instigator311

What I mean BC Shelby is that who cares if foreign countries don't like or buy it, it's an American Muscle car. There's no reason we should change the elements of an American muscle car to suffice some Europeans. Cheap parts are part of what make it affordable, cheap and affordable kind of go hand in hand. My boss has a new Lexus, and the interior is definately not anything special. People give import cars way too much credit. And concerning the whole Mustang price point thing, a lot of import V6's start at around the same as the Mustang GT, example, Honda Accord Coupe V6 starts at $25,200, and the Mustang GT $25,835, not a big enough difference. I'd rather have a V8 engine and a 3/4 job interior over a V6 with some boring fit and finish, but that's just me. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(instigator311 @ February 24, 2006, 7:27 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
My boss has a new Lexus, and the interior is definately not anything special.
[/b][/quote]
So what I hear you telling me is that you're either lying...or legally blind. Because if you don't see a profound difference between the Lexus interior and the Mustang interior - even with just a cursory inspection - then it has to be one or the other. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img]

Don't get me wrong, I love the Stang (and moreso the Shelby), but it has a lot of rough edges. Then again, I suspect a lot of loyal Stang owners actually LIKE rough edges, and perhaps you fall into that category. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

hiznherponies

No, he's not lying or blind, just that some of us don't really care if the interior is all that "perfect" or not, some of us actually have 1st-gen 'stangs still in our garage so we can compare the old with the new (my garage has an '84 and a '66) so maybe us loyal 'stang owners are blind, to our beloved pony's shortcoming because we see with our hearts, and just like in the football movie "Rudy", love to root for the underdog!!! Just like someone else said, the original car was based on the falcon, that was already getting old, and was very,very cheap. I know first hand, I'm trying to rebuild the suspension on mine!!! The foxes, of course, were also built on a cheap platform, so why should the new car be a "WORLD-CLASS CAR" like Mr. Frost wants it to be? I didn't agree with the person who jumped on Mr. Granetelli in another post, but you guys, Jack Frost and BC Shelby, should either keep you negative comments about Ford and the Mustang to yourselves, or just LEAVE!!!!

GT98

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BC_Shelby @ February 24, 2006, 11:42 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
So what I hear you telling me is that you're either lying...or legally blind. Because if you don't see a profound difference between the Lexus interior and the Mustang interior - even with just a cursory inspection - then it has to be one or the other. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]


I have to agree that he's right. I've been in the following:

2004 Camry
2001 Civic
2003 G35 Coupe
2004 Acura TL

Out of those 4 cars I'd say that the TL prob has the nicest looking interior, though I'm not too keen on the camel color. The G35 has a horrible looking dash with its silver painted parts, but the materials aren't nothing special, except maybe the leather on the seats (haven't gotten my 06 GT to compair with). Both the Camry and Civic where both very disapointing...they didnt look ANY different then Ford interior I've been in lately, and I'd say my SVT Focus interior was nicer materials wise vs the Civic I was in.

I saw a Fusion in the flesh Thursday night...someone I know got an SE, and it looked pretty good, though I'm not sure on the doors...it was the sand color interior and the door panels looked cheap or tupperware type plastic. I think it was due to the color, not the materials since I perfer either black or grey interiors.

06VistaGT

My $0.02 (more like $2):

The car (talking about GT only) has a 300 hp 4.6. I have not seen any complaints about this on this thread. So, let's use that as the baseline. Now, does Ford make a fairly inexpensive car built around that engine? Or do they build a "world-class" car in which to put the engine? Obviously, there have been a lot of posts suggesting one or the other, but you have to look at Ford's, and more importantly, the Mustang's roots. The car began as an affordable "sporty" two-door 4/5 passenger coupe with a little V8. The equation that was born was one of affordable power in an attractive package. Throughout the 1960s/early 1970s, and again since the mid-1980s, this has been the general formula. There are obvious sacrifices to make this possible, and this has been the case since the car's inception. As far as I can see, the S-197 follows the same mold.

Now, I have no problem with people wanting more from Ford in terms of a performance vehicle with less or none of the cost-saving shortcuts incorporated into the new car (sold axle, interior, etc.). If there is a sufficient market for such a vehicle, Ford should make one, but NOT the Mustang. The formula has already been set. For a more extreme example, hybrid vehicles are becoming more and more popular. I think the market for these vehicles is growing, while the high performance sports car market is at best holding steady. But I highly doubt GM or Chrysler are going to make the "all-new" hybrid Vette or Viper. The Mustang has its formula. Anyone wanting more should be suggesting Ford initiate a new make that includes the Mustang power with the upgrades they desire, not bashing the Mustang for being something it has never been intended to be.

A few other random notes:
I believe the Mustang will continue with decent sales in the future. The '06 is my first owned car, and I can tell you that the car is extremely popular among the college student/recent graduate demographic. I definitely see strong sales among this group for years to come. The price is perfect for a first-real-job type and the power is very attractive to a young audience. At the same time, the "cool" factor is definitely more important than heated seats or cheap plastic. After all, even this interior is a huge upgrade over the beater you've been driving since you got your license!

At the end of the day, anyone complaining about the Mustang's shortcomings shouldn't have bought one. You want something different, go get that. If the issue is with Ford, then start a discussion about a possible new car make for the blue oval. As stated, Ford is struggling financially. In my opinion, going away from the tried and true formula that has worked for over 40+ years on the Mustang would have been a huge risk, with little potential reward.

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hiznherponies @ February 24, 2006, 9:13 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
...but you guys, Jack Frost and BC Shelby, should either keep you negative comments about Ford and the Mustang to yourselves, or just LEAVE!!!!
[/b][/quote]
If Ford can't take a little constructive criticism, THEY'LL be the ones ultimately leaving: leaving the automobile manufacturing business. Or perhaps you haven't noticed that Ford is in SERIOUS FINANCIAL PERIL. In fact, Ford was recently listed near the bottom of one recent customer desireability study.

Facts are facts. Whether you happen to like them or not really doesn't interest me. But ignorance is a poor substitute for intelligence.

instigator311

Like I said before, most car companies use cheap parts for their interiors, it's just how most cars are made these days, because it is the most economical and efficient way for the company and the buyers. Import cars are overrated and over priced.

And BC Shelby, YOU need to do some research, beacause Ford is definately still profitable, you're getting confused with GM, I know that for a fact. Sure, they aren't huge record breaking sales like your precious Toyota, but it's still profit isn't it? They're trying to turn things around, and it can't be done over night after all the trouble they've gotten themselves into, it's just gonna take some baby steps. And Ford has had plenty of "constructive criticism", and Ford has definately listened, it's about time people take a break from criticizing and try their products, without the import bias. BC Shelby, YOU also need to find some more viable sources. Trash talk, speculation, and desireability studies aren't viable sources. I've done my reasearch, it's time for YOU to do yours. Facts are facts, so stop substituting your own ignorance for intelligence, and leave the Mustang and it's loyal followers alone. The Mustang is an Icon for what it is, not for what some idiots want it to be.

pvillepiper

This has turned into a rather interesting discussion, a bit off from what I started, but for the most part I’ve enjoyed the flow of ideas and such. I really wish the “love it or leave it� crowd would muzzle it. Sorry, I just hate that attitude.
Like BC_Shelby I am a little disappointed with some of the SN197 stangs short comings. But overall, I think the car is well done and well executed for the money.
I have been thinking about this while I have wrestled with what I am going to do. My 97 GT is coming up on 10 years old and I would like to buy a new one to replace it. My quandary over whether to wait for a Shelby, wait for a SE or buy a 07 and have fun modifying it. That is still not settled but I am leaning heavily to the last. One thing that is changing my thinking is how much I have enjoyed my 97 without modifying it. Like 06VistaGT says, the car is not meant to be an all out sports car that can hang in there with anything that has 4 wheels. That is what the Shelby is meant for. I get a laugh when I read about some snotty European sports car writer/enthusiast who tries to run the stang on a road course and fries the brakes after 6 laps. The stang was meant to be a fun driving car that will take some abuse without draining your wallet every time the insurance or the car payment comes due. For those who want more, it is a very affordable platform to start with. The fact that Ford has really opened up the car to the aftermarket on wets my appetite for one. Here we are nearly 10 years later and the aftermarket is finally getting around to making an intake for my car. It’s kinda like “what’s the point�?
My big thing that I would like to se is a package somewhere between the Shelby and the GT. More of a serious sports car but still affordable… One that has a really good bang for the buck. We’ll see what happens in the next year or so. I think I will try and wait until after the next Detroit auto show before making my decision. There is one thing I that I do know… I will enjoy the car that I buy. And that is the most important thing to me anyway!
John

trublustang03

I think it is good to see that there are people like Jack Frost and BC Shelby to bring a different perspective to an all Ford and Mustang Forum. Everybody has their own opinions and ideas. I for one I am extremely happy with my 05 Mustang. I think Ford did a heck of a job in hitting their target market. I have no regrets or complaints and I am very happy. Where I live in Jersey there are no GTs on dealer lots and just a few V6s, but I am not going to assume that because this is the situation where I live, that it is the same all throughout the country. Also I understand that Ford is in a hard place and everybody is singing the Doom and Gloom song, since that is the latest bandwagon to jump into. However, to me Ford seems to be trying their best to turn a profit. Last I heard Lincoln had actually hit their sales numbers with the Zephyr and it was actually outselling its Mercury Twin, when they originally thought it was going to be the other way around. I love Ford, I always think that there is room for improvement in the company, but it will take time to recover from the so called Nasser era. What we as enthusiast on this site need to understand is that because someone like Jack Frost says Ford won't be around in 2009, does not make it fact that it is his opinion and we all have one. I know it is frustrating dealing with all the negative comments, but then I look out my window and see that beautiful silver V8 Mustang and realize why I am still rallying for the blue oval.

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(instigator311 @ February 25, 2006, 5:44 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Like I said before, most car companies use cheap parts for their interiors, it's just how most cars are made these days, because it is the most economical and efficient way for the company and the buyers. Import cars are overrated and over priced.

And BC Shelby, YOU need to do some research, beacause Ford is definately still profitable, you're getting confused with GM, I know that for a fact. Sure, they aren't huge record breaking sales like your precious Toyota, but it's still profit isn't it? They're trying to turn things around, and it can't be done over night after all the trouble they've gotten themselves into, it's just gonna take some baby steps. And Ford has had plenty of "constructive criticism", and Ford has definately listened, it's about time people take a break from criticizing and try their products, without the import bias. BC Shelby, YOU also need to find some more viable sources. Trash talk, speculation, and desireability studies aren't viable sources. I've done my reasearch, it's time for YOU to do yours. Facts are facts, so stop substituting your own ignorance for intelligence, and leave the Mustang and it's loyal followers alone. The Mustang is an Icon for what it is, not for what some idiots want it to be.
[/b][/quote]
OK, "YOU" wanna play? Let's play.

Read this. "Ford posted a net profit of $1.88 billion for the first nine months of 2005, but its North American unit has lost more than $1.4 billion before taxes."

Read this. "General Motors Corp and Ford Motor Co. lost additional US sales and market share to Japanese rivals in January, analysts said, as consumers' shift toward more fuel-efficient vehicles left Detroit's top automakers in the slow lane."

Now, let's see YOUR sources. Maybe you should have another look at my Avatar - I am a loyal Ford fan and am buying a new Shelby GT500. But neither does it mean that I'm going to blow sunshine up everyone's **** and pretend to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

But hey, if sticking your head in the sand and pretending everthing's coming up roses is your thing, then knock yourself out, noob.

instigator311

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BC_Shelby @ February 25, 2006, 10:12 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
OK, "YOU" wanna play? Let's play.

Read this. "Ford posted a net profit of $1.88 billion for the first nine months of 2005, but its North American unit has lost more than $1.4 billion before taxes."

Read this. "General Motors Corp and Ford Motor Co. lost additional US sales and market share to Japanese rivals in January, analysts said, as consumers' shift toward more fuel-efficient vehicles left Detroit's top automakers in the slow lane."

Now, let's see YOUR sources. Maybe you should have another look at my Avatar - I am a loyal Ford fan and am buying a new Shelby GT500. But neither does it mean that I'm going to blow sunshine up everyone's **** and pretend to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

But hey, if sticking your head in the sand and pretending everthing's coming up roses is your thing, then knock yourself out, noob.
[/b][/quote]

You've just proved my point for me, nowhere in there did it say that Ford never made a profit. It just merely stated the obvious that their sales are declining. And as I have stated above, I am quite aware that their sales aren't spectacular, but it's still profit.

If you look back in your posts, you'd see that I copied the "YOU" thing from you, um "noob".

And here's my proof http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/10/news/compa...rtune/index.htm

"On paper Ford (Research) appears to have it much easier. Despite losing $1.6 billion in North America last year, Ford Motor remains profitable. It has more cash and less debt than GM (Research), its credit rating is higher, and its legacy costs are lower because it has shrunk less (and thus has fewer retirees to support)."
-Fortune Magazine



<span style="color:#FF0000">Keep it clean!
TMS Staff</span>

Scothew

No one is sticking anything anywhere. Now play fair guys or we'll clean the thread up of any off-topic conversation.

Jack Frost

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(instigator311 @ February 25, 2006, 11:05 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You've just proved my point for me, nowhere in there did it say that Ford never made a profit. It just merely stated the obvious that their sales are declining. And as I have stated above, I am quite aware that their sales aren't spectacular, but it's still profit.


And here's my proof http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/10/news/compa...rtune/index.htm

"On paper Ford (Research) appears to have it much easier. Despite losing $1.6 billion in North America last year, Ford Motor remains profitable. It has more cash and less debt than GM (Research), its credit rating is higher, and its legacy costs are lower because it has shrunk less (and thus has fewer retirees to support)."
-Fortune Magazine
<span style="color:#FF0000">Keep it clean!
TMS Staff</span>
[/b][/quote]

Talk about having the blinders on.

"It's credit rating is higher" than GM...well, Junk credit rating is still Junk. Both GM and Ford are rated *Junk*...I guess we can take solace that GM is 'junkier' than Ford. Gee, that's comforting to Ford shareholders.

And here's the kicker: So Ford remains profitable...how much of that profit is contributed by Ford Credit? I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of the profit comes from Ford Credit.

hiznherponies

BC, 1.88-1.4=.4 billion btw. Thats still in the positive side of the books. Europe, Asia, Russia, and South America all turned a profit last year.
Of course, maybe I'm biased, since I work for Ford, but you know, even if we don't get a profit-sharing check this year, I think we, as a company, are pulling our way back into the black. But thats my opinion, and I work there, and drive and own many Fords, with all of their short-comings!! You know, my ranger, at 12,500 mi., warped its rotors, and now, at over 25,000, they're warped again, so what am I gonna do, complain to the dealer or the company? No, I'll replace them, myself, which BC and Jack Frost probably wouldn't ever do, and just keep driving the wheels off it!!! You want an IRS? Like I said bfore, just put one in it yourself, thats the beauty of the Mustang, its a blank canvas for your self-expressions, whatever they may be!!!

Jack Frost

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hiznherponies @ February 26, 2006, 12:07 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You know, my ranger, at 12,500 mi., warped its rotors, and now, at over 25,000, they're warped again, so what am I gonna do, complain to the dealer or the company? No, I'll replace them, myself, which BC and Jack Frost probably wouldn't ever do, and just keep driving the wheels off it!!! You want an IRS? Like I said bfore, just put one in it yourself, thats the beauty of the Mustang, its a blank canvas for your self-expressions, whatever they may be!!!
[/b][/quote]

You don't just put an IRS in a car...a car has to be designed with IRS from day one...otherwise it's just a band-aid solution. Today's driver is very discerning about facts like this...especially the urban & younger crowd who set future trends. Neither of those groups will touch a solid rear axle with a 100 ft pole.

Oh, and the brakes...yeah, that's a great marketing strategy: buy from us and fix it yourself.

Man, it's 2006...people don't have time to work on their cars. It's not like the 60's & 70's where wife was at home and dad had plenty of time to look after warped rotors. Today, both husband and wife gotta work to stay ahead of 'the man'.




And to those of you that say the Mustang is an American muscle car designed purposely for America...Wake the heck up

This isn't the 60's anymore. The Mustang brand deserves to be auto shows not only in Detroit, but also in Geneva, Frankfurt and Tokyo. Ford *needs* it to be in those shows.

hiznherponies

Dude, I ain't got time for anything, I work 50-60 hours a weeks at the Mustang plant, got 4 kids, and 2 Mustangs that I'm resto-modding, plus I'm hoping to purchase a new 'stang sometime this year for some modular fun!! I do almost all of my own work (not going to do the body and paint, but I could if I had a place to do it), it just takes longer to get it done. Last time I checked, there was a couple of companies that had engineered IRS's for the new 'stang and even my 1st-gen. Yes, ENGINEERED!!! And, if I drove like an old lady(like you guys probably do), my brakes on the 4x4 ranger would be in better shape, but since I push it so hard, I get a little less life out of it.

Oh, and IMO the 'stang shouldn't change one iota, for at least 25 yrs or so, unless they make it look like a Fox 'stang!!!!JK!!!Maybe!!!!

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Frost @ February 25, 2006, 8:55 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Talk about having the blinders on.

"It's credit rating is higher" than GM...well, Junk credit rating is still Junk. Both GM and Ford are rated *Junk*...I guess we can take solace that GM is 'junkier' than Ford. Gee, that's comforting to Ford shareholders.

And here's the kicker: So Ford remains profitable...how much of that profit is contributed by Ford Credit? I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of the profit comes from Ford Credit.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah, well, some people here apparently don't understand simple Economics 101, I guess.

"Despite losing $1.6 billion in North America last year, Ford Motor remains profitable." Yes, Ford is profitable globally. But since when were we talking globally? We're talking domestic market, domestic cars and domestic manufacturing. Ford is losing money in the home market. And the home market is - or at least, was - it's biggest region.

I am a Ford fan, and rooting for their success. I do see room for optimism, and I think vehicles like the new Edge are a HUGE step in the right direction. However, I think the Mustang could have been a bit better...and should have been a bit better. Will that stop me from buying a Shelby? No.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(instigator311 @ February 25, 2006, 8:05 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You've just proved my point for me, nowhere in there did it say that Ford never made a profit. It just merely stated the obvious that their sales are declining. And as I have stated above, I am quite aware that their sales aren't spectacular, but it's still profit.

And here's my proof http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/10/news/compa...rtune/index.htm

"On paper Ford (Research) appears to have it much easier. Despite losing $1.6 billion in North America last year, Ford Motor remains profitable. It has more cash and less debt than GM (Research), its credit rating is higher, and its legacy costs are lower because it has shrunk less (and thus has fewer retirees to support)."
-Fortune Magazine
<span style="color:#FF0000">Keep it clean!
TMS Staff</span>
[/b][/quote]
Seriously, dude, you need to chill. It IS possible to have brand loyalty and still criticize the brand - otherwise no progress is ever made. But you need to understand that wishing something to be so, doesn't necessarily make it thus.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(instigator311 @ February 25, 2006, 8:05 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
If you look back in your posts, you'd see that I copied the "YOU" thing from you, um "noob".
[/b][/quote]
I don't need to go back and look at anything. You have 17 posts so far. End of discussion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hiznherponies @ February 25, 2006, 9:47 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Dude, I ain't got time for anything, I work 50-60 hours a weeks at the Mustang plant, got 4 kids, and 2 Mustangs that I'm resto-modding, plus I'm hoping to purchase a new 'stang sometime this year for some modular fun!! I do almost all of my own work (not going to do the body and paint, but I could if I had a place to do it), it just takes longer to get it done. Last time I checked, there was a couple of companies that had engineered IRS's for the new 'stang and even my 1st-gen. Yes, ENGINEERED!!! And, if I drove like an old lady(like you guys probably do), my brakes on the 4x4 ranger would be in better shape, but since I push it so hard, I get a little less life out of it.

Oh, and IMO the 'stang shouldn't change one iota, for at least 25 yrs or so, unless they make it look like a Fox 'stang!!!!JK!!!Maybe!!!!
[/b][/quote]
Um, I'm not sure, but I think you just helped make our point for us. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img]

hiznherponies

Please explain how I might have made your point for you? I'm very pleased with the new 'stang, even if its not a "world class car". I think that Ford did an excellent job with it, and the intereior is really nice the way it is. BTW, my '66 also has a hard dash, its metal!! So what if it has a lot of plastic in it, all cars do, ALL!!! For the money, you can't find a comparable ride, anywhere!!! If you guys had your way, it would have a full leather int. w/ wood trim, double insulated glass, 80% wool carpet, multi-zone climate control, heated seats, bluetooth, IRS w/ electronically controlled shocks or some other useless gizmos and pay north of $50k!! Might as well buy a M-B!!! The Mustang is supposed to be cheap, affordable fun!!!!No frills (well, not a lot of them)low-cost fun. Like the one guy said, there is a formula to the Mustang equation, and Ford stuck to it, for the most part. Yea, they are losing market-share, but they are turning things around, and if you haven't noticed, everyone has lost market-share, at least all of the domestic brands!!! The pie is only so big, and there's more players today than there was 10-15 years ago, so there's your Economics 101!!

Hollywood_North GT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hiznherponies @ February 25, 2006, 10:27 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Please explain how I might have made your point for you? I'm very pleased with the new 'stang, even if its not a "world class car". I think that Ford did an excellent job with it, and the intereior is really nice the way it is. BTW, my '66 also has a hard dash, its metal!! So what if it has a lot of plastic in it, all cars do, ALL!!! For the money, you can't find a comparable ride, anywhere!!! If you guys had your way, it would have a full leather int. w/ wood trim, double insulated glass, 80% wool carpet, multi-zone climate control, heated seats, bluetooth, IRS w/ electronically controlled shocks or some other useless gizmos and pay north of $50k!! Might as well buy a M-B!!! The Mustang is supposed to be cheap, affordable fun!!!!No frills (well, not a lot of them)low-cost fun. Like the one guy said, there is a formula to the Mustang equation, and Ford stuck to it, for the most part. Yea, they are losing market-share, but they are turning things around, and if you haven't noticed, everyone has lost market-share, at least all of the domestic brands!!! The pie is only so big, and there's more players today than there was 10-15 years ago, so there's your Economics 101!!
[/b][/quote]
I'm not trying to start an argument with you; really I'm not.

As to the options you list...

full leather int. w/ wood trim - Nope, don't need it.

double insulated glass - Don't need that either.

80% wool carpet - Can do without this too (though I hear a number of owners have complained that the factory floor mats on their Stangs are wearing out prematurely - so maybe a better synthetic weave is needed here)

multi-zone climate control - No thanks.

bluetooth - Ford already has a kit for that

IRS w/ electronically controlled shocks - I'll take the IRS but without the electronically controlled shocks.

heated seats - Yes, heated seats would be nice.

I would also have preferred a better quality of vinyl surfacing on the dash and door panels.

And that's pretty much it.

Do those few additions take us north of $50K. Not even maybe.

hiznherponies

not trying to argue with you either, and I apologize for grouping you with the other naysayers here. this thread was started for speculation on the '09 'stang and it has gone to a place nowhere near that, so lets just drop all of this and agree that everyone has differing opinions of what our pony should be from the factory and what it should be after we start messing with it!!! John