Then kindly explain the inclusion of the steering wheel on muscle cars, please.

So you ridicule a guy for thinking how a car turns matters because apparently muscle cars aren't supposed to do turn well, if at all (or at least we're not supposed to care how they turn according to you), then you try to make the case that fuel mileage IS how you judge a muscle car?!? Wow.

No one is dismissing any heritage; the new muscle cars can turn, far better than the originators of the genre. Does that mean they're not muscle cars anymore?

 

Yeah the Mustang Pony Car was only good in a straight line drag race like other muscle cars. It couldn't possibly be raced on a road course that has corners.

 

When groups compare cars they judge the current version. They reminisce about the goo ol days when the smell of gas filled the air and carb'd motors ran amuck. But now they test handling, refinement, quality of materials, power distribution, weight, visibility, etc. the things that matter in the ever changing automotive world. Muscle cars dont have to be chained to the pure power reputation. They can take turns. Just as long as they have a rip snorting tore shredding v8 powertrain then its classified as a muscle car

 

I don't think we should even bother, guys!

 

What's funny is that everyone actually expected the 13' Shelby to perform on a road course. For one thing, it's only gonna do what the stock tires let it do. Serious road racers are not gonna buy this car for a track car. An extra 100 horses in the boss should take care of just about anything. This car was built for horsepower junkies who could afford it. No doubt with a little tweaking, the Shelby could be a track monster but you're not gonna see many doing it.

 

I agree with you overall. While a lot of engineering and effort was put into the GT500 to make it handle well, it isn't as important as how well it performs at the 1/4.

Putting equal (or more) or more weight on handling characterstics opposed to 1/4 mile performance is just plain ignorant (on the magazines part). While some use these cars for a lot of road racing, most rarely if ever go to road course. So why put so much emphasis on handling?

The second part of the comparison should have carried more weight than the first part. That's what most in this demographic care about. I mean it is like putting equal weight between fuel economy and 1/4 miles times. While fuel economy matters, it certainly doesn't matter more than how well it does at the drag strip.

 

 

True. But that Ford is taking it to "the Ring" for tweaking shows they have at least some interest in it holding the road right? They don't need the Ring to show it does 200mph.

 

I would have to call that a really weak attempt at showing up the competition. I'm sure they picked a nice cool day to compensate for heat soak also. The GT500 is what it has always been. Horsepower leader but not performance leader. Its just a budget bad *** ride. Like a 60yr old guy in a Ferrari. He's not gonna push that thing anyways.

 

Try to grasp this idea: Pony cars or muscle cars whichever you prefer to call them built their following and continue to create interest because they accelerate quickly. Yes, they have to turn, but it is not their turning that has made them popular; rather, it is their speed off the line and in traffic that has made them what they are, and because the ZL1 is so outclassed by the GT500 in these respects, the current tactic to prop up the ZL1 is to use handling (done under very restricted conditions) to declare the ZL1 superior. What it reminds me of is a friend who, upon being beaten in a fair competition suddenly remade the rules to the game. Furthermore, for those GT500 owners who wish to maximize handling, a Griggs suspension is certainly a smaller investment that what the ZL1 owner would have to make to bring his car up to the power levels of the GT500. And, just for good measure, read this about the 2013 from another site:
"This car is awesome!!

2.29.339 on street tires and stock brake pads and lines. All I did was change the fluid to Brembo LCF 600, resonator delete and a tune from Jon Lund. If anybody wants to know, Catalytic Converter Temperature Protection is Active.

Went to post Time Trial Compound and got put on the scales.

Less than a quarter tank of fuel (42 miles to empty) race weight with driver....3,993 lbs and I weigh 180.

Comparison Data:
Running with a couple of Corvette buddies of mine both on Hoosiers with Pfadt Coilovers. Z06 built motor, (race car) 2.24.874 / ZR1 with tune and Coilovers 2.27.226

I'm running the factory tires!!!!! 20's out back and 19's up front!!!

All things considered I am extremely impressed with the performance of this car.

I am blown away. I was hoping for a 2.35 as a possible best.

For comparo purposes my previous personal best in my 2007 with an iron block was 2.26 with a Griggs ST chassis and Hoosier R6's. I have not been back to Sebring as of yet with my Griggs TT Chassis and aluminum built motor and KB 3.6.

All laps have been recorded. Will try and post video in the next couple days.

Van

I can only imagine what would be possible with some R compound tires."

 

Truth be told they can't show that it does 200 mph at the Nurburgring. It was the Nardoring in Italy (think a giant banked 5 mile circle) where 200 mph was shown. The 14 mile Northloop of the Nurburgring was run at 7:41.27 by a pre-production 2012 Camaro ZL1 last November. I'm curious to see what the 2013 Shelby GT500 is capable of there. IMHO the Shelby is geared too high for being an effective road racer. This is the price that Ford was willing to pay in order to get a 200 mph Mustang. As for me, I'll stick with my Boss 302, it is the perfect road racer Mustang.

 

Dad gummit

 

A couple of salesmen at Andy Mohr Ford in Plainfield, IN, were telling me today that they've sold two GT500 2013's already and one of the new owners returned it immediately because he was cruising in 2nd gear 55mph and said it was too much car for him.

 

 

1: I'm not the one who has declared that this GT500 was designed and built to perform on the road courses. That would be Jamal Hameedi. He disagrees with you; I just happen to agree with him, especially after all the reviews that have pointed out the '13 Shelby's road manners.

2: You lost me when you claimed fuel economy was at least as--if not more--important in evaluating a muscle car.

 

You actually read all that?

 

Lol...of course not.

 

What? .....

 

Inside Line's comparo test I think basically reflects Automobile's in that the GT500 might be a better numbers generator, but the ZL/1 is a better driver.

Then there is the semantic/philosophical discussion of whether these cars are "Muscle Cars," where dynamic prowess is almost considered anathema, or "Pony Cars," that are more than one-dimensional brutes to be driven only by furry Neanderthals.

Yes, straight line prowess is VERY important to these cars, but these are street cars, not dedicated strip sprinters, where lumps, bumps, turns and stopsigns exist, often all at the same time. Thus a car's dynamic capabilities are at least as important as hero test numbers in actually driving and utilizing a cars performance capabilities.

To be sure, both cars ARE extremely capable and competent in the grand scheme of things and are among the apex predators of any road their on. Kudos to Chevy for what they've achieved with their newer Camaro as the ZL/1 is a thoroughly engineered and executed performance upgrade. Kudos too the the Blue Oval Boys (and girls?) for what they've rendered with an older, less sophisticated chassis to work with.

Ford's relentless drive towards overall product excellence of the past couple years has me hugely impressed, especially given their "good enough" ethos of product mediocrity that preceeded and that hobbled the Stang with some neolithic elements. As impressive as the current Stang's are, this skyward arc of product improvement bodes for some serious performance excellence come the 2015 Mustang.

 

While few may put their GT500 or ZL/1 on a road course, few will put them on a drag strip either. Where the vast majority of these cars will be driven are on real world roads full of turns, lumps, bumps and stops -- often all at the same time. It's more so in the real world where excellent handling and stopping dynamics are what make the hero HP numbers even remotely useful or relavent.

I think it is entirely fair and appropriate to assess all aspects of a performance car's capabilities with equal weighting as for street/road cars, all aspects of a car's performance are brought into play, quite often their dynamic capabilities more so than their 10/10ths straight line performance capabilities. Thus, that the Camaro is judged, on balance, as the car with the better fleshed out overall performance envelope is, I think, a very appropriate assessment and judgement.