Concept release...when?
12/4/07, 09:33 PM
#101
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I drove an aquaintances GT500 back when my car had a stock suspension.
My impressions were that handling wise. The GT had it all over the GT500 in terms of overall feel and ballance. Now after modding my suspension a bit, adding better brakes, etc. I believe it is a far better road course car.
Think about it. Sure, they revised the spring and shock rates on the gt500 and added heavier sway bars. And beefed up a couple bushings here or there. To me that does not compensate for adding 500lbs of heft to the nose of the car.
When I bought my car, if the GT500 was availible, I would have likely bought one if it sold for sticker. And for that price, it is great.
But if someone offered me one for 5K under sticker right now I would not flinch. Not after driving one myself and seeing the differences. Not worth the upgrade to me.
Of course, this is just one mans opinion. To me, the "shelby" is nothing more than an SVT cobra. Shelby had nothing to do with that car other than blessing it.
The shelby GT is more of a shelby, but even with that said, there is nothing unique and non ford about the mods he does. Essentially they are not doing anything special that could not be gotten from and FRPP catalog.
Ford dropped the ball on the bullitt too. It is sad when the only things that excite me about the car are the argent grill surround and shifter. Maybe the CAI heat shield.
If you think about it, why should ford bother with adding "special" engines to the bullitt. They will sell every one they build for sticker or above to happy customers.
When I can walk into a ford dealer and actually order a mustang with my choice of engines and suspension/brake/sport packages for sticker or below then I will flitch
My impressions were that handling wise. The GT had it all over the GT500 in terms of overall feel and ballance. Now after modding my suspension a bit, adding better brakes, etc. I believe it is a far better road course car.
Think about it. Sure, they revised the spring and shock rates on the gt500 and added heavier sway bars. And beefed up a couple bushings here or there. To me that does not compensate for adding 500lbs of heft to the nose of the car.
When I bought my car, if the GT500 was availible, I would have likely bought one if it sold for sticker. And for that price, it is great.
But if someone offered me one for 5K under sticker right now I would not flinch. Not after driving one myself and seeing the differences. Not worth the upgrade to me.
Of course, this is just one mans opinion. To me, the "shelby" is nothing more than an SVT cobra. Shelby had nothing to do with that car other than blessing it.
The shelby GT is more of a shelby, but even with that said, there is nothing unique and non ford about the mods he does. Essentially they are not doing anything special that could not be gotten from and FRPP catalog.
Ford dropped the ball on the bullitt too. It is sad when the only things that excite me about the car are the argent grill surround and shifter. Maybe the CAI heat shield.
If you think about it, why should ford bother with adding "special" engines to the bullitt. They will sell every one they build for sticker or above to happy customers.
When I can walk into a ford dealer and actually order a mustang with my choice of engines and suspension/brake/sport packages for sticker or below then I will flitch
12/4/07, 09:40 PM
#102
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I'm glad someone agrees with me with the GT handling better than the 500! As far as the Bullitt goes I would'nt be suprised if they sit on lots, I see plently of Shelby GTs sitting at local Ford dealerships. Truth is both the Shelby GT and Bullitt are not much of an improvement for the ADMs that people are paying for.
12/4/07, 10:05 PM
#103
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
I think the GT500 is a great deal at sticker because the car works so well as a whole. I personally wouldn't pay over sticker for one (I wont pay over sticker for anything) and while I'll admit Ford could likely have made the sticker a bit higher than they did I wouldn't be willing to pay over 50k for a GT500 even assuming the sticker was higher and that the car was completely loaded. (of course, it might help to mention that I despise NAV systems here)
In the end I think the GT500 has reached the level of demand that it has because it is a very powerful, very attractive, very well rounded GT in a price range where GT's this well executed simply don't exist. Even at sticker we all know that you can buy a Vette for the same price, but then you have to be willing to give up the advantages a GT like the GT500 brings to the table to make the switch. For example, the Vette handles better at the limit but the GT500 is easily more comfortable. And according to Car and Driver, who apparently cannot stand the GT500, the Shelby/Ford can cover twisty ground almost as fast as the Vette can anyway so in the real world where most drivers aren't going to go past 8/10ths more than a few times if ever owners haven't really given up anything.
Spec sheets only tell us a very small portion of how good a car actually is. In the real world when you have to live with the car every day by most accounts the GT500 shines. The car does everything a proper GT is supposed to do extremely well, and that makes a big difference when it comes time to sell a car.
In the end I think the GT500 has reached the level of demand that it has because it is a very powerful, very attractive, very well rounded GT in a price range where GT's this well executed simply don't exist. Even at sticker we all know that you can buy a Vette for the same price, but then you have to be willing to give up the advantages a GT like the GT500 brings to the table to make the switch. For example, the Vette handles better at the limit but the GT500 is easily more comfortable. And according to Car and Driver, who apparently cannot stand the GT500, the Shelby/Ford can cover twisty ground almost as fast as the Vette can anyway so in the real world where most drivers aren't going to go past 8/10ths more than a few times if ever owners haven't really given up anything.
Spec sheets only tell us a very small portion of how good a car actually is. In the real world when you have to live with the car every day by most accounts the GT500 shines. The car does everything a proper GT is supposed to do extremely well, and that makes a big difference when it comes time to sell a car.
However despite it's technical superiority over it's SVT predecessors, along with it's retro styling..
The GT500 still isn't worth 15-20k above sticker either, as no late model Mustang is worth $55,000-$70,000.. And that also includes, both the Roush, and the Saleen..
at least not IMO anyhow
12/4/07, 10:39 PM
#104
The GT500 more comfortible than a C6 Vette? You gotta be kidding me! Have you ever driven a C6? Its near luxery, quiet no squeeks n raddles perfect build quality, soft sefaces in the interior. I think the biggest advantages of the GT500 over a Vette is the back seat and the wow factor of being a rarer car but the Vette is superior in every other way, more of a bargain than a GT500
The Vette's ride actually is pretty good, for a sports car, but it isn't even on the same level as a run of the mill S197 GT which means that, when you throw the seats into the equation, this isn't a close race. Vette build quality, at least on the inside, borders on being an abomination to God. IMO the GT500's interior with the IUP looks much better and gives the perception of higher quality, which is saying something since there are many facets of the Mustang's interior which drive me nuts.
Other complaints. C6 steering is amazingly numb for a sports car, an unfortunate side effect of the transverse leaf spring IFS used upfront. Again, while I haven't driven a GT500 more than one source has gone well out of their way to state how good steering feel and feedback are. But this too is not a surprise since this is typically a side effect of a well-developed mac strut IFS and even a standard Mustang GT has better feedback than a Vette. (ever wonder why BMW uses these on every car they build?)
There are things not to like about each car. But to act as though the Vette does everything better just doesn't hold water. By all counts it seems as though the GT500 does the things you would expect a proper GT to do better...well, better.
12/5/07, 01:39 PM
#105
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All I know is this.
First off. The C6.5 vette is now not all that bad interior wise at this point, but it is no audi per say.
That being said, performance and price wise, the fact that a "normal" vette with a Z51 pkg that can be gotten for under sticker at any chevy dealer (less than a GT500) is impressive.
Whats more impressive is the fact that vette is quicker down the strip than the Gt500 is stock and this summer at watkins glen the stock vettes were putting down great times compared to a GT500 that was run there by what I consider to be a pretty good driver.
Ok, so it holds 4 passengers and holds some luggage. Does that make it worth 60K dollars?
Do I love the mustang, SURE!! Is the vette cool. yup. But if I was going to drop 55-65K on a car sports car, I would be in a porsche or BMW dealer. Not at ford, probably not at chevy.
Ford hit the sweet spot with the 30K dollar GT which is amazing for the money. And for around 40K the GT500's shortcomings are very easy to overlook. But there are not enough differences between the cars to warrent the money they sell for imo.
As far as collectible wise. If they do three years, and make roughly 25-30K cars. How is that collectable again? In 40 years if there is only a few thousand left in the world in nice shape, then they will be collectable.
First off. The C6.5 vette is now not all that bad interior wise at this point, but it is no audi per say.
That being said, performance and price wise, the fact that a "normal" vette with a Z51 pkg that can be gotten for under sticker at any chevy dealer (less than a GT500) is impressive.
Whats more impressive is the fact that vette is quicker down the strip than the Gt500 is stock and this summer at watkins glen the stock vettes were putting down great times compared to a GT500 that was run there by what I consider to be a pretty good driver.
Ok, so it holds 4 passengers and holds some luggage. Does that make it worth 60K dollars?
Do I love the mustang, SURE!! Is the vette cool. yup. But if I was going to drop 55-65K on a car sports car, I would be in a porsche or BMW dealer. Not at ford, probably not at chevy.
Ford hit the sweet spot with the 30K dollar GT which is amazing for the money. And for around 40K the GT500's shortcomings are very easy to overlook. But there are not enough differences between the cars to warrent the money they sell for imo.
As far as collectible wise. If they do three years, and make roughly 25-30K cars. How is that collectable again? In 40 years if there is only a few thousand left in the world in nice shape, then they will be collectable.
12/5/07, 02:25 PM
#106
One thing in particular about this thread continues to baffle me. At no point in this entire thread has anybody made a statement defending ADM's on the GT500. The closest statment we've had to this is one in which I made where I point out that Ford could obviously have asked a bit more for the car than they did, which falls squarely into Captain Obvious territory by this point, immediately after which I stated that I wouldn't even consider paying over sticker for the car. And yet, every couple of posts we have somebody arguing that the car isn't worth what the dealers are charging. With respect, and in no way being a smart ***...what are these posts rebutting?
That said, the C6.5's interior is effectively no different than that found in the C6 unless you opt for a 10k package which turns the Vette into a 55k plus car. Standard fare is still more or less the same as it was with the previous C6 and still, to be blunt, sucks. Most unforgivable, the seats in the C6.5 are still the same terrible seats the C6 was mired with. And this point truly does confound me, since GM has cars with far better seats than this on the market as we speak. The GTO's seats were enormously better for example.
As fo acceleration. Best effort to best effort the GT500 and C6.5 are both somewhere in the low 12's. By all accounts the GT500 is much more difficult to extract this level of performance from meaning that an average driver will be much faster in the Vette than the Shelby, a point many like to argue. But then, if you don't care enough about extracting max performance to be a better than average driver I don't really understand why a few tenths matter to you anyway? It's like arguing that your bolt action is more acurate than your buddies even though you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka.
IMO the Vette and the GT500 are both a deal at 45k and maintain their appeal so long as the sticker's don't exceed 50k. Beyond that neither is polished enough to make a very good argument however fast they might be. But then I'm kinda disappoinnted in most hi-po cars on the market which fit into the 50-100k category. Those possessing the performance to standout here seldom seem to live up to their price tags in other aspects while those that possess the build quality and materials to justify such a price tag often seem to be lacking in terms of motor. Porsche's 911 and BMW's M3 come the closest IMO, but even they could use a bit more oomph under the hood.
That said, the C6.5's interior is effectively no different than that found in the C6 unless you opt for a 10k package which turns the Vette into a 55k plus car. Standard fare is still more or less the same as it was with the previous C6 and still, to be blunt, sucks. Most unforgivable, the seats in the C6.5 are still the same terrible seats the C6 was mired with. And this point truly does confound me, since GM has cars with far better seats than this on the market as we speak. The GTO's seats were enormously better for example.
As fo acceleration. Best effort to best effort the GT500 and C6.5 are both somewhere in the low 12's. By all accounts the GT500 is much more difficult to extract this level of performance from meaning that an average driver will be much faster in the Vette than the Shelby, a point many like to argue. But then, if you don't care enough about extracting max performance to be a better than average driver I don't really understand why a few tenths matter to you anyway? It's like arguing that your bolt action is more acurate than your buddies even though you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka.
IMO the Vette and the GT500 are both a deal at 45k and maintain their appeal so long as the sticker's don't exceed 50k. Beyond that neither is polished enough to make a very good argument however fast they might be. But then I'm kinda disappoinnted in most hi-po cars on the market which fit into the 50-100k category. Those possessing the performance to standout here seldom seem to live up to their price tags in other aspects while those that possess the build quality and materials to justify such a price tag often seem to be lacking in terms of motor. Porsche's 911 and BMW's M3 come the closest IMO, but even they could use a bit more oomph under the hood.
12/5/07, 05:55 PM
#107
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Why doesnt Ford build as many GT500s as possible? The ADMs only benefit the dealerships but if GT500 production is increased than Ford can cash in on more $$$ that they without a doubt need
As far as the Vette goes lets not forget that a Z06 will completly destroy any BMW or Posche for half the price. The Vette may not be the most polished (the interior, I think its great but thats just me...) but will post quicker times on just about all of the world's racetracks. and still get almost 30mpg on the highway with 505HP! I don't get the facinaton with the BMWs, Porsche coupes.......
As far as the Vette goes lets not forget that a Z06 will completly destroy any BMW or Posche for half the price. The Vette may not be the most polished (the interior, I think its great but thats just me...) but will post quicker times on just about all of the world's racetracks. and still get almost 30mpg on the highway with 505HP! I don't get the facinaton with the BMWs, Porsche coupes.......
12/5/07, 06:06 PM
#108
The other problem with saturating the market with GT-500s, is that doing so can actually decrease demand as the model becomes less rare. Many customers for unique car models shell out the big bucks for bragging rights, "I have one and you don't." If marketing has done their job right, Ford will build just a few less GT-500s than they could sell, which maintains the GT-500s rarity and demand.
12/5/07, 06:12 PM
#109
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As far as the Vette goes lets not forget that a Z06 will completly destroy any BMW or Posche for half the price. The Vette may not be the most polished (the interior, I think its great but thats just me...) but will post quicker times on just about all of the world's racetracks. and still get almost 30mpg on the highway with 505HP! I don't get the facinaton with the BMWs, Porsche coupes.......
All time Nurburgring street car records.
6:55* -- 178.699 km/h -- Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg, Michael Vergers (sep,28 05), (*street-legal only in the UK)
http://www.radicalextremesportscars....0905/index.php
http://www.radicalextremesportscars....ring/index.php
7:11* -- 172.065 km/h -- McLaren F1 (GTR?), Mika Hakkinen, http://www.sps-automotive.com/en_sps...7Nt_zonda.html (* not an official source)
7:12* -- 171.666 km/h -- Radical SR3 Turbo, 320 PS/500 kg (test drive 07/03) (*mfr.)
7:14.89 171.181 km/h – Donkervoort D8 270 RS, , 350 PS/600 kg, Michael Düchting (nov,6 05), http://autoweek.nl/newsdisp.php?cache=no&ID=4199
7:15.63 169.311 km/h -- Edo Porsche 996 GT2 RS, 542 PS/1284 kg, Patrick Simons (sport auto 09/05), http://www.edo-competition.de/filead...eife_runde.avi
http://www.chpltd.com/911_porsche_wo...ngmeister.html
7:18.01 170.236 km/h -- Donkervoort D8 RS, 370 PS/670 kg, Michael Duechting, sport auto 12/2004 http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?v...ID=2&tID=13957
7:19* -- 168.929 km/h -- Radical SR3 1500 Turbo, Phil Bennet (jun,15 03) (*mfr.), http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/new...iefe/index.php
www.radicalsportscars.com/gallery/ring2b.mpg
7:27.82 167.201 km/h -- Pagani Zonda F Clubsport, 641 PS/1230 kg, Marc Basseng (EVO #112) http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/228650/
7:28* -- 166.652 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, * company testd river Walther Roehrl (Autobild 07/04)
7:31 --- 164,375 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT2, 530 PS/1440 kg, company test driver Walter Roehrl according to www.automotorsport.se/tv/?m=11159
7:32* -- 164.071 km/h -- Pagani Zonda F, 650 PS/1230 kg (*mfr.) www.autodrome-cannes.com/index-eng.asp
7:32* -- 164.071 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT2, 530 PS/ 1440 kg, company test driver Walter Roehrl (*mfr.) http://www.caranddriver.com/previews...e-911-gt2.html
7:32.18 - 164.071 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT2, 530 PS/ 1440 kg, company test driver Walter Roehrl http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Theme...ng_422642.html
7:32.44 163.911 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, definitive time Horst von Saurma (sport auto 01/04)
7:32.52 163.882 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (sport auto 01) , www.gemballa.com/news/gtr6002.html
7:33 --- 163.708 km/h -- Pagani Zonda F, 602 PS/ 1371 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto 05/06) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=2&tID=83550
7:33 --- 163.708 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT2, 530 PS/1497 kg (sport auto 11/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=142508
7:34 --- 163.586 km/h -- Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto, oct,17-18 05) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=2&tID=75219
7:35* -- 159.864 km/h -- Nissan GT-R, 473 PS/1724 kg (*mfr.) http://www.motortrend.com/future/spi...08_nissan_gt_r
7:36 --- 162.631 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (02)
7:36 --- 162.631 km/h -- Mercedes SL 63 AMG Black Series http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/n...7838_13987.hbs
7.38* -- 161.628 km/h -- Mercedes SLR 722 GT, *company test driver Chris Goodwin http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/n...7671_13987.hbs
7.38* -- 161.628 km/h -- Nissan GT-R, *company test driver Suzuki, http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...opanel..1.*#40
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uGe_fyhQazg http://youtube.com/watch?v=mqjnwbji13k
7.38.56 - 161.578 km/h -- Nissan R32 GT-R
7.39* -- 161.575 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, *mfr. (quote sport auto 05/06)
7:39 --- 161.575 km/h -- Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1180 kg, http://www.koenigsegg.com/news/artic...age=&type=news
7.39 --- 161.575 km/h -- TechArt GT street (based on 997 Turbo) 620 PS/1552 kg (sport auto 10/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=1&tID=140084
http://www.sportauto-online.de/aktue...7063_14469.hbs
7:39.39 161.219 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, Walther Röhrl (AutoBild 02/06)
7:40 --- 161.217 km/h – Bugatti 16/4 Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40* -- 161.217 km/h – Lamborghini Murcielago LP640, 640 PS/1655 kg (AutoBild sportscars 01/07) *mfr., company test driver Giorgio Sanna
7:40 --- 161.217 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:40* -- 161.217 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1495 kg, *cold and partially wet track (sport auto 12/03)
7:40 --- 161.217 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/ ??? kg, Michelin Cup Sport tyres (Motortrend)
7:41 --- 160.868 km/h -- Manthey Porsche GT3 M410, 413hp (AutoBild 07/04), http://www.manthey-motors.de/nextsho...pdf.asp?id=217
7:42* -- 160.519 km/h – Ford GT, 550 PS/ 1521 kg (*as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:42 --- 160.519 km/h -- Mosler MT900S Photon, Joao Barbosa (04) (according to dailysportscar.net)
7:42 --- 160.519 km/h –- Porsche 997 GT3 RS, 415 PS/1420 kg (*mfr.)
7:42 --- 160.519 km/h -- Radical 1500 SR3, 230 PS/510 kg (02) http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/new...iefe/index.php
7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg, Jan Magnusen, (Sporbilen, jun,26 05) http://www.supercars.net/Pics?vpf2=y...ID=1384471&l=d
7:43 --- 160.173 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Roehrl (MOTOR magazine)
7:43 --- 160.173 km/h -- TechArt Porsche GT Street (based on 996 GT2) 620 PS/1453 kg, (sport auto 08/02)
7:43.5 - 160,000 km/h -- Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 02)
7:44* -- 159.828 km/h -- Nissan GT-R, 473 PS/1724 kg *company chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno, http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../71017001/1065
7:44 --- 159.828 km/h -- Pagani Zonda C12 S, 555 PS/1388 kg (sport auto 07/02)
7:45* -- 159.484 km/h -- Aston Martin V8 Vantage N24, 385 PS/1350 kg (race car, not street-legal, slicks)(*mfr.)
7:45 --- 159.484 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600, 600 PS (00)
7:45* -- 159.484 km/h -- Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black Series, 507 PS/1760 kg (*mfr.) according to http://www.caranddriver.com/previews...ck-series.html
7:45* -- 159.484 km/h -- McLaren F1, *estimated lap time from a video available at www.pistonheads.tv
7:45*-- 159.484 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3 RS, 415 PS/ 1424 kg, worls driver Walter Roehrl, *mfr.
7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Jaguar XJ220, John Walton (EVO magzine 07/00), www.jwhubbers.nl/ring/docs/evo-0007-7.jpg
7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera, 522 PS/1528 kg (sport auto 09/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=137437
7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/01)
7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (sport auto 99)
7:46.29 159.140 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera, 522 PS/1500 kg (Auto Italy 09/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=136632
7:47 --- 158.801 km/h –- Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, 620 PS/1805 kg (sport auto 01/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=134701
7:47 --- 158.801 km/h –- Lamborghini Murcielago LP640, 640 PS/1748 kg (sport auto 08/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=111663
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73dNW...e=user&search=
7:47* -- 158.801 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/ 1440 kg, works driver Walter Roehrl, *mfr.
7:48 --- 158.463 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3 RS, 415 PS/1424 kg (sport auto 03/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=120285
7:48 --- 158.463 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440kg (sport auto 07/06) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=2&tID=91836
7:49 --- 158.124 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 512 PS/1440 kg (sport auto 06/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=0&tID=129099
www.youtube.com/watch?v=62WfAYRcaHI
7:49 --- 158.124 km/h –- BMW X5 Le Mans, 700 PS/~2000 kg, Hans-Joachim Stuck
7.49 --- 158.124 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3, 392 PS (AutoBild 2004)
7:49 --- 158.124 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup, 360 PS/1207 kg (sport auto 02/99)
7:49.72 157.885 km/h -- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (93) (moto bike)
7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- BMW E46 M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- Lamborghini Murcielago, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/02)
7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- Westfield Super 7 with Hayabusa engine,
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h – Ford GT, 550 PS/1599 kg (sport auto 02/06)
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (sport auto 95)
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo E-gear, 493 PS/1496 kg (sport auto 12/03)
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (sport auto 06/04)
7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Mercedes CLK DTM AMG, 582 PS/1678kg, (sport auto 03/05) http://www.sportauto-online.de/test_...0696_14469.hbs
7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 (sport auto 06/03)
7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 06/07) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=2&tID=126501
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPvBu...e=user&search=
7:55* -- 156.126 km/h -- Aston Martin V8 Vantage N24, 385 PS/1350 kg (race car, not street-legal)(*mfr.)
7:55 --- 156.126 km/h -- Caterham R500 Superlight, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/00)
7:55 --- 156.126 km/h – Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06) http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=2&tID=67305
7:55 --- 156.126 km/h -- Nissan GT-R, 473 PS/1724 kg http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../71017001/1065
7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, 425 PS/1387 kg (sport auto 02/04)
7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Porsche 996 Turbo, 420 PS/1569 kg (sport auto 06/00)
7:56* - 155.798 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 ,company chief engineer Dave Hill (*mfr.)
7:56.50 155.594 km/h -- Mercedes CLK DTM AMG, 582 PS/1678kg, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 02/06)
7:56.65 155.569 km/h – Lamborghini Gallardo SE, 520 PS/1560 kg, Tom Kristensen (AutoBild 02/06)
7:56.73* 155.569 km/h -- Honda NSX-R (*Best Motoring video "Carrera Invasion", lap not complete)
7:57 --- 155.472 km/h -- AC Schnitzer Tension, 552 PS/1797 kg (sport auto 04/07), http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...D=1&tID=123445
7:57 --- 155.472 km/h -- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS/1558 kg (sport auto 05/98)
7:58 --- 156.652 km/h -- Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/ 1650 kg, Frank Stippler, (10/05) http://www.8200rpm.com/forum/read.ph...16841&t=16841\
7:59 --- 154.822 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Performance”, (Walter Roehrl WHEELS 06/ 2004)
7:59* -- 154.822 km/h -- Chevrolet C6 Z51, company test driver Dave Hill (*mfr.)
7:59* -- 154.822 km/h -- Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R (*free of the speed limiter standard on UK versions, so it was discounted)
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/228511/
7:59.41 154.690 km/h -- Subaru Impreza WRX STi spec.C "prototype" (2004), www.subaru.com.hk/pdf/SNW0404.pdf
12/5/07, 06:19 PM
#110
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I do understand but I think its a flawed system. Chevy for example sets no cap on the Z06, thus ADMs dropped off quickly and loyal Chevy consumers were kept happy. My personal example of dealing with ADMs cost them a long time customer. Throughout my life I have only owned Ford products, like many here on this websight I had my eye on an s197 SVT since I first laid my eyes on the 03' Concept cars. I put down a $2500 deposit back in 04' (knew nothing about the car, yet I was ready to buy one) I was promised that I would have first dibs on the next SVT at MSRP. Nearly three years later when the Shelbys finaly hit dealerships i'm given my money back and rudly told "If you want you can buy it for $100,000) I was also planning on buying a Fusion around this time, so insted of keeping a customer happy (that was gonna buy two cars) I was basically given the finger. I wound up buying a used 03' Cobra and recently purchased a new Subaru Legacy GT. The insult I received from Ford's dealers will remain to this day and will only buy a Ford if had at MSRP or used never again will I let them make a fool out of me. On the flip side a wealthy neighbor of mine was able to pre-order a Z06 corvette in 06' and was given no hassel at all, thus he is still a loyal chevy customer. Ford is burning a lot of bridges with GT500 ADMs
12/5/07, 06:35 PM
#111
I do understand but I think its a flawed system. Chevy for example sets no cap on the Z06, thus ADMs dropped off quickly and loyal Chevy consumers were kept happy. My personal example of dealing with ADMs cost them a long time customer. Throughout my life I have only owned Ford products, like many here on this websight I had my eye on an s197 SVT since I first laid my eyes on the 03' Concept cars. I put down a $2500 deposit back in 04' (knew nothing about the car, yet I was ready to buy one) I was promised that I would have first dibs on the next SVT at MSRP. Nearly three years later when the Shelbys finaly hit dealerships i'm given my money back and rudly told "If you want you can buy it for $100,000) I was also planning on buying a Fusion around this time, so insted of keeping a customer happy (that was gonna buy two cars) I was basically given the finger. I wound up buying a used 03' Cobra and recently purchased a new Subaru Legacy GT. The insult I received from Ford's dealers will remain to this day and will only buy a Ford if had at MSRP or used never again will I let them make a fool out of me. On the flip side a wealthy neighbor of mine was able to pre-order a Z06 corvette in 06' and was given no hassel at all, thus he is still a loyal chevy customer. Ford is burning a lot of bridges with GT500 ADMs
There was and is a cap on Z06 production numbers, it's the nature of modern mass production in general that you have to know within a measure of reason what amount of product you plan to produce well before you actually produce it. The reason ADM's fell off of Z06 coupes so quickly is because the car fell well short of GM's sales expectations and not because GM was interested in making enough for everybody....no plainer way to say it. And no matter how happy that may be making potential customers it isn't putting a smile on the General's collective corporate face.
12/5/07, 07:32 PM
#112
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
One thing in particular about this thread continues to baffle me. At no point in this entire thread has anybody made a statement defending ADM's on the GT500. The closest statment we've had to this is one in which I made where I point out that Ford could obviously have asked a bit more for the car than they did, which falls squarely into Captain Obvious territory by this point, immediately after which I stated that I wouldn't even consider paying over sticker for the car. And yet, every couple of posts we have somebody arguing that the car isn't worth what the dealers are charging. With respect, and in no way being a smart ***...what are these posts rebutting?
That said, the C6.5's interior is effectively no different than that found in the C6 unless you opt for a 10k package which turns the Vette into a 55k plus car. Standard fare is still more or less the same as it was with the previous C6 and still, to be blunt, sucks. Most unforgivable, the seats in the C6.5 are still the same terrible seats the C6 was mired with. And this point truly does confound me, since GM has cars with far better seats than this on the market as we speak. The GTO's seats were enormously better for example.
As fo acceleration. Best effort to best effort the GT500 and C6.5 are both somewhere in the low 12's. By all accounts the GT500 is much more difficult to extract this level of performance from meaning that an average driver will be much faster in the Vette than the Shelby, a point many like to argue. But then, if you don't care enough about extracting max performance to be a better than average driver I don't really understand why a few tenths matter to you anyway? It's like arguing that your bolt action is more acurate than your buddies even though you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka.
IMO the Vette and the GT500 are both a deal at 45k and maintain their appeal so long as the sticker's don't exceed 50k. Beyond that neither is polished enough to make a very good argument however fast they might be. But then I'm kinda disappoinnted in most hi-po cars on the market which fit into the 50-100k category. Those possessing the performance to standout here seldom seem to live up to their price tags in other aspects while those that possess the build quality and materials to justify such a price tag often seem to be lacking in terms of motor. Porsche's 911 and BMW's M3 come the closest IMO, but even they could use a bit more oomph under the hood.
That said, the C6.5's interior is effectively no different than that found in the C6 unless you opt for a 10k package which turns the Vette into a 55k plus car. Standard fare is still more or less the same as it was with the previous C6 and still, to be blunt, sucks. Most unforgivable, the seats in the C6.5 are still the same terrible seats the C6 was mired with. And this point truly does confound me, since GM has cars with far better seats than this on the market as we speak. The GTO's seats were enormously better for example.
As fo acceleration. Best effort to best effort the GT500 and C6.5 are both somewhere in the low 12's. By all accounts the GT500 is much more difficult to extract this level of performance from meaning that an average driver will be much faster in the Vette than the Shelby, a point many like to argue. But then, if you don't care enough about extracting max performance to be a better than average driver I don't really understand why a few tenths matter to you anyway? It's like arguing that your bolt action is more acurate than your buddies even though you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka.
IMO the Vette and the GT500 are both a deal at 45k and maintain their appeal so long as the sticker's don't exceed 50k. Beyond that neither is polished enough to make a very good argument however fast they might be. But then I'm kinda disappoinnted in most hi-po cars on the market which fit into the 50-100k category. Those possessing the performance to standout here seldom seem to live up to their price tags in other aspects while those that possess the build quality and materials to justify such a price tag often seem to be lacking in terms of motor. Porsche's 911 and BMW's M3 come the closest IMO, but even they could use a bit more oomph under the hood.
And what really baffles me about some of your posts are..You've stated time and time again, that you wouldn't even consider paying over sticker for the car, and then at the same time..you post just the exact opposite by stating your baffled, that at no point in the entire thread, has anyone made a statement defending ADM's on the GT500..
With all due respect..were you actually expecting anyone in this thread, to defend ADM markups, or am I just missing something here
You also mentioned, that Ford could have asked a bit more for the car.. well the point is ! it's too high as it is now..
As I also don't mean to come off as a smart *** but it seems to me, that your playing both sides of the fence..as I'm really having a very difficult time, in understanding where your coming from..
12/5/07, 08:30 PM
#113
What these posts are rebutting is..most of us don't agree, that the GT500 is worth the 15-20k markup, in which dealers are expecting..So why would anyone in their right mind, defend such ludicrous ADM tactics to begin with..
And what really baffles me about some of your posts are..You've stated time and time again, that you wouldn't even consider paying over sticker for the car, and then at the same time..you post just the exact opposite by stating your baffled, that at no point in the entire thread, has anyone made a statement defending ADM's on the GT500..
With all due respect..were you actually expecting anyone in this thread, to defend ADM markups, or am I just missing something here
You also mentioned, that Ford could have asked a bit more for the car.. well the point is ! it's too high as it is now..
As I also don't mean to come off as a smart *** but it seems to me, that your playing both sides of the fence..as I'm really having a very difficult time, in understanding where your coming from..
And what really baffles me about some of your posts are..You've stated time and time again, that you wouldn't even consider paying over sticker for the car, and then at the same time..you post just the exact opposite by stating your baffled, that at no point in the entire thread, has anyone made a statement defending ADM's on the GT500..
With all due respect..were you actually expecting anyone in this thread, to defend ADM markups, or am I just missing something here
You also mentioned, that Ford could have asked a bit more for the car.. well the point is ! it's too high as it is now..
As I also don't mean to come off as a smart *** but it seems to me, that your playing both sides of the fence..as I'm really having a very difficult time, in understanding where your coming from..
and while I'll admit Ford could likely have made the sticker a bit higher than they did I wouldn't be willing to pay over 50k for a GT500 even assuming the sticker was higher and that the car was completely loaded
First, I said that Ford could have asked more for the car than they did. To make sure there is no room for misunderstanding here this has very little to do with anybody's opinion and a whole lot to do with the fact that GT500's likely wont be regularly moving at sticker before the end of the cars second year on the market. This is strictly a factual business observation...Ford could obviously have made the msrp higher and the cars would still have sold. I stated this in predlude to my thoughts on the actual, real world value of the car which were and are......
...If Ford chose to make the sticker price higher I would be willing to pay as much as 50k for a fully loaded GT500 coupe but no more. Put simply, I think your missing the part where I said...
even assuming the sticker was higher
At no point in any of that is an ADM defended. And at no point in any thread did I ever show dismay that people weren't defending ADM's. I do point out that the GT500 is, IMO, a bargain at sticker and that I believe the car is even worth a couple grand more than current sticker price if Ford chose to ask for it...and when I say a couple grand I mean a couple grand not 5k, 10k, or even 15k. Even so, this still has nothing to do with ADM's.
So now I'm back at aero, given the total absence of disagreement over the same I'm still baffled why every other post in this thread somehow ends up with the author pointing out how ridiculous ADM's are. I do understand that you may have misunderstood the post discussed above, but other posters were well into the typical cycle of ranting about ADM's over and over again as though nobody could read the first where they complained about them. It's like stating that the sky is blue over, and over, and over again when nobody has stated otherwise.
12/6/07, 08:19 AM
#114
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First and foremost I would like to state that I would never pay an ADM, in fact I would never pay sticker. I went from dealer to dealer until I found one that would honor Z plan on my '05. If I hadn't found one, I wouldn't have purchased it.
That being said I'll defend the the dealer's right to ADMs. It's supply and demand. A free market at it's finest.
Whether or not anyone on this board feels the car is worth 15k over sticker, someone must. A lot of someone's must or the dealers wouldn't be charging it. And if in fact no one is willing to pay that, the car will sit there and eventually the dealer will lower or eliminate the ADM.
You don't see 15k ADMs on F250's which can easily sticker for just as much as the GT500 stickers for. Why? Cuz the dealers know that no one would pay it.
I guess I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The dealerships are all in existence for 1 reason: make money. If they can make more money they are going to jump at the chance.
It's the exact same reason that Ford doesn't offer cash back or special financing on the GT500. And no one has found any fault with Ford for that.
That being said I'll defend the the dealer's right to ADMs. It's supply and demand. A free market at it's finest.
Whether or not anyone on this board feels the car is worth 15k over sticker, someone must. A lot of someone's must or the dealers wouldn't be charging it. And if in fact no one is willing to pay that, the car will sit there and eventually the dealer will lower or eliminate the ADM.
You don't see 15k ADMs on F250's which can easily sticker for just as much as the GT500 stickers for. Why? Cuz the dealers know that no one would pay it.
I guess I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The dealerships are all in existence for 1 reason: make money. If they can make more money they are going to jump at the chance.
It's the exact same reason that Ford doesn't offer cash back or special financing on the GT500. And no one has found any fault with Ford for that.
12/6/07, 05:19 PM
#115
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
I think you are seeing something that isn't there. I said that the GT500 was a good deal at sticker, which I believe it to be and which you agreed to in your post. I also stated..........Two seperate statements there so lets break 'em down to clarify.
First, I said that Ford could have asked more for the car than they did. To make sure there is no room for misunderstanding here this has very little to do with anybody's opinion and a whole lot to do with the fact that GT500's likely wont be regularly moving at sticker before the end of the cars second year on the market. This is strictly a factual business observation...Ford could obviously have made the msrp higher and the cars would still have sold. I stated this in predlude to my thoughts on the actual, real world value of the car which were and are......
...If Ford chose to make the sticker price higher I would be willing to pay as much as 50k for a fully loaded GT500 coupe but no more. Put simply, I think your missing the part where I said... ...meaning if Ford themselves bumped the price of the car, say mid model year, at most I would be willing to drop about 2k dollars and change more than Ford is currently asking for on a fully loaded GT500 coupe, beyond that I wouldn't be interested. I then followed this by reiterating that I wouldn't pay an ADM on any car, ever.....primarily in an attempt to stave off the typical stream of posts regarding AMD's that follows any post regarding the price and/or value of the GT500 despite the fact that my post clearly doesn't condone or support ADM's in a form. Apparently it didn't work.
At no point in any of that is an ADM defended. And at no point in any thread did I ever show dismay that people weren't defending ADM's. I do point out that the GT500 is, IMO, a bargain at sticker and that I believe the car is even worth a couple grand more than current sticker price if Ford chose to ask for it...and when I say a couple grand I mean a couple grand not 5k, 10k, or even 15k. Even so, this still has nothing to do with ADM's.
So now I'm back at aero, given the total absence of disagreement over the same I'm still baffled why every other post in this thread somehow ends up with the author pointing out how ridiculous ADM's are. I do understand that you may have misunderstood the post discussed above, but other posters were well into the typical cycle of ranting about ADM's over and over again as though nobody could read the first where they complained about them. It's like stating that the sky is blue over, and over, and over again when nobody has stated otherwise.
First, I said that Ford could have asked more for the car than they did. To make sure there is no room for misunderstanding here this has very little to do with anybody's opinion and a whole lot to do with the fact that GT500's likely wont be regularly moving at sticker before the end of the cars second year on the market. This is strictly a factual business observation...Ford could obviously have made the msrp higher and the cars would still have sold. I stated this in predlude to my thoughts on the actual, real world value of the car which were and are......
...If Ford chose to make the sticker price higher I would be willing to pay as much as 50k for a fully loaded GT500 coupe but no more. Put simply, I think your missing the part where I said... ...meaning if Ford themselves bumped the price of the car, say mid model year, at most I would be willing to drop about 2k dollars and change more than Ford is currently asking for on a fully loaded GT500 coupe, beyond that I wouldn't be interested. I then followed this by reiterating that I wouldn't pay an ADM on any car, ever.....primarily in an attempt to stave off the typical stream of posts regarding AMD's that follows any post regarding the price and/or value of the GT500 despite the fact that my post clearly doesn't condone or support ADM's in a form. Apparently it didn't work.
At no point in any of that is an ADM defended. And at no point in any thread did I ever show dismay that people weren't defending ADM's. I do point out that the GT500 is, IMO, a bargain at sticker and that I believe the car is even worth a couple grand more than current sticker price if Ford chose to ask for it...and when I say a couple grand I mean a couple grand not 5k, 10k, or even 15k. Even so, this still has nothing to do with ADM's.
So now I'm back at aero, given the total absence of disagreement over the same I'm still baffled why every other post in this thread somehow ends up with the author pointing out how ridiculous ADM's are. I do understand that you may have misunderstood the post discussed above, but other posters were well into the typical cycle of ranting about ADM's over and over again as though nobody could read the first where they complained about them. It's like stating that the sky is blue over, and over, and over again when nobody has stated otherwise.
12/6/07, 06:33 PM
#116
SUPERCHARGED RED ROCKET ------------------Master-Moderator
First and foremost I would like to state that I would never pay an ADM, in fact I would never pay sticker. I went from dealer to dealer until I found one that would honor Z plan on my '05. If I hadn't found one, I wouldn't have purchased it.
That being said I'll defend the the dealer's right to ADMs. It's supply and demand. A free market at it's finest.
Whether or not anyone on this board feels the car is worth 15k over sticker, someone must. A lot of someone's must or the dealers wouldn't be charging it. And if in fact no one is willing to pay that, the car will sit there and eventually the dealer will lower or eliminate the ADM.
You don't see 15k ADMs on F250's which can easily sticker for just as much as the GT500 stickers for. Why? Cuz the dealers know that no one would pay it.
I guess I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The dealerships are all in existence for 1 reason: make money. If they can make more money they are going to jump at the chance.
It's the exact same reason that Ford doesn't offer cash back or special financing on the GT500. And no one has found any fault with Ford for that.
That being said I'll defend the the dealer's right to ADMs. It's supply and demand. A free market at it's finest.
Whether or not anyone on this board feels the car is worth 15k over sticker, someone must. A lot of someone's must or the dealers wouldn't be charging it. And if in fact no one is willing to pay that, the car will sit there and eventually the dealer will lower or eliminate the ADM.
You don't see 15k ADMs on F250's which can easily sticker for just as much as the GT500 stickers for. Why? Cuz the dealers know that no one would pay it.
I guess I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The dealerships are all in existence for 1 reason: make money. If they can make more money they are going to jump at the chance.
It's the exact same reason that Ford doesn't offer cash back or special financing on the GT500. And no one has found any fault with Ford for that.
Although there's nothing wrong with dealers making money for themselves..you also don't screw over your loyal, and longtime customers by making it nearly impossible for them to purchase the GT500..due to such huge ADM markups, in the process..
And perhaps there are those, who can afford paying $55-75k for the GT500..However, there's also the majority of those..who aren't CEO's of major corporations, that have disposable incomes to burn !
The bottom line is..If I'm going to spend close to 80k ! it's going to be towards either a Vette, Porsche, or Viper...And not just an SVT Cobra, with Carroll Shelby's name across it..
12/6/07, 08:45 PM
#117
First of all, thanks for taking the time to clear that up..However I really don't see what difference it would make, If Ford were asking $50k for MSRP instead of $40k ! perhaps the ADM markup wouldn't be 15-20K, but even at 10-15k markup..You're still looking at $65,000 before walking out the door..So I really don't understand, how you would be any further ahead..
ADM's don't seriously enter into the equation because they never had much to do with what I'm talking about. I did reference ADM's to point out that Ford could obviously have asked more for the car than they did, but all I really did there was to point out the obvious. My argument focused upon what the GT500 actually stickers for, the value it provides at that price point, and the actual value of the car IMO. ADM's have little or nothing to do with any of that, and since the ADM discussion has been done to death by this point it doesn't hold much interest for me.
12/6/07, 09:04 PM
#118
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I think the lesson to be learned here is that Ford now knows that they have a market for a $70,000 Mustang (not me, but anyways...) Ford should take this knowledge and make another high end Mustang.I think they can make the business case for the GT as the base V-8, the GT500 as a mid level and then a third model that can have an IRS, full Ford GT motor perhaps other cool gizmos and features like AWD, paddle shifters, etc... make this the halo for Ford. This would give buyers the ultimate Mustang while the GT500 could be sold to the people the car was intended for. I love the new s197 platform but I want more than a 300HP GT, yet can't justify 50+ for a GT500. I know this would never happen but I think its a cool idea that is in the realm of possibility.
12/6/07, 09:06 PM
#119
I think you're exactly right. Wether or not Ford chooses to do anything with that knowledge is another story.
12/6/07, 09:18 PM
#120
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I'm glad we finally agree on something lol. But seriously Ford should make a case for this now that the Ford GT is gone. Ford is the only 1 of the big 3 without a supercar(Viper, Z06). Granted the platform was never meant to be a supercar but Ford can make it close to Viper, Z06 territory with high end tech that people will pay for! I can just imagine what an IRS, AWD, aluminum 575-600HP Ford GT motor, paddle-shift Mustang would do at a premeir race-track! Like I said this will give the collector crowd a vehical, free up the GT500 for the masses and give Ford, a company on tough times something to show off to the world automotive press.