TX, much of your interest seems to be in the total potential of the motor beyond stock, the problem is that the vast majority of GT buyers will only ever do swap-in upgrades, if that. The GT is a volume seller, if it can match or better the stock LS3 with less weight and better mileagethen that is the superior market position. The bleeding edge of the performance envelope might not match up (though maybe it will, we haven't seen hard figures on the 5L TTDI), but most GT buyers never get the time or $$$ to make a run at that anyway. If you can go there and intend to, my hat's off to you and I would point you in the direction of Ford's crate motor catalog.

As for the lack of performance "options," huh? There are 3 factory SEs and at least 1.5 million aftermarket SEs and kits. I'll remind you that the Firehawk was actually an SLP car sold through GM dealers, in reality no different than how Roush and Shelby cars are offered through Ford dealers.

 

Moosetang already said it but I'll add to it, this isn't correct. 400hp is the absolute low end estimate right now with every credible/notable insider claiming that the engine makes something more than 400hp right now. How much more? We don't know that yet, but 425hp has been bounced around quite a bit and we know that it will be more than 400.

And the car is going to need every last one of those hp to propel it's 4000 lb mass. No way is this thing going to possess sufficient torque to overcome what is likely to be a 400lb plus wight disadvantage, particularly not when the mustang is almost certain to have equal or better hp numbers. I've been stating that a V8 Camaro would be a 4k lb car for months now, likewise indicating that the same folks who have consistently blast the 500hp GT500 for weighing 4000 lb will probably give the Camaro a pass on it's status as a chubber. And thus far we have been seeing exactly that. The V8 Camaro is going to be no faster than the LS2 GTO (hp to weight is nearly the same as are overall engine characteristics) and it will liekly cost about as much as that same GTO did. I'm not impressed.

Truthfully, I started out worried about the Camaro when the concept first appeared, but my fears have been largely assuaged by the fact that the Camaro is coming in overweight and overpriced. Even worse you can bet your last dollar that this thing is a money loser for GM even at the relatively high prices we are going to see. The Camaro is a lot more like the Challenger than the Mustang in every respect, and long term that probably isn't a good thing. I expect new Camaro will sell well for a year or two and then it'll go flat due to high prices, high fuel consumption, and limited appeal, at which time the pony car wars are likely to become a one horse show yet again.

 

so the 5.o is pushed back to 2011 now? gah

 

The 5.0L has always been slated to debut as a 2011MY offering.

 

I personally don't care one bit how much horsepower and torque the Mustang, Challenger, or Camaro make, nor how much they weigh. I only care about results at the dragstrip. To please the vast majority of the pony car audience, from the factory....

The entry level V6 offering should be able to run 15's in the 1/4 mile (at 92+ mph).
The entry level V8 offering should be able to run 13's in the 1/4 mile (at 100+ mph).
The SE V8 offering should be able to run 12's in the 1/4 mile (at 108+ mph).
The top dog performance offering should be able to run 11's in the 1/4 mile (at 116+ mph).

All need to be 2 door rear-wheel-drives with sporty/musclular styling. I don't care what mix of power vs weight they use as long as they can walk the talk at the drag strip.

 

Well, power to weight is what will let them walk the walk. That said, with a 400+hp, 5.0L V8 under the hood the 2011 Mustang GT is absolutely going to be a 12 second car which easily exceeds your request above. The question now is simply, how deep into the 12's will it go?

 

I will wait and see when the engine is produced. Take a look at the technology that Infiniti's 5.0L packs and it only makes 390hp. I think Ford is going to have a hard time getting 400hp out of a 5.0L AND return decent fuel economy. If Ford produces 400 truthful HP, I will be pleasantly suprised.


The Camaro SS will probably be around 3850 lbs. The specs should be out tomorrow. I am kind of disappointed that it's that heavy, much like I haven't been a fan of the GT500 due to its weight.


I have a bad feeling that the refreshed Stang is going to be a bump in price. I also see it gaining 50-75 lbs.

 

Edmunds posted some numbers, curb weight for the SS was 3900lbs and esitmates around 420 HP. Assuming a 5.0 GT weights 3600 lbs and has 400 HP, this is a driver's race. I like the GT because the SS has stupidly have 20" wheels. If the GT gets 3.73 gears, my money is on the GT. We'll have to see what comes out in a few months.

 

It will be interesting to see what the test times are on the Challenger RT & Camaro. Ford may only have to increase the horse power on the GT by 50 or 65.
I just feel a little embarrassed right now, because we aren't hearing anything out of Ford concerning the V8. It sort of looks like Ford is willing to sacrifice Mustang GT sales for a year or two. I know I wouldn't want a 300hp car, when I can get a 375 or 400hp car for the same price.

 

Not being sacastic, just curious--what makes you think GM will sell you a 416-HP Camaro for the same price as a 300-HP Mustang?

From the articles I've read, GM intends for the Camaro to be more 'upscale' than the Mustang (I interpret that to mean--more expensive.) In fact Motor Trend and Autoblog both have published blurbs from the GM camp stating there target is more the Challenger than the Mustang (yeah, right). Dodge will sell you a 425-HP Challenger, but not for the same money as a 300-HP Mustang GT. The base MSRP for the 425-HP model Challenger is $39k--the MSRP for a 2008 GT is 26,240.

Are you willing to pay $13,000 for the extra 125-HP (in a car that weighs 600-lbs more)? If you are (and some will), perhaps the question should be why pay $39k for a 425-HP car, when for just $2K more you can have a 500-HP car (GT500).

 

You are making far too many assumptions about what can't be done based on other companies engines, particularly when the engine you are using to debunk that possibility is within only ten hp off the 400 mark itself. There is absolutely no reason Ford can't wring more than 400hp from a DOHC 5.0L V8 and knock down decent fuel economy too.

Most of the major figures have already been leaked and what we know tells us that the V8 Camaro is ~3900lb. My only problem with your 3850lb estimate is that you consistently argue that Ford couldn't conceivably build a 400hp 5.0L, but go out of your way to give the Camaro the benefit of the doubt by predicting a 3850lb car? The reality of the situation? If the V8 Camaro weighs 100lb more than the claimed weight for the V6 car it will come in at 3850lb. And since GM's claimed weights for cars this big are almost always noticeably optimistic as evidenced by cars like the G8 were probably looking at a best case, real world weight scenario of 3900lb and change.....loaded Camaro coupes are almost certain to be genuine 4000lb cars.

A bump in price is possible but not a certainty, and while a bump on weight is a given for the 2011MY car we are still going to end up with a 400lb lighter car if not more than that.

 

The Challenger RT(375hp) is starting around $30k. We will have to wait until 4pm today to see what the Camaro V8 starts at.

 

So is Ford going to feature an infinite variable valve lift system? Nissan's "most advanced V8 in the US" isn't rated at 400hp. See where my skepticism comes from. Ford has never produced a modular motor with this much hp. I am keeping the faith, but I think that when all is said and done the hp rating will be 375ish hp.


GM is releasing more specs today at 4PM EST. My prediction of the 3850lbs weight is based off the G8 V8. The Camaro should be a bit lighter due to it’s decreased size.

Ford will bump the price. We are getting more content.

 

I'd be surprised if they release prices today.
Sometimes you see that slightly before they are available.

 

Well, at least we know what the Challenger(s) are going for.

 

Specs are out for the camaro. 422hp408tq at 3860 lbs for the manual. 400/395 for the auto at 3910? Gas mileage estimated at 15/23. V6 has 300 hp and DI. Danged if doesnt weigh in at 3750.
These are some heavy cars. I will be temped if Ford does not deliver the goods for 2011. I may have to learn to live with the overweight pig.

 

Given The Current Fuel Situation Ford will Likely Be Looking More Towards MPG than Horsepower. I think the Specs will be up in the Air till the Last Minute.

KC

 

Ford is really going to have it's hands full with Chevy and Dodge. Both Chevy and Dodge have HP numbers that Ford can't touch at the present.
It will be interesting to see how Ford responds.
I'm really liking the Challenger at this point in time and if Ford can't respond with a better offering than what they have at present....well I'll be driving a Dodge next summer.

 

Hell the Camaro's V6 is putting out the same HP as the Mustang's GT. At this point in time Ford is lagging well behind. Dodge and Chevy have more powerful cars with much better standard features.

 

Thank you so much for the first paragraph... It just boggles my mind on how a lot of folk here say that it's impossible for Ford to squeeze 400 hp out of 5 liters.

I know it's not the same engine and it's been said before but does anyone remember the Saleen P.J. Mustang??? Ford can do anything they want with that motor. Well IMHO if folk want to set theirselves down for a let up then so be it. The "five oh" is back and I think Ford is gonna bring the noise!!!