a roots blower is significantly elevated at high rpm's at the same boost compared to a centri or turbo. That makes that kind of blower a bad match for road course type driving, imho.
Now I'm sure there are some people with wicked fast corner carvers with roots blowers, but I'm guessing that to very much be an exception than a rule.
2/14/16, 07:23 AM
#42
Bullitt Member
Yes, yes and yes.
#1 heat. Street driving is the easiest scenario. No one should encounter any issues here unless your install is wrong or your tuner just plain sucks. You cannot tax a car enough on the street (even assuming disregard for the law) to start to see any of these problems.
#1 heat. Street driving is the easiest scenario. No one should encounter any issues here unless your install is wrong or your tuner just plain sucks. You cannot tax a car enough on the street (even assuming disregard for the law
) to start to see any of these problems.Most blower kits as delivered have IAT issues under normal driving conditions. Which means when you go for your one quick blast you're already down on power. Keeping IAT's down under normal driving is a huge challenge......for all but one combination.
Drag racing is also comparatively easy on parts, tune, etc. You are at full power, boost for mere seconds, then the car gets to cool 30 minutes +.
Road racing (not the SCCA parking lot cone racing,lol), on a real road course, is where the very highest of stresses to a vehicle come into play. You are at sustained high load, boost, and power levels for 30 minutes+ straight. Not only that but other components like brakes, transmission, rear axle start to reach critical heat soak/operational temperature limits. Again this is impossible to duplicate either drag racing (even hot lapping it), or romping around on the street a little bit. You typically don't see a bunch of "1000 hp" road course bullets like you do at the strip. It just isn't reliable, feasible, or needed (in ANY platform, not just Mustangs)
You only get to boot it out of the hole once, after that your roots/whipple type blower is out of its element in a road course.
Also, the discharge air temp of a roots blower is significantly elevated at high rpm's at the same boost compared to a centri or turbo.
2/14/16, 07:32 AM
#43
Bullitt Member
Sqidd... We've talked about this before. I agreed with you then and I agree with you now. 
. I said I have "no heat issues". I'm not saying FI cars don't run hotter than NA cars. My point is that there's no ill effect to me because I don't track or race for it to be an issue. If on the street, at times, I'm not getting all 575 whp, I'm quite ok with that. Lol.
So again, does it get hot? Sure. Do I have heat issues? No.
. I said I have "no heat issues". I'm not saying FI cars don't run hotter than NA cars. My point is that there's no ill effect to me because I don't track or race for it to be an issue. If on the street, at times, I'm not getting all 575 whp, I'm quite ok with that. Lol.So again, does it get hot? Sure. Do I have heat issues? No.
First my smart AZZ answer:
Saying you have no heat issues because you don't care if you're down on power is like saying your STD itsn't an issue because at the moment you're not itchy/burny.
My other point is that I think people cut aftermarket companies WAY TOO MUCH SLACK. If your stone stock Mustang was 30% down on power once the car got up to normal operating temp you (and everyone else) would be screaming bloody murder, lemon law-ing the car and probably joining a class action law suit to sue Ford.
Why is it ok when a $6000+ aftermarket part is down 30% under most driving conditions? Why does the aftermarket get a pass?
Last edited by sqidd; 2/14/16 at 07:33 AM.
2/14/16, 08:21 AM
#44
I Have No Life
Originally Posted by sqidd
Two points:
First my smart AZZ answer:
Saying you have no heat issues because you don't care if you're down on power is like saying your STD itsn't an issue because at the moment you're not itchy/burny.
My other point is that I think people cut aftermarket companies WAY TOO MUCH SLACK. If your stone stock Mustang was 30% down on power once the car got up to normal operating temp you (and everyone else) would be screaming bloody murder, lemon law-ing the car and probably joining a class action law suit to sue Ford.
Why is it ok when a $6000+ aftermarket part is down 30% under most driving conditions? Why does the aftermarket get a pass?
First my smart AZZ answer:
Saying you have no heat issues because you don't care if you're down on power is like saying your STD itsn't an issue because at the moment you're not itchy/burny.
My other point is that I think people cut aftermarket companies WAY TOO MUCH SLACK. If your stone stock Mustang was 30% down on power once the car got up to normal operating temp you (and everyone else) would be screaming bloody murder, lemon law-ing the car and probably joining a class action law suit to sue Ford.
Why is it ok when a $6000+ aftermarket part is down 30% under most driving conditions? Why does the aftermarket get a pass?
Someday, if I feel so inclined, I'll upgrade the intercooler, water, etc, as you recommended before. Someday maybe. But for now, I see no need. Yes, my STD is in remission
Last edited by FromZto5; 2/14/16 at 08:23 AM.
2/15/16, 11:47 AM
#45
Lol,
This post has officially turned into a pissing match. I believe OP's questions was has anyone regretted adding a SC? If you don't have a SC on your coyote why are your here?
Seems like a lot of jealousy on behalf of those that don't have one. How did a Mazda Miata even come up in this post? OP wanted opinions from those that have a current SC installed on their coyote, and not a synopsis or opinions from others who do not have one.
If there was a significant amount of cars having bad experiences adding SC's, I don't think these companies would still be in business! The one thing a person needs to understand after adding a super chargers is learn how to drive the car again. This could take some time but it is highly recommended.
V/R
A guy who has a VMP 2.3 TVS on a 2014 GT/CS with no issues!
This post has officially turned into a pissing match. I believe OP's questions was has anyone regretted adding a SC? If you don't have a SC on your coyote why are your here?
Seems like a lot of jealousy on behalf of those that don't have one. How did a Mazda Miata even come up in this post? OP wanted opinions from those that have a current SC installed on their coyote, and not a synopsis or opinions from others who do not have one.
If there was a significant amount of cars having bad experiences adding SC's, I don't think these companies would still be in business! The one thing a person needs to understand after adding a super chargers is learn how to drive the car again. This could take some time but it is highly recommended.
V/R
A guy who has a VMP 2.3 TVS on a 2014 GT/CS with no issues!
2/15/16, 01:04 PM
#46
Legacy TMS Member
I do have air intake temp monitoring. And I have no heat issues for the driving that I do. I don't suspect I would have any issues on the track either, but I also don't believe that's what the OP was asking about either. So let's leave it at this: for 95% of normal driving conditions including city, highway, drag racing, and parking lot performance events most systems would be fine. Maybe not ideal? But fine. For a closed course 30 minute multiple lap event, you might fall into the 5% category.
2/15/16, 01:07 PM
#47
Bullitt Member
I do have air intake temp monitoring. And I have no heat issues for the driving that I do. I don't suspect I would have any issues on the track either, but I also don't believe that's what the OP was asking about either. So let's leave it at this: for 95% of normal driving conditions including city, highway, drag racing, and parking lot performance events most systems would be fine. Maybe not ideal? But fine. For a closed course 30 minute multiple lap event, you might fall into the 5% category.
Most of them read way low. What does yours read under normal driving?
2/15/16, 02:03 PM
#48
Super Boss Lawman Member
Slightly off topic, but it is SC related: Squid, my MAF (and I assume IAT) sensor is located at the discharge outlet of my intercooler. The tubing doesn't have far to go from there to the throttle body (
2/15/16, 06:25 PM
#49
Bullitt Member
The PD blower IAT sensors are a lot more representative of actual IAT's then the ones in the MAF. It's not a huge deal using the MAF on a Centri for IAT's if big boost isn't being played with though. There is plenty of wiggle room before actual damage. But if I was running a Centri and playing with 15psi+ I would add a PD style sensor to the intake manifold and get my IAT info for the PCM there.
PD and Centri IAT's can't be compared correctly to each other if the Centri is using the MAF.
2/16/16, 04:51 AM
#51
Bullitt Member
2/16/16, 05:59 AM
#52
Super Boss Lawman Member
Only mod besides the supercharger is GT500 quad tips. On a Mustang dyno, it put down 494 RWHP. I've been told if I want to "chase numbers" I should put it on a dynojet - that would read 10-12% higher. Regardless, it is much quicker than stock. My dyno run was to verify the tune was safe - and it was.
2/16/16, 07:25 AM
#53
Shelby GT500 Member
Not for anything but Squidd actually designs supercharged packages for the coyote applications and I would take his word over just about anyone on here in terms of the benefits and drawbacks in terms of Roots style applications. One of his kit actually has the best intercooler you can get on the market today in terms of cooling and efficiency if I am reading and understanding his results correctly.
2/16/16, 09:04 AM
#54
Bullitt Member
Only mod besides the supercharger is GT500 quad tips. On a Mustang dyno, it put down 494 RWHP. I've been told if I want to "chase numbers" I should put it on a dynojet - that would read 10-12% higher. Regardless, it is much quicker than stock. My dyno run was to verify the tune was safe - and it was.
Just the other day I had a guy with your exact same combo, right down to how much boost it was making tell me his car made 640 to the tires. I LOL'd. Not only is that impossible from a perspective of physics, anyone with half a brain knows that just isn't going to happen. I don't think he was lying though. I think the dyno he was on really showed that.
Here is a great article about dynos that Hot Rod Magazine did. Everyone should read this:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-dyno-testing/
Here is a little bit from an article I wrote about dyno's:
Dyno Numbers:
The exhaust trick is not the only way that fuzzy math happens. Dyno numbers are a HUGE factor when it comes to fuzzy math. Numbers from dyno to dyno are notoriously inconsistent. And that is when the dyno operators aren’t trying to tweak the results. Hot Rod Magazine did a great article on dyno’s and their results a few years ago. They took the same car (GT500) to 5 different dyno’s over the period of a couple days. Guess what happened? Lots of confusion. The car “made” between 577 and 656hp. Yeah, that’s right. A 79hp swing in results with NO changes to the car. Here is a link to the article if you want to read it (you should):
How much do you trust dyno numbers now? If you still put stock in them being some sort of “test” you’re delusional. Dyno’s were not designed to be compared to one another. Yeah, you can kinda sorta compare dyno to dyno a little. But they are not calibrated to a standard like let’s say a torque wrench. A dyno is designed to test the difference in changes when making modifications, tuning, etc on the same car at the same dyno facility. They were only ever meant to compare to themselves. For example. You take your stock Mustang to a shop. They dyno it stock. They then put a blower on it, some exhaust, etc. Then they dyno it again. The result that you get is the difference those parts, tuning, etc made on YOUR car, that DAY (or couple of days). The dyno is not magically calibrated to every other dyno on the planet so they can be compared to each other. There are dyno’s like that, but they are engine dynos (not wheels dyno’s) and mostly used by the car manufacturers because they do have a standard (consistent unit of measurement) that they need to adhere to. But having a calibrated dyno is not enough. The testing procedure also needs to be standardized and adhered too. If not, the numbers mean nothing. When you see dyno numbers for XYZ car with XYZ mod don’t forget that the tool used to measure the power (the dyno) and the procedures used to do the “test” are not standardized. If there is no standard, there is no consistency.
And that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dyno’s.
Dyno numbers can be fudged. It’s very, very easy. Change a few parameters in the software and boom! More horsepower, just like magic!
The testing process can also be manipulated to show bigger gains or bigger numbers. That is child’s play. There is a massive difference between making a dyno run with the car stone cold, the hood open, huge fans blowing on it, a little more pressure in the tires, etc than driving the car in off the street, strapping it down, keeping the hood closed and running it with no cool down (you know, like every time you’re driving your car).
What you can away with on the dyno is different than what you can get away with in real life too. On the dyno everything is controlled and you have lots of sensors/data to monitor. On the street it’s far more “wild west”. You can get away with a couple more degrees of timing on the dyno. You can lean the mixture out a little more on the dyno. These are all things that will “make” more power. But you will not be driving around like that in real life. You don’t want to be that close to the edge.
Playing around with testing procedures can show 30-50hp with no problem.
The exhaust trick is not the only way that fuzzy math happens. Dyno numbers are a HUGE factor when it comes to fuzzy math. Numbers from dyno to dyno are notoriously inconsistent. And that is when the dyno operators aren’t trying to tweak the results. Hot Rod Magazine did a great article on dyno’s and their results a few years ago. They took the same car (GT500) to 5 different dyno’s over the period of a couple days. Guess what happened? Lots of confusion. The car “made” between 577 and 656hp. Yeah, that’s right. A 79hp swing in results with NO changes to the car. Here is a link to the article if you want to read it (you should):
How much do you trust dyno numbers now? If you still put stock in them being some sort of “test” you’re delusional. Dyno’s were not designed to be compared to one another. Yeah, you can kinda sorta compare dyno to dyno a little. But they are not calibrated to a standard like let’s say a torque wrench. A dyno is designed to test the difference in changes when making modifications, tuning, etc on the same car at the same dyno facility. They were only ever meant to compare to themselves. For example. You take your stock Mustang to a shop. They dyno it stock. They then put a blower on it, some exhaust, etc. Then they dyno it again. The result that you get is the difference those parts, tuning, etc made on YOUR car, that DAY (or couple of days). The dyno is not magically calibrated to every other dyno on the planet so they can be compared to each other. There are dyno’s like that, but they are engine dynos (not wheels dyno’s) and mostly used by the car manufacturers because they do have a standard (consistent unit of measurement) that they need to adhere to. But having a calibrated dyno is not enough. The testing procedure also needs to be standardized and adhered too. If not, the numbers mean nothing. When you see dyno numbers for XYZ car with XYZ mod don’t forget that the tool used to measure the power (the dyno) and the procedures used to do the “test” are not standardized. If there is no standard, there is no consistency.
And that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dyno’s.
Dyno numbers can be fudged. It’s very, very easy. Change a few parameters in the software and boom! More horsepower, just like magic!
The testing process can also be manipulated to show bigger gains or bigger numbers. That is child’s play. There is a massive difference between making a dyno run with the car stone cold, the hood open, huge fans blowing on it, a little more pressure in the tires, etc than driving the car in off the street, strapping it down, keeping the hood closed and running it with no cool down (you know, like every time you’re driving your car).
What you can away with on the dyno is different than what you can get away with in real life too. On the dyno everything is controlled and you have lots of sensors/data to monitor. On the street it’s far more “wild west”. You can get away with a couple more degrees of timing on the dyno. You can lean the mixture out a little more on the dyno. These are all things that will “make” more power. But you will not be driving around like that in real life. You don’t want to be that close to the edge.
Playing around with testing procedures can show 30-50hp with no problem.
2/16/16, 10:47 AM
#56
Super Boss Lawman Member
Don't worry about dyno numbers. They're all over the place from dyno to dyno. The hot rod community at large doesn't understand how dynos work, what they're for, their limitations, etc very well at all. That's not the fault of "the guy on the ground". A LOT of shops, the magazines and almost every manufacturer peddle dyno numbers as something they're not.
Just the other day I had a guy with your exact same combo, right down to how much boost it was making tell me his car made 640 to the tires. I LOL'd. Not only is that impossible from a perspective of physics, anyone with half a brain knows that just isn't going to happen. I don't think he was lying though. I think the dyno he was on really showed that.
Here is a great article about dynos that Hot Rod Magazine did. Everyone should read this:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-dyno-testing/
Here is a little bit from an article I wrote about dyno's:
Just the other day I had a guy with your exact same combo, right down to how much boost it was making tell me his car made 640 to the tires. I LOL'd. Not only is that impossible from a perspective of physics, anyone with half a brain knows that just isn't going to happen. I don't think he was lying though. I think the dyno he was on really showed that.
Here is a great article about dynos that Hot Rod Magazine did. Everyone should read this:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-dyno-testing/
Here is a little bit from an article I wrote about dyno's:
Yeah, my understanding is a dyno is a tool to test out the increase (or decrease) of an engine mod. And you need to make the comparison on the same dyno. Even then, other factors make it not an exact comparison.
Last edited by SpectreH; 2/16/16 at 10:53 AM.
2/25/16, 10:12 PM
#59
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I probably should have drawn a clearer distinction between roots (Eaton type) vs. screw type PD blower. All is moot anyway, just picking apart details splitting hairs.
Do a well thought out NA build/spend time driving and turning laps.
/thread, LOL
Do a well thought out NA build/spend time driving and turning laps.
/thread, LOL
2/25/16, 10:16 PM
#60
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Not for anything but Squidd actually designs supercharged packages for the coyote applications and I would take his word over just about anyone on here in terms of the benefits and drawbacks in terms of Roots style applications. One of his kit actually has the best intercooler you can get on the market today in terms of cooling and efficiency if I am reading and understanding his results correctly.
YMMV, my .02 cents etc....
edit: There is an interesting thread about this exact topic going on on another popular forum as we speak. I won't name it specifically/don't want to break forum rules/start a board war etc. I haven't posted at all in that thread and interestingly enough, almost every point I tried to make is echoed there as well. (- the hair splitting on adiabatic efficiency of one vs. the other/that kind of minutia....). Make your decision based off info from varied sources, not just one guru or expert. Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt, including this very post, for a lot of times, people have ulterior motives about things they say or the light they slant something in.
Last edited by MKMotorsport; 2/25/16 at 10:35 PM.