Five Oh B ... I remember you WAY back from the BON days with Transman and the like.... (if your the same person)

I can understand both sides.
You're not the guy pocketing the money nor the guy selling and just stating what goes on at said dealership
George is against ADMs... or the enemy
You work for the enemy....


I'm just wondering what some of the dealerships that are sitting on these cars are going to do when they are 4 years old and not selling (because people are going to stealerships that sell for MSRP or lower) and the new version is out.

 

I respect both George's and Brian's opinions, and they are both well-spoken and present their case very well. I can further appreicate Brian wanting to be on this board as an enthusiast, and appreciate the information and insight he brings to this board. So can we call a truce, agree to disagree, and move on to other, more productive pursuits?

 

__________________________________________________ ________

+1 agree, Brian has always been on the consumer/owners side and does not make the policy.


Can we move on?

 

Hi, Boomer, yes, I posted for several years at BON starting with my pursuit of buying a 2000 Cobra (which never was produced, due to the 1999 Cobra fiasco). That's when I bought a 2000 Mustang GT instead. I found myself in the same boat last year when I could not find a deal on a GT500, so I bought a 2007 Mustang GT instead.

Your analogy is good about me being "guilty by association" in George's eyes. That's OK, I understand how a rational person may feel that way about anyone who works at a car dealership (or stealership, as many customers call them). I do not begrudge George one bit and understand his frustration about pricing. I don't feel that his frustration warrants lashing out at me, but that's OK.

 

JonW and AwakeinAZ, I agree; time to move on.

Now, worth asking. A very good friend and neighbor of mine, who I've known for 35 years, has a 2007 GT500 coupe with 600 miles on it that he's looking to sell. What's this car worth to the average enthusiast, in anyone's opinion? JonW, you mentioned you got MSRP for your 98 mile GT500 vert, so do you think my friend could get something close to MSRP for his 600 mile example?

I have considered buying it from him, but it is the wrong color for me (torch red, white stripes), and my wife and I are simple working folks on a budget and we'd have to sell my 07 GT, which is probably worth less than I owe.

 

You've done nothing wrong. You're just providing info and he wants to shoot the messenger. He goes off on anyone that upsets his terribly black and white (and self important) view of the world. Heck, he called me an idiot for saying I like the new Bullitt
Add 1 BULLITT to your ignore list....

 

Here's the scenario on my car. One of the local dealers has a twin to my car, except it's new, and they have a $20K ADM on it. The wholesaler who bought my car from me for MSRP turned around and sold it to a local used car dealer, who intends to drive it for a while. My friend sold the Shelby to the dealer for what he paid me for it, no markup. So he didn't pocket any money on the deal. The used car dealer owns it for MSRP. Also, my car was an '08 model, not an '07. If he doesn't put any miles on it, he could probably drive it for a few months and still make a few grand on it. If he made $5K, that's $15K cheaper than a new one, assuming they get their ADM on the new one.

To answer your question: a definite maybe You've already mentioned that new Shelbys in your neck of the woods are bringing over MSRP by several thousand dollars. So a used Shelby would be worth more there than in an area where you could buy a new one for MSRP. I imagine you could find a new '07 on eBay for MSRP.

But, if I was in your area, and had the chance to pick up a 600-mile perfect example for MSRP, I might go for it. The benefits would be that I could see and inspect the car, it would be a more personal experience since you know the neighbor, I wouldn't have to worry about sending close to $50K to someone I never met, and I wouldn't have to worry about the expense and possible damage in shipping. In this case, I would probably buy your neighbor's car and drive it home.

 

If your area is as strong as you say, I would think somebody would jump on it at MSRP. Maybe even your dealership, if they can still get a 4 or 5k markup for it.

Around many parts of the country, the ADMs are either gone or very near it. I, personally, would not pay even the MSRP for a year old 600 mile car. As the rest of the country loses the ADMs, you would end up upside down on the car. If you wait until Summer, you could have a new one for the same price, a full warranty and not take the chance of having the dreaded '07 clutch/tranny problem. Right now would be the time to sell it before the ADMs crash fully. As the original message of this thread states, even MOGFIS is now advertising for MSRP. And they were the leaders in ADMs last year. Even they know they are dead.

 

No, but I've watched a Law & Order marathon.

 

That would not be enough for such an ethical dealer considering that is the ballpark amount which a new ones bring. Deduct the additional $8K ADM they expect and charge their loyal clentale and it just might be perceived as establishing a downward pattern. Heaven forbid!

 

The dealership I work for takes trade-in's, but doesn't buy cars "off the street" so they wouldn't consider buying it. They didn't even try to buy new GT500's from other dealers last year when we had 100+ people on our GT500 list. However, there was another Northwest dealer that bought up a couple dozen new 07 GT500's last year from other dealers and PowerLease Certificate Holders for way over MSRP, then turn around and sell most of them in the $70K to $75K range.

Our area is a very strong market - not just for cars, but our economy in general is booming. Real estate price increases around here have outpaced the national average making housing as unaffordable as GT500's with ADM's. It's silly expensive to live around here, but I was born and raised here and can't think of anywhere else I'd rather live.

 

Well, I do have to pass on buying his GT500 as I am currently in no financial position to spend that kind of money. His car had an original MSRP of about $43K (early car, few options). Here's the kicker, he knows a dealer in the midwest who owed him a favor, so he bought the car brand new in the fall of 2006 for $40K - several thousand below MSRP - when all the dealers around here were getting $25K over MSRP (we were the "good guys" relatively speaking at "just" $10K over MSRP way back then).

There's a good chance that he's going to trade his GT500 for a classic Shelby that needs to be restored. He's working on this possibility, as well, as he's always wanted a first generation Shelby Mustang.

 

That is not my style. Besides, I didn't have to.

 

I wonder how many GT500s would have been built and sold if there were no ADMs and they only sold at MSRP ?
Would Ford and Dealers benefit?

Supply and demand is always used as the reasoning/argument for applying ADMs. Certainly some GT500s with an ADM sell almost instantly which supports the idea of 'demand', however seems there are a lot of them that sit around for a very long time with an ADM still applied. That isn't 'demand'.

 

The are quite a few examples of members who chose alternatives such as Roush, Corvettes, Caymans, and other models due to being unable to get the GT500. Dealers could have ordered them fully optioned, added some Ford accessories, sold other services, and done the financing while sticking to a MSRP price and done very well on each sale. Add the factor of not losing many longtime time customers forever and everyone wins whether it'd be short or long term.

Even with its few shortcomings, the GT500 is the best production Mustang to date. Certainly there would be more than 10,000 people interested in getting one.

 

I could understand a small ADM for the first few cars. My problem is that the regional reps hyped up the dealers and they turned that to the customers. They led customers to believe these cars were Super rare and they would not be able to lay their hand on them without coughing up big dough. Well, those people went to other cars and won't be buying GT500s (big Doh!)

I bought mine at MSRP. The dealer I bought it from sold all of theirs as such. I live 2 hours away from. I go to them for all my service, parts and will go for future vehicle purchases. At the time of the sale I bought an extended warranty. I never buy those, but, since they were kind enough to sell me mine at that price, I rewarded them with a big profit extra.

I know several people that went to other cars because of this. I really think Dealers burned a lot of bridges with this practice. I know I won't be going back to my local dealer that I have been buying from for 14 years. They shunned my MSRP deal with future business and referrals for somebody out of state with a 10g markup that they will never see again. Their choice, I guess.

I have always believed that the most important aspect of a sale is the return business. They might make very little money on that Focus, but, the service and future sales (esp used cars) will keep the money rolling in. They wonder why they struggle.

I am sure in cases like Brian's that there are a bunch of wealthy customers happy to part with their extra 5-30 grand to get the cars. What they prob don't see are the customers they turned away that have vowed not to come back for anything else. It may not make a noticeable dent in their sales, but, losing lifetime customers will hurt them over time.

 

Then you would have the situation that exists in the Ferrari Market. US dealers aren't really allowed to sell above MSRP. So you end up with "flippers". Ferrari doesn't like flippers, so they penalize dealers who sell cars to flippers. Dealers then sell new cars to long time customers who aren't likely to flip. So, if the dealer doesn't know you, you don't have much of a chance of getting a new Ferrari. All of this makes the secondary market with HUGE premiums over MSRP. Some dealers have been accused of selling to folks they know who will resell the car through the dealer, so both parties end up with a tidy profit. Rumors are Ferrari will require new car buyers to allow Ferrari to be a lien holder, which would make it impossible to sell the car, because guess who won't release the lien... It's a big mess. Been the subject of several magazine articles in the last year.

Want to learn more? Go over to ferrarichat and start a thread "how can I buy a new Ferrari?".

 

If a Ford dealer wants to slap an ADM on a GT500, that's his business. Then I, as a consumer, have the choice to buy from him or not. As noted, many chose the "not" route. In a conversation I had yesterday with one of my local dealers, he said he has sold over half of his GT500s to CA residents. With a nice ADM, I might add. So those of us locals that wanted to buy one are SOL. At least he was kind enough to allow mine to be drop-shipped to him.

But in my 6 months of trying to find a GT500 at MSRP, what burned me even more than the ADMs was the ignorance and arrogance of the sales staff. If you as a dealer want to ADM the car, fine, that's your business. But don't treat me like an idiot when I inquire about buying one, don't tell me things that aren't true, and don't be condescending. That seemed to be a consistent theme no matter where I inquired. Except at the dealers that were willing to sell for MSRP. Then I was treated with some degree of respect.

Ford Motor Company has a serious problem with their dealers and the dealers' sales staffs. I've experienced it, many of you on this board have also experienced it. It's been well documented in trade journals such as Automotive News. The guy I bought my Mustang GT from was an idiot, and he had 16 years tenure at that dealer. I'm not saying all Ford stores or all Ford salesmen are bad, but it seems to be a problem nationwide that Ford needs to address.

 

It's not a problem getting one in to Miami. There are probably more drug trafficers... I mean, Ferraris,
than GT500s and other high end Mustangs combined.

One unrelated note: The Ferraris sure look great in bumper to bumper traffic.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to make that comparison and say that would happen to a Ford product, even ones like the Ford GT, GT500.