What's the BFD with IRS?
#81
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Last time I checked, Ford did build the vehicles consumers wanted, and they were the SUVs and F-Series trucks that EVERYONE wanted and purchased/leased! Its not their fault the gas did what it did. No one was prepared for that (even Toyota was caught off-guard by the gas with their Tundras). I'm not gonna get into this argument again, as it was already hashed out in another thread.
#82
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Dodge does NOT have any pushrod V8's in a sports car. Their sports car (Viper) is a V10, and their V8 Hemi's aren't offered in a sports car. So, that makes you "technically wrong."
#83
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My '03 Mach 1 (SN95) and '07 GT have both seen a lot of drag strip duty, neither has ever hopped, both cars have 100% factory suspension, and both ran drag radials at the track. The '07 GT runs mid 12's at 110 mph in the 1/4 mile and doesn't hop. I have driven quite a few 03/04 Cobras and my best friend's 04 Pontiac GTO, and all of them hop when you try to launch hard. My last IRS-equipped car (a '93 Thunderbird 5.0L LX) didn't make enough power to hop, even with 4.10 gears & traction-lok axle, but I suspect that with enough power it would have.
#84
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My '03 Mach 1 (SN95) and '07 GT have both seen a lot of drag strip duty, neither has ever hopped, both cars have 100% factory suspension, and both ran drag radials at the track. The '07 GT runs mid 12's at 110 mph in the 1/4 mile and doesn't hop. I have driven quite a few 03/04 Cobras and my best friend's 04 Pontiac GTO, and all of them hop when you try to launch hard. My last IRS-equipped car (a '93 Thunderbird 5.0L LX) didn't make enough power to hop, even with 4.10 gears & traction-lok axle, but I suspect that with enough power it would have.
#85
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In any event, the lack of talent combined with only a modest increase in perfomance allows a car like the Mustang exist because its SRA is transparent in performance.
Respective enthusiasts aside, for the most part, the only reason people know an IRS is better is because they are told so in much the same way people are told OHC multivalve engines are better than thier pushrod counterparts (and I'll go as far as saying that the above poster's comment about IRS being marketing buzz not totally out of place).
#86
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Respective enthusiasts aside, for the most part, the only reason people know an IRS is better is because they are told so in much the same way people are told OHC multivalve engines are better than thier pushrod counterparts (and I'll go as far as saying that the above poster's comment about IRS being marketing buzz not totally out of place).
Where I notice the SRA is going over bumps and potholes. When you elect to go with stiffer springs and shock rates, IRS become that much more important to compensate for bad roads. My Mustang GT gets jumpy on bad pavement, and the shock effect is transmitted through the chassis and into the cabin...and on up my spine. The effect is definitely jarring. My mid-'80s Japanese small car had a suspension just as tight, but with a full IRS - it didn't transmit the bumps into the cabin nearly as prominently.
Now, it's certainly not a deal breaker, but there are moments when I hit a bad piece of pavement that the car doesn't feel NEARLY as controlled as if I had been in my IRS equipped car.
#87
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And that my friend is poor planning on Ford's part. Ford hedged their future on trucks/SUV's. Instead of building good cars, they poored all their resources into trucks and SUV's. If you notice, Toyota and Honda invested in cars & sedans. They are better prepared to face the future. Ford has noticed this and is scrambling and playing catchup in NA to build smaller cars and sedans.
![Dunno](https://themustangsource.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
That said, no one anticipated the gas going up like it did. Should they have had small cars on the board, sure, but again, no one saw this coming.
Last edited by 05fordgt; 10/8/08 at 07:16 AM.
#88
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This thread just proves my point. You fan boys would buy ANYTHING that ford slapped the horse on. It could be a 5 door hatchback hybrid, with a steam engine, leaf springs, and a wooden dash, and you'd all line up to buy them sight unseen. It's sad really. Buying an inferior product just because its cheaper. I'm a Ford guy, and i CAN NOT WAIT till the Camaro blows the doors off the 2010 Mustang in the next round of comparos so that Ford will finally wake up.
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This thread just proves my point. You fan boys would buy ANYTHING that ford slapped the horse on. It could be a 5 door hatchback hybrid, with a steam engine, leaf springs, and a wooden dash, and you'd all line up to buy them sight unseen. It's sad really. Buying an inferior product just because its cheaper. I'm a Ford guy, and i CAN NOT WAIT till the Camaro blows the doors off the 2010 Mustang in the next round of comparos so that Ford will finally wake up.
![Dunno](https://themustangsource.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
#90
Exactly. Raw performance numbers don't really mean much in the real world of daily drivers. Driveability is the real bottom line (along with pricing), and despite the Mustang getting trounced on paper, it outsold the F-bodies because it was a much more drivable car.
Whether that holds true in the next round or not remains to be seen. Ford has a great start with the S197 platform, but by all accounts the Camaro/G8 platform is also quite good. Pricing/marketing may be the determining factor, and the Mustang should retain the bang-for-buck crown...
Whether that holds true in the next round or not remains to be seen. Ford has a great start with the S197 platform, but by all accounts the Camaro/G8 platform is also quite good. Pricing/marketing may be the determining factor, and the Mustang should retain the bang-for-buck crown...
#91
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Exactly. Raw performance numbers don't really mean much in the real world of daily drivers. Driveability is the real bottom line (along with pricing), and despite the Mustang getting trounced on paper, it outsold the F-bodies because it was a much more drivable car.
Whether that holds true in the next round or not remains to be seen. Ford has a great start with the S197 platform, but by all accounts the Camaro/G8 platform is also quite good. Pricing/marketing may be the determining factor, and the Mustang should retain the bang-for-buck crown...
Whether that holds true in the next round or not remains to be seen. Ford has a great start with the S197 platform, but by all accounts the Camaro/G8 platform is also quite good. Pricing/marketing may be the determining factor, and the Mustang should retain the bang-for-buck crown...
But the casual buyer isn't going to change his mind because IRS is added. However more enthusiast buyers might get on board. Whatever, if Ford can sell units to cheap folks who don't mind driving an inferior car, thats fine. That just isn't a group I'm interested in being in.
#92
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So its there fault that everyone and their brother were buying F150s up like wildfire? They built the vehicles that everyone wanted AT THE TIME!! If they stopped building them, and people still wanted them, they would have been slammed for NOT building what everyone wanted. Its a 2-way street. Manufacturer AND consumer were BOTH to blame!! Ford built them and a whole bunch of people wanted them!
That said, no one anticipated the gas going up like it did. Should they have had small cars on the board, sure, but again, no one saw this coming.
That said, no one anticipated the gas going up like it did. Should they have had small cars on the board, sure, but again, no one saw this coming.
Consumers also wanted good cars too, but Ford didn’t produce one. Look at the sales of the Civic, Corolla, Accord, Camry, etc. Back in the 80’s, Ford was VERY strong in the car market. In the 90’s, Ford started to build ****ty cars and the American consumer shifted to foreign competitors. Ford literally invested everything in SUVs/Trucks. Well with that strategy, they gambled and forgot the golden rule of “don’t put all your eggs in one basket”. Ford has no one to blame, but themselves.
No one saw this coming? Come on that’s just being oblivious. This has been coming for years. It’s the typical American way to only react when the **** hits the fan. The same goes for the crisis we are in right now financially. We saw it coming, but didn’t do a thing.
#93
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Respective enthusiasts aside, for the most part, the only reason people know an IRS is better is because they are told so in much the same way people are told OHC multivalve engines are better than thier pushrod counterparts (and I'll go as far as saying that the above poster's comment about IRS being marketing buzz not totally out of place).
You SRA guys are a funny bunch. Why are people so against Ford building a truely modern car that competes globally? I think it would be awesome for a GT500 to be compared to a M3 or Corvette. That's never going to happen with the current SRA rear.
#94
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Consumers also wanted good cars too, but Ford didn’t produce one. Look at the sales of the Civic, Corolla, Accord, Camry, etc. Back in the 80’s, Ford was VERY strong in the car market. In the 90’s, Ford started to build ****ty cars and the American consumer shifted to foreign competitors. Ford literally invested everything in SUVs/Trucks. Well with that strategy, they gambled and forgot the golden rule of “don’t put all your eggs in one basket”. Ford has no one to blame, but themselves.
No one saw this coming? Come on that’s just being oblivious. This has been coming for years. It’s the typical American way to only react when the **** hits the fan. The same goes for the crisis we are in right now financially. We saw it coming, but didn’t do a thing.
No one saw this coming? Come on that’s just being oblivious. This has been coming for years. It’s the typical American way to only react when the **** hits the fan. The same goes for the crisis we are in right now financially. We saw it coming, but didn’t do a thing.
Now about the gas? You said "we saw it coming". If we did, we didn't do anything to get ready for it. Its not the automakers problems that people bought the vehicles that got crummy gas mileage. The mileage was on the labels, but they bought them anyway, not even thinking gas was going to do what it did. They bought them and now with gas going up the way it did, people want out of them. Unless you had a crystal ball, no one saw gas going up over $2 within a few day's span, cause I sure didn't. And don't even get me started on the "financial" aspect. Bankers who make $10s of millions get the bailouts, while you and me are left holding the stick. The CEOs were the ones to blame!! BS, I say!
#95
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Ford put everything in "one basket" as trucks and SUVs were what was selling so well. Your being naive! Ford made the vehicles that people wanted. SUVs were going through the roof, and everyone wanted one. Hell, even Porsche came out with one, and it sold VERY well! If they stopped building them, during the SUV/Pickup hayday, customers would have gone elsewhere to get them, and thats the honest truth. They offered what people wanted AT THE TIME!!
How about the gas? You said "we saw it coming". If we did, we didn't do anything to get ready for it. Its not the automakers problems that people bought the vehicles that got crummy gas mileage. The mileage was on the labels, but they bought them anyway, not even thinking gas was going to do what it did. They bought them and now with gas going up the way it did, people want out of them. Unless you had a crystal ball, no one saw gas going up over $2 within a few day's span, cause I sure didn't. And don't even get me started on the "financial" aspect. Bankers who make $10s of millions get the bailouts, while you and me are left holding the stick. The CEOs were the ones to blame!! BS, I say!
#98
Market share has been dropping, but Ford has tanked (along with GM and Chrysler). Read the recent results for Ford sales. They are in big trouble.
Leaf springs work just like a SRA rear. I bet 99% of the public couldn’t tell the difference. I am just playing devils advocate. The fact of the matter is if Ford wants to build a competitive vehicle, IRS will need to be added in the near future.
Leaf springs work just like a SRA rear. I bet 99% of the public couldn’t tell the difference. I am just playing devils advocate. The fact of the matter is if Ford wants to build a competitive vehicle, IRS will need to be added in the near future.
Ford doesn't need IRS to build a competitive vehicle. Ford already build vehicles with IRS.
Watch the discussions when Ford puts only IRS in a Mustang.
Playing Devils advocate is weak. Take a stand and believe in it.
#99
Ford put everything in "one basket" as trucks and SUVs were what was selling so well. Your being naive! Ford made the vehicles that people wanted. SUVs were going through the roof, and everyone wanted one. Hell, even Porsche came out with one, and it sold VERY well! If they stopped building them, during the SUV/Pickup hayday, customers would have gone elsewhere to get them, and thats the honest truth. They offered what people wanted AT THE TIME!!
Now about the gas? You said "we saw it coming". If we did, we didn't do anything to get ready for it. Its not the automakers problems that people bought the vehicles that got crummy gas mileage. The mileage was on the labels, but they bought them anyway, not even thinking gas was going to do what it did. They bought them and now with gas going up the way it did, people want out of them. Unless you had a crystal ball, no one saw gas going up over $2 within a few day's span, cause I sure didn't. And don't even get me started on the "financial" aspect. Bankers who make $10s of millions get the bailouts, while you and me are left holding the stick. The CEOs were the ones to blame!! BS, I say!
Now about the gas? You said "we saw it coming". If we did, we didn't do anything to get ready for it. Its not the automakers problems that people bought the vehicles that got crummy gas mileage. The mileage was on the labels, but they bought them anyway, not even thinking gas was going to do what it did. They bought them and now with gas going up the way it did, people want out of them. Unless you had a crystal ball, no one saw gas going up over $2 within a few day's span, cause I sure didn't. And don't even get me started on the "financial" aspect. Bankers who make $10s of millions get the bailouts, while you and me are left holding the stick. The CEOs were the ones to blame!! BS, I say!
Buyers are fickle. Watch what happens to V8 and truck sales when gas prices go down, or people become normalised to higher prices.
People will gravitate to what they really want.
#100
Ford put everything in "one basket" as trucks and SUVs were what was selling so well. Your being naive! Ford made the vehicles that people wanted. SUVs were going through the roof, and everyone wanted one. Hell, even Porsche came out with one, and it sold VERY well! If they stopped building them, during the SUV/Pickup hayday, customers would have gone elsewhere to get them, and thats the honest truth. They offered what people wanted AT THE TIME!!
Ford made the vehicles that people wanted.
You are right that FMC put everything in "one basket." Ford was greedy because they made lots of money from their Trucks/SUVs sales. Can't fault them for trying to make a buck . . . BUT they neglected the car market that a few years prior they owned! Now maybe if 'Uncle Jack' hadn't bought everything in sight, FMC might of had more cash to funnel towards maintaining their hold in the car segments. Unfortunately, they did not and we all know what happened next . . .
As an example, late 80's . .
Ford Division: No. 1 division in U.S. in combined car and truck sales
Escort: No. 1 subcompact
Taurus: No. 1 mid-size
Thunderbird: No. 1 mid-specialty
Mustang: No. 1 small sports car
F-Series pickup: No. 1 pickup; best selling of all vehicles in the U.S.
Aerostar: No. 1 mini-van nameplate
Ranger: No. 1 compant pickup, import or domestic
Econoline: No. 1 full size van
Car Sales up 2%
Truck sales up 9%
Share of market: cars, up 2.6% to 20.6%
Share of market: trucks, up 1.2% to 29.5%
Earnings: $1.5 billion
Escort: No. 1 subcompact
Taurus: No. 1 mid-size
Thunderbird: No. 1 mid-specialty
Mustang: No. 1 small sports car
F-Series pickup: No. 1 pickup; best selling of all vehicles in the U.S.
Aerostar: No. 1 mini-van nameplate
Ranger: No. 1 compant pickup, import or domestic
Econoline: No. 1 full size van
Car Sales up 2%
Truck sales up 9%
Share of market: cars, up 2.6% to 20.6%
Share of market: trucks, up 1.2% to 29.5%
Earnings: $1.5 billion
Last edited by Evil_Capri; 10/8/08 at 11:52 AM.