March 2010 5.0 Mustang has a 19 page spread on the 5.0
1/9/10, 03:16 PM
#22
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It's more a play on words, IMO. That's how the powdered metal process works. Much like a forging process, powdered metal, through heat and pressure, is formed in a die with the necessary draft, relief, etc built-in. A true forging, rather than being made from powder, is produced from billet.
The connecting rod is "forged" as one piece. When you "crack" a connecting rod, the bulbous end is split in two, ensuring a tight-tolerance fit when mated with the crank. Therefore, the split pieces are not interchangeable from conrod to conrod.
The connecting rod is "forged" as one piece. When you "crack" a connecting rod, the bulbous end is split in two, ensuring a tight-tolerance fit when mated with the crank. Therefore, the split pieces are not interchangeable from conrod to conrod.
1/9/10, 03:54 PM
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It's more a play on words, IMO. That's how the powdered metal process works. Much like a forging process, powdered metal, through heat and pressure, is formed in a die with the necessary draft, relief, etc built-in. A true forging, rather than being made from powder, is produced from billet.
The connecting rod is "forged" as one piece. When you "crack" a connecting rod, the bulbous end is split in two, ensuring a tight-tolerance fit when mated with the crank. Therefore, the split pieces are not interchangeable from conrod to conrod.
The connecting rod is "forged" as one piece. When you "crack" a connecting rod, the bulbous end is split in two, ensuring a tight-tolerance fit when mated with the crank. Therefore, the split pieces are not interchangeable from conrod to conrod.
However, does this mean the rods in the 5.0 are basically the same as the 4.6? Or is there just enough added strength for the increase comp ratio/HP?
You know I've been away from performance cars for a long time until my 08 Bullitt, so when I learned of the 'new tech' with powdered metal (aka the particle board of metal) I was dumbfounded (same goes for the the hyper... pistons that can't take a little knock).
I mean how much more would 'real' rods cost the consumer when Ford mass buys/produces them? Wouldn't stronger components be better for reputation than a bad rap for broken internals?
Last edited by cdynaco; 1/9/10 at 03:56 PM.
1/9/10, 03:56 PM
#26
I actually think eci hasn't been that bad lately...except for his personal vendetta against Boomer. I even saw a compliment from eci today!
Really, it probably just comes down to the fact we can't "read" emotion and sarcasm and voice inflection.
Or at least I like giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Really, it probably just comes down to the fact we can't "read" emotion and sarcasm and voice inflection.
Or at least I like giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Link?
I had to take him off ignore. Makes for good reading.
1/9/10, 03:56 PM
#27
I bought it too early? I bought it in August. I knew exactly what I was buying and about improvements coming in 2011 for the GT500. Perhaps if you'd grow up and stop flaming, and actually contribute, you'd see my posts are about tech and real information. Read the original post in this thread for example. I was quoting real tech. Only people like you bring up the "versus" crap. I am sorry you have an 06 GT that makes crap power with a junk tune and hope to own the top dog Mustang someday. Keep it up at McDonalds, you'll get there someday champ!
Sorry to burst your little insulting bubble, but if the 2011 GT500 is significantly upgraded versus the 2010, I'll buy one. I have that option. You probably don't =)
I've never made it about GT vs GT500, that's your deal. It's really sad that you think having a GT500 somehow makes you superior.
1/9/10, 03:59 PM
#28
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Thanx. And billet is a piece of flat steel right?
You know I've been away from performance cars for a long time until my 08 Bullitt, so when I learned of the 'new tech' with powdered metal (aka the particle board of metal) I was dumbfounded (same goes for the the hyper... pistons that can't take a little knock).
I mean how much more would 'real' rods cost the consumer when Ford mass buys/produces them? Wouldn't stronger components be better for reputation than a bad rap for broken internals?
You know I've been away from performance cars for a long time until my 08 Bullitt, so when I learned of the 'new tech' with powdered metal (aka the particle board of metal) I was dumbfounded (same goes for the the hyper... pistons that can't take a little knock).
I mean how much more would 'real' rods cost the consumer when Ford mass buys/produces them? Wouldn't stronger components be better for reputation than a bad rap for broken internals?
Ford is only concerned with providing the consumer with a 412 horsepower package that achieves 25+ MPG, meets all of their NVH criteria, within a certain, overall budget. If you run 12 lbs of boost and throw a rod, that's your problem (to Ford). Sure, they could forge all of the engine components, but that would add significant cost as the raw materials cost more, there's more machining involved, etc.
1/9/10, 04:04 PM
#30
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When something is "billet," it's machined out of a solid piece of steel, aluminum, etc, and not welded, cast and whatnot.
Ford is only concerned with providing the consumer with a 412 horsepower package that achieves 25+ MPG, meets all of their NVH criteria, within a certain, overall budget. If you run 12 lbs of boost and throw a rod, that's your problem (to Ford). Sure, they could forge all of the engine components, but that would add significant cost as the raw materials cost more, there's more machining involved, etc.
Ford is only concerned with providing the consumer with a 412 horsepower package that achieves 25+ MPG, meets all of their NVH criteria, within a certain, overall budget. If you run 12 lbs of boost and throw a rod, that's your problem (to Ford). Sure, they could forge all of the engine components, but that would add significant cost as the raw materials cost more, there's more machining involved, etc.
1/9/10, 04:08 PM
#31
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Perhaps the big savings is in less waste. I'm sure there is a lot of grinding/cutting away with forged whereas pouring powdered metal in a mold uses pretty much all of your raw material. After the mold 'cools', do you know if they do further heat treating to the shaped rod?
Last edited by MARZ; 1/9/10 at 06:14 PM.
1/9/10, 04:11 PM
#32
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negative connotation or not... facts about the engine are... facts! the rods aren't built to add super chargers off the bat... how positively can one address that? Just bringing it to the light."The Coyote team says the forged rod, powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough..."
So off the bat seemingly the most it can handle efficiently would be a tune and CAI? That's not to say the engine can't be SC'ed in the future tho for FRPP will come up with some...
Also, one would assume that the initial GT350 wouldn't be a supercharger to generate 450hp+. But rather more suspension orientated, along with superior tires and having the interior/exterior done over.
plus 11:1 isn't very boost friendly...
P.S. EVERYONE CHILL OUT
1/9/10, 04:17 PM
#33
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Yea, I read that article too... awesome info in there. Of which came straight from the mouths of the engineers... I don't see why everyone is giving you such a fuss about it?? negative connotation or not... facts about the engine are... facts! the rods aren't built to add super chargers off the bat... how positively can one address that? Just bringing it to the light.
"The Coyote team says the forged rod, powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough..."
So off the bat seemingly the most it can handle efficiently would be a tune and CAI? That's not to say the engine can't be SC'ed in the future tho for FRPP will come up with some...
Also, one would assume that the initial GT350 wouldn't be a supercharger to generate 450hp+. But rather more suspension orientated, along with superior tires and having the interior/exterior done over.
plus 11:1 isn't very boost friendly...
P.S. EVERYONE CHILL OUT
negative connotation or not... facts about the engine are... facts! the rods aren't built to add super chargers off the bat... how positively can one address that? Just bringing it to the light."The Coyote team says the forged rod, powdered-metal connecting rod is the least robust link in the 5.0 chain. Engineers noted it is absolutely strong enough for its naturally aspirated application in Mustang, but just absolutely strong enough..."
So off the bat seemingly the most it can handle efficiently would be a tune and CAI? That's not to say the engine can't be SC'ed in the future tho for FRPP will come up with some...
Also, one would assume that the initial GT350 wouldn't be a supercharger to generate 450hp+. But rather more suspension orientated, along with superior tires and having the interior/exterior done over.
plus 11:1 isn't very boost friendly...
P.S. EVERYONE CHILL OUT
1/9/10, 04:37 PM
#34
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I'm going to take a more wait-and-see approach. Whipple Superchargers has already stated that they have supercharger packages in the works for the new 5.0L, and that they'll be sold through FRPP like the 4.6L 3V compressors. That means, at least on the surface, that Ford knows this engine can handle some boost.
Plus we already know you'll make more power from less psi.
And this thing comes with 412hp right out of the box. Thats already 100hp over the outgoing 4.6, so the superchargers don't need to be that potent to get to the same power levels as enthusiasts are used to
1/9/10, 04:55 PM
#35
Anyone serious into modding cars is going to change the pistons/rods regardles.
so it's a moot point, for the average enthusiate 500hp is more than enough to be content with.
as a matter of fact if i was buying a 2011 gt i really don't think i would feel the need to mod it beyond some new rear gears. and exhaust. 412 is plenty for me, hell 300 keeps me smiling as i drive now!
so it's a moot point, for the average enthusiate 500hp is more than enough to be content with.
as a matter of fact if i was buying a 2011 gt i really don't think i would feel the need to mod it beyond some new rear gears. and exhaust. 412 is plenty for me, hell 300 keeps me smiling as i drive now!
1/9/10, 04:56 PM
#36
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1/9/10, 05:10 PM
#37
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For the techno eggheads among us, here is a thesis that compares strength, fatigue life, manufacturing costs, etc. for forged steel vs. powdered metal connecting rods. I haven't read through it yet, though.
http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/FatigueBehavior.pdf
http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/FatigueBehavior.pdf
1/9/10, 05:11 PM
#38
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Have to agree with Eci here. I am reading that article, and this is coming from the horses mouth. The new 5.0 Engine will be stronger than a 4.6, but it is not a GT500 drive train. There will be limits.....and its great that they are putting it out there now.
I rather see tech. The engine is out of the bag, and come Monday we should know everything. Its time for straight talk now. This wait and see stuff is last month or 2 months ago talk. Gimme articles, numbers, and facts, and lets talk tech.
I rather see tech. The engine is out of the bag, and come Monday we should know everything. Its time for straight talk now. This wait and see stuff is last month or 2 months ago talk. Gimme articles, numbers, and facts, and lets talk tech.
1/9/10, 05:19 PM
#40
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I think it is obvious that if the new 5.0 get either turbocharged or supercharged from the factory it will have forged rods and pistons. The article never said that they would use the GT rods and pistons.